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Horu Ishayuki

Leviathan

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This is what Leviathan should be.

 

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This is version seems a bit more fair. He still shuts down effects like Mirror Force and Magic Cylinder. But his multi-attack is removed, his ATK depends on the Level/Rank of monsters banished for his summon, and he only negates effects that would actually affect him.

 

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Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set. Can only be Special Summoned (from your hand) by Banishing all WATER monsters in your GY after your LP would be reduced to 0 as the result of a card effect or attack controlled by your opponent. The Special Summon of this card cannot be negated. As long as this card remains face-up on the field: You cannot lose the Duel. Neither player can activate any effects in response to this card's Summon, attack or effect(s). The ATK of this card is equal to the total combined Level/Rank of any monster(s) Banished for its Summon ×500. If an effect controlled by either player would affect this card: Negate the activation of that effect.

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I get it thematically, but I'm honestly not a fan design-wise.  Unaffected by anything + an (easy) ability to have over 5000 ATK ...how do you expect the opponent to be able to get rid of it?

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The idea is for it to be virtually unkillable. But in theory, if you can hit it with something big enough, you technically win the game since your opponent has to reduce their LP to 0 to summon it. I was thinking about having tributes or banishing for the summon but those aren't really much of a drawback since swarming is easy and banishing is that much easier. I was actually going for something that would be unstoppable. But I honestly doubt anyone would willingly give up their LP unless they were 100% sure they were going to win.

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I mean, as soon as you get 4-5 cards in grave, you win since no conventional cards besides Utopia stuff can run it over. Getting 4-5 cards in the GY isn't hard.

Just because it comes with a possible "you lose" button, that doesn't really make it fair when this card can easily win you the duel the turn you Summon it.

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1 hour ago, Tinkerer said:

I mean, as soon as you get 4-5 cards in grave, you win since no conventional cards besides Utopia stuff can run it over. Getting 4-5 cards in the GY isn't hard.

Just because it comes with a possible "you lose" button, that doesn't really make it fair when this card can easily win you the duel the turn you Summon it.

 

Not only unfair, this is also unfun. This card is so easily run over by Honest (or Atem with his protagonist shenanigans - hello divine serpent Geh) that it would be pretty toxic, both for who's playing against it and didn't pick up Honest and for who's playing it and is getting Honest'ed constantly. In the end I just think nobody would play this because reaching 20,000 ATK won't matter at all when a single card can surpass that barrier.

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9 hours ago, Kazuchika Okada said:

 

Not only unfair, this is also unfun. This card is so easily run over by Honest (or Atem with his protagonist shenanigans - hello divine serpent Geh) that it would be pretty toxic, both for who's playing against it and didn't pick up Honest and for who's playing it and is getting Honest'ed constantly. In the end I just think nobody would play this because reaching 20,000 ATK won't matter at all when a single card can surpass that barrier.

I intended it to be like the Leviathan of Jewish folklore that can only be defeated by something that is actually more powerful than it. I also imagine that summoning a beast of that magnitude would likely require you to pay the ultimate price. The card wasn't intended to be 100% fair. It was intended to be the near invincible beast of legend. Honestly, I imagine that playing it would have to be a win/lose situation. But yeah, the idea is to beat it through battle. So yeah, if you can typically beat it in terms of ATK/DEF, then you actually deserve that victory.

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1 hour ago, Horu Ishayuki said:

I intended it to be like the Leviathan of Jewish folklore that can only be defeated by something that is actually more powerful than it. I also imagine that summoning a beast of that magnitude would likely require you to pay the ultimate price. The card wasn't intended to be 100% fair. It was intended to be the near invincible beast of legend. Honestly, I imagine that playing it would have to be a win/lose situation. But yeah, the idea is to beat it through battle. So yeah, if you can typically beat it in terms of ATK/DEF, then you actually deserve that victory.

 

I can understand your intentions and what you mean, I really do, but it didn't really translate to this card. It can easily be beaten by cards like Honest, The Wicked Avatar (if you attack into it obviously, since effects can't be activated when it attacks), or the like. The thing is, Yu-Gi-Oh isn't so much about battling as it is about being strategic, which is why side decking exists. The fact that something like A/D Changer is able to attack and then activate Honest's effect to destroy it means this card can actually be defeated by something waaaaaaaaay weaker than it. Though to be fair and honest, that can be easily fixed by changing part of its effect to just render the opponent completely unable to activate any effects during the Battle Phase. Or having the ability to negate one effect per turn. One of those two things would already make this creature of legend be more realistically unbeatable. 

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I... I think you both might be misunderstanding the gravity of how obscenely powerful this is. The "you lose" literally does not matter since the turn you summon this you will win. If someone summons this and doesn't win that turn, then they were either forced to summon this early or they were playing really badly. Honest won't stop this from killing you because "Neither player can activate any effects in response to this card's ... Attack".

Once you get this over 5000 ATK, you essentially have a monster that: 1. "Cannot" be killed by battle, 2. Is unaffected by everything, 3. Can clear the entirely of the opponent's board, 4. Stops you from losing to burn/mill/alternative win conditions.

Its only reasonable counters (Kaijus, Utopia Double/Utopia the Lightning, Moon Mirror Shield, Honest, etc.) can only be used the turn after this card is Summoned. However, if the opponent has 2 or more monsters when you summon this (and you have 5+ cards in grave), you will win. Period.

...and the most terrifying thing about this is that it is generic. Put three copies in pretty much any deck and you can drop it and win against pretty much any other deck.

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1 hour ago, Kazuchika Okada said:

 

I can understand your intentions and what you mean, I really do, but it didn't really translate to this card. It can easily be beaten by cards like Honest, The Wicked Avatar (if you attack into it obviously, since effects can't be activated when it attacks), or the like. The thing is, Yu-Gi-Oh isn't so much about battling as it is about being strategic, which is why side decking exists. The fact that something like A/D Changer is able to attack and then activate Honest's effect to destroy it means this card can actually be defeated by something waaaaaaaaay weaker than it. Though to be fair and honest, that can be easily fixed by changing part of its effect to just render the opponent completely unable to activate any effects during the Battle Phase. Or having the ability to negate one effect per turn. One of those two things would already make this creature of legend be more realistically unbeatable. 

I appreciate this input actually and I'll consider that aspect. But it really doesn't seem fair to shut down any possible effect your opponent could make during their turn. I mean, the Leviathan of legend was eventually defeated by a much stronger force. So shutting down the opponent's battle phase doesn't really seem fair since this card can essentially launch up to 7 attacks with no cares in the world.

 

15 minutes ago, Tinkerer said:

I... I think you both might be misunderstanding the gravity of how obscenely powerful this is. The "you lose" literally does not matter since the turn you summon this you will win. If someone summons this and doesn't win that turn, then they were either forced to summon this early or they were playing really badly. Honest won't stop this from killing you because "Neither player can activate any effects in response to this card's ... Attack".

Once you get this over 5000 ATK, you essentially have a monster that: 1. "Cannot" be killed by battle, 2. Is unaffected by everything, 3. Can clear the entirely of the opponent's board, 4. Stops you from losing to burn/mill/alternative win conditions.

Its only reasonable counters (Kaijus, Utopia Double/Utopia the Lightning, Moon Mirror Shield, Honest, etc.) can only be used the turn after this card is Summoned. However, if the opponent has 2 or more monsters when you summon this (and you have 5+ cards in grave), you will win. Period.

...and the most terrifying thing about this is that it is generic. Put three copies in pretty much any deck and you can drop it and win against pretty much any other deck.

That is a very disturbing thought actually. Besides, it's Original ATK/DEF is 0 so that makes it searchable by virtually anything. Though, you can only summon 1 unless you have a steady supply of LP gain cards.

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To easy to summon for such monster of its class. The risk of losing in a event that this is get ridden from the field is nearly impossible (this card is so easy to summon its practically an establish board on its own thus bypass Nibiru). With 1-2 self mill such as reasoning (which is stupidly easy) you guarantee 10.000+ atk monster on your 1st turn with capability of dishing FTK-OTK damage on 2nd attack completely uninterupted. If anything multiple attack is a flavor fail for biblical leviathan IMO since its not multiheaded snake. The banish effect is either useless given the card OTK nature OR another "kick the dog" troupe via destroying opponent remaining setup, which is too much for the already thin sportmanship set by the card other effects. All in all its not fun card 

It probally more acceptable if instead:

you make this card as an expensive hand trap that prevent you from losing solely from 0 LP that must and only activate when your LP down to 0 reactively in a specific condition (probs to punish opponent over-extending greed). Fitting the biblical text which only fools invoke such creature. 

It only has anti negation for its summon and anti lose effect

Get rid of its multi attack and piercing trait. Former is a flavor fail and both are FTK-OTK fuel 

Get rid the banish effect, since its has such polarizing effect 

Either lower the stat gain or find another stat gain method that much more reactive (probs a bit opponent reliant) 

if you worried that the card will too weak to fulfill its duty as the super anti-lose boss  especially after you "investing" so much in difficult combination of your effort and baiting your opponent's hubris. Probs make anti-lose effect a partially time-based lingering effect. So even when its kaiju'ed or S39'ed you still have a short chance to summon another one to prolong the game. In tandem with that a bit of risky/expendive recurssion effect should be good to keep the "unbeatable" feel (since its just comeback after beating) 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Jolly Glot the III said:

To easy to summon for such monster of its class. The risk of losing in a event that this is get ridden from the field is nearly impossible (this card is so easy to summon its practically an establish board on its own thus bypass Nibiru). With 1-2 self mill such as reasoning (which is stupidly easy) you guarantee 10.000+ atk monster on your 1st turn with capability of dishing FTK-OTK damage on 2nd attack completely uninterupted. If anything multiple attack is a flavor fail for biblical leviathan IMO since its not multiheaded snake. The banish effect is either useless given the card OTK nature OR another "kick the dog" troupe via destroying opponent remaining setup, which is too much for the already thin sportmanship set by the card other effects. All in all its not fun card 

It probally more acceptable if instead:

you make this card as an expensive hand trap that prevent you from losing solely from 0 LP that must and only activate when your LP down to 0 reactively in a specific condition (probs to punish opponent over-extending greed). Fitting the biblical text which only fools invoke such creature. 

It only has anti negation for its summon and anti lose effect

Get rid of its multi attack and piercing trait. Former is a flavor fail and both are FTK-OTK fuel 

Get rid the banish effect, since its has such polarizing effect 

Either lower the stat gain or find another stat gain method that much more reactive (probs a bit opponent reliant) 

if you worried that the card will too weak to fulfill its duty as the super anti-lose boss  especially after you "investing" so much in difficult combination of your effort and baiting your opponent's hubris. Probs make anti-lose effect a partially time-based lingering effect. So even when its kaiju'ed or S39'ed you still have a short chance to summon another one to prolong the game. In tandem with that a bit of risky/expendive recurssion effect should be good to keep the "unbeatable" feel (since its just comeback after beating) 

 

 

I might consider making a playable Leviathan later. But for now, this is pretty much based on the Leviathan that is described as having 7 heads. I am well aware that this version is broken and pretty much does the leg work of shutting down the entire board for the purpose of destroying everything in its path.

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3 hours ago, Tinkerer said:

I... I think you both might be misunderstanding the gravity of how obscenely powerful this is. The "you lose" literally does not matter since the turn you summon this you will win. If someone summons this and doesn't win that turn, then they were either forced to summon this early or they were playing really badly. Honest won't stop this from killing you because "Neither player can activate any effects in response to this card's ... Attack".

Once you get this over 5000 ATK, you essentially have a monster that: 1. "Cannot" be killed by battle, 2. Is unaffected by everything, 3. Can clear the entirely of the opponent's board, 4. Stops you from losing to burn/mill/alternative win conditions.

Its only reasonable counters (Kaijus, Utopia Double/Utopia the Lightning, Moon Mirror Shield, Honest, etc.) can only be used the turn after this card is Summoned. However, if the opponent has 2 or more monsters when you summon this (and you have 5+ cards in grave), you will win. Period.

...and the most terrifying thing about this is that it is generic. Put three copies in pretty much any deck and you can drop it and win against pretty much any other deck.

 

That is a fair thought though I find it very unlikely for this boy to be a "You win" clause 100% of the time. The most unfair of its effects which is the unanswerable summon, attack and effects is what guarantees that it will win 90% of the time and being realistic, probably would never go through if the card became real. If only its summoning was what couldn't be answered for example this card already becomes trash and loses to things like Waboku, so I wouldn't really overhype how obscenely powerful this card is since it's not even real. I'm very aware of its power but I'd rather look at what it's supposed to be than to what it is. The gimmick is that it's a big boss thing that can only be defeated by what's much stronger than it. Getting kinda metaphorical, this kinda reminds me of those "fake difficulty" bosses where their stage has a lot of thingies that without those, the boss is a joke. Considering the possibility to have A/D Changer with Honest (as my prime example that I'll always use, fite me) run over it exists, it seems like having Spell Speed 4 on everything it does contributes to its strength in a fake way. My original suggestion of changing the "Spell Speed 4 on everything" to some kind of negate would still be pretty viable option to having it be a fairer and possibly stronger ultimate boss thing.

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9 minutes ago, Horu Ishayuki said:

based on the Leviathan that is described as having 7 heads.

Being a kinda religious otaku (if such term ever justified). You mixed up the book of Job's Leviathan with Book of Revelation's Dragon form of Satan. While in context of that Satan form its much more make sense for the multi-attack effect, its still unfair for the card effect as the entire package. The only solution to this multi attack if its has its own penalty effects along side it 

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16 hours ago, Dr. Jolly Glot the III said:

Being a kinda religious otaku (if such term ever justified). You mixed up the book of Job's Leviathan with Book of Revelation's Dragon form of Satan. While in context of that Satan form its much more make sense for the multi-attack effect, its still unfair for the card effect as the entire package. The only solution to this multi attack if its has its own penalty effects along side it 

Well, Leviathan is the symbol of envy. But his mate was slain by God due to the fact that if they were to multiply, man would never be able to stand against it (This establishes Leviathan's place at the top of the food chain, and also establishes that God created something so powerful that it actually took his own hand to defeat it). So on that note, Leviathan is far above the dragon of Revelation in terms of raw power. Also this version is based on the Leviathan mentioned in Psalms.

EDIT: This version of Leviathan pretty much establishes what it is. But I gotta figure out how to make this into a playable card. Since above replies do make the point that Insta-Kill cards aren't exactly the right direction. Also, there comes the fact that this version can be summoned by effects like Self-Destruct Button or any effect that drops one or both players LP to 0 and Leviathan prevents a loss so that becomes an issue. I established that this beast is insanely powerful and has no issues winning a game. But typically, if your opponent get's a turn after you summon this and you get hit with something like Honest or Utopia, you should probably take a good look at how badly you just screwed up (given that you pretty much played a beast that literally barely falls short of an Instant Win Condition).

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3 hours ago, TheWanderingMist said:

Neat, but Leviathan should really be a Sea Serpent, seeing as it's THE archetypal Sea Serpent after which all others are patterned. 

I was actually considering it. But maybe later when I release a set based around him.

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