BKSS gives me a fucking headache

[GenzoTheHarpist]

did you know herald of orange can activate during the damage step? cuz i sure as hell didnt. cost me a god damn game too.

 

If you seriously lost a game because of Hearld of Orange Light' date=' lol@you.

[/quote']

 

That herald of perfection guy in the YCS won plenty of games by using it.

[evilfusion]

He already explained the game was riding on a Morphing Jar because he runs Empty Jar and had next to no options, but it got negated. It's still a stupid reason to say "Gah! Herald Orange is a card I need to b*tch about!"

 

Herald of Perfection is an amazing card. It's all the Heralds mixed into one 1800/2800 6 star ritual.

[Tronta]

herald isnt what i'm jabroniing about. my problem is inconsistent rulings. they need to make an amendment to the rules instead of just making an ever increasing pile of 'special exception' cards, based on little more than personal preference of konami judges.

 

and my game was riding on the jar activation. i was taking a big lp hit that turn, but planned to skin by with little more than a thousand and a fresh hand. i had a set shallow grave to get back jar, and was going to raise some funking hell. the negation really pissed me off because i figured it'd be a safe bet activating it damage step. i also didnt really have other options.

 

herald isnt really a problem. its a better divine wrath, but its extremely costly and requires a supremely dedicated deck. i'm cool with that. in the past i've gotten pissed off about sheet like war chariot though. essentially a +0 divine wrath, its pretty jank. but even then i wouldnt be so pissed if there wasnt the chariot loop. its actually kind of disturbing to me that the meta is so fast that a free divine wrath every turn isnt considered problematic enough to warrant an errata/ruling/listing.

 

and why is losing to an effect negation considered bad? what if he was throwing down kristya, and i tried to ddcrow, only to be negated by orange? then lets say the kristya locked me down long enough to beat me down. is that a bad play on my part? do we still lol@me? a well timed negation on a pivotal card can easily throw a game in a hundred situations. funk, he could have even orang'd a traggs/gorz i was using to save my life. am i still a bad player?

 

its annoying when idiots use bad arguments to mock people, simply for the sake of mocking them. weak.

[evilfusion]

I personally don't lol@you, since losing because of a well-timed negation effect is typical. See, unlike in the anime, a player losing does not mean that player is a weak duelist and the winner is a strong duelist, something a lot of people on this site seem to have forgotten. There are dozens of factors why a win or loss happened. I just think you're blowing the incident out of proportion, since Herald of Orange is probably one of the least problematic cards you'll ever run across, and if you were playing against Heralds, having crucial cards negated...that's what the deck is supposed to do.

 

Originally, you stated Green and Purple Heralds couldn't activate during Damage Step and were peeved Orange evidently could, but since then you've corrected that.

 

What I need to know to not make an assumption of your point is for you to list cards with inconsistent rulings as an example. Your original example was Herald of Orange Light, yet no one seemed to see a reason why effect negators can't be used during the Damage Step, as was the issue, and every example involving an effect negator was determined to be able to be used in Damage Step. That means they aren't Special Exceptions, but the typical quality of such an effect.

 

As an attempt to return to your topic, I guess, I myself have already mentioned cards like Hero Signal, Snake Whistle, Rise of the Snake Deity, and Soul Rope. The only difference between the four is that Hero Signal specifically states battle and the other 3 do not. However, since Hero Signal can't be used when a monster dies by an effect, I'm at a loss to explain why, if the latter 3 can't be used during the Damage Step, that the cards weren't written as "When a monster is destroyed by a card effect" or something to that effect. Actually, if it can't be used during the Damage Step, things like Maneater Bug will also get past them, because that activates during the Damage Step.

 

Things like that annoy the hell out of me, because, as said earlier, there is no on-card indication that it can't be used during the Damage Step and that BADLY hurts their playability. They're signs of cards that could have been so good, yet a ruling butchered their usability. It probably doesn't help that the anime used those cards as a casual player would assume they could be used, and nothing noticeable changed in the transition from anime to RL, except for the ruling. Yugi used Soul Rope when monsters died in battle. Viper/Cobra used Rise and Snake Whistle when Vennominon/a different monster were killed in battle, respectively. With the RL ruling, the cards in question are pretty much trash.

 

Feel free to expand on other inconsistent rulings.

[Tronta]

i thought you said green and purple could first.

 

anyway, here's my issue as i see it:

 

During the Damage Step of the Battle Phase' date=' the damage is calculated from the declared attack. If the defending monster is face-down, it is flipped face-up first during this Phase. If the defending monster has a Flip Effect, it is applied after Damage Calculation, but still within the Damage Step. The Flip Effect does not affect monsters that have already been destroyed as a result of Damage Calculation. This includes the monster itself, so a flipped "Penguin Soldier" that was destroyed in battle cannot select itself as a target since it has already been destroyed.

 

In the Damage Step, only certain cards and effects may be activated. These include:

 

[b']* Counter Trap Cards ("Solemn Judgment", "Dark Bribe").

* Normal Trap Cards, Continuous Trap Cards, and Quick-Play Spell Cards that alter the ATK and/or DEF of one or more monsters on the field ("Blast with Chain", "Rush Recklessly", "Castle Walls", "Reinforcements", "Shrink").

* Mandatory Trigger Effects ("King Tiger Wanghu").

* Flip Monster Effects (which are mandatory by nature) ("Cyber Jar").

* Some Quick Effect monster effects ("Kuriboh", "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8").

* Any card whose text specifically says it may be activated during the Damage Step ("Nutrient Z").

* Cards that do not meet the activation criteria, but whom Konami/UDE have stated may be activated in the Damage Step ("Null and Void"). [/b]

 

Cards that Special Summon monsters when destroyed in battle, such as "Shining Angel", "Mystic Tomato" and "Pyramid Turtle" all Special Summon monsters during the Damage Step, and as such, "Torrential Tribute" and "Bottomless Trap Hole" cannot be used against them, since these cards cannot be activated in the Damage Step. Same also applied when "Cyber Jar's" Flip Effect is activated when flipped up as a result of battle. For the same reasons, "Royal Decree" cannot be used against Trap Cards like "Skull Dice" in the Damage Step, since it does not alter ATK or DEF.

 

 

here is the criteria for activation during the damage step. and it mostly makes sense. they treat damage step like a high speed area, where only the fastest cards, mandatory cards and cards directly relating to the damage calculation can be activated.

 

-counter traps, being spell speed 3, can obviously go off whenever they want.

-flip effects and searchers and other such compulsory spell speed 1 effects get to go off because theyre forced to.

-spell speed 2 cards are only allowed if they directly pertain to damage calculation, ex. shrink, skull dice.

-certain bkss cards like null and void, i dont really have a problem with. theyre few enough in number (this is the only one that i'm aware of) and no one runs it anyway. i'm sure there's some justification for it, too.

-cards that say they can go off in damage step. and usually involve damage calculation in some way anyway.

-then you have quick effects.

now, the text specifically says 'some' quick effects. but looking into this i realize that there is almost no spell speed 2 monster that cant activate in damage step, assuming it doesnt have specific timing elsewhere. this is an inconsistency i have a problem with. somewhere between attack modifiers like honest and negation cards like horus, they seem to have forgotten to draw the line. so we have a growing pile of cards neatly tucked under the ambiguous category called "some quick effect monsters". that's pretty funking stupid. but i'd be fine if they let everyone and their grandmother into the damage step club, as long as it made sense how they do it. but if all spell speed 2 monsters get in, why dont all spell speed 2 spell/traps get in?

[evilfusion]

Wait, DD Crow CAN activate in Damage Step? I didn't check the ruling on that myself, but I said earlier that it can't, because it doesn't negate, affect battle/damage, or ATK/DEF. If there's a ruling that it can, that's a crappy ruling that is utterly nonsensical. At least the other Quick Effects mentioned made sense.

[Tronta]

oh wait, nevermind. you cant. i thought you had said that it could. and i assumed because it's ddcrow, funk this game etc.

 

alright, well that argument is overturned.

 

 

okay, so i guess with that resolved my problem is that konami needs to make an addition into the damage step that says 'effect monsters dealing with negation get to go off whenever they please because they're spell speed infinity'

 

actually, there's still a discrepancy:

if orange herald can negate during the damage step, why cant oppression?

how about activating royal decree during the damage step? why cant i do that? i can purple herald all i want, but i cant decree?

[darkwolf777]

actually' date=' there's still a discrepancy:

if orange herald can negate during the damage step, why cant oppression?

how about activating royal decree during the damage step? why cant i do that? i can purple herald all i want, but i cant decree?

[/quote']

 

I made a topic about this. A General Ruling i've decided on is "Quick Monster Effects that can negate CAN be used during the Damage Step".

 

Royal Oppression is not a Trigger Effect, it is an Ignition Effect via a Condition. A player activates it themselves, so it is not a Trigger Effect, it is an Ignition Effect. In this case, a Player cannot activate Royal Oppression during the Damage Step because the Ignition Effect of it does not modify ATK/DEF.

[evilfusion]

Simple. Oppression deals with summons. Cards that chain to summons (Torrential, Bottomless) can't be used during the Damage Step. Orange Herald deals with effects, not summons. Royal Decree is a continuous trap that doesn't negate ACTIVATION of spells/traps/effects, whereas the Heralds do. The cards that can chain to summons and the like during the Damage Step are Counter Traps.

 

It's all because of the class of card. The Damage Step restricts cards that don't affect ATK/DEF, and you know the other rules. Quick Effects that negate can be used in the damage step, and Traps that negate in the SAME fashion are Counter Traps. Decree just negates the effects, not the activation, and the Damage Step is restricted to only certain types of effects, of which Decree is not in the same class.

 

Consider Quick Effects to be just under Counter Traps in terms of speed. They're Spell Speed 2 and so can be chained to with the other Spell Speed 2 effects. However, some of them, particularly in the categories we've already mentioned, can be used during the Damage Step, which permits relevent Quick Effects, whereas it denies most other Spell Speed 2 cards(Decree/Oppression).

 

Afterthought Edit: And what he said about Trigger/Ignition effects, which in game rule terminology, is probably more accurate than my statements.

[Tronta]

@wolf

orange herald doesnt modify ATK/DEF either.

 

and by that logic, herald is something of an ignition card as well. and according to the wikia, oppression is just classified as continuous.

 

furthermore, ignition effects are by definition spell speed 1. oppression has to be considered a trigger, because it directly chains onto the activation of cards like monster reborn and crystal abundance.

 

it has the same speed as herald.

 

 

 

 

edit:

beating a dead horse, but oppression /does/ negate. and so can herald. the specific comparison i was making would be something in terms of herald vs oppression in negating gorz or traggs or tomato.

 

 

 

edit:

looking at this i find a rather arbitrary line drawn between quick effects and trigger effects. this is, i suppose, the dividing line. so once more they need to modify the damage step rules to specify that spell speed 2 rulings only apply rigidly to spells and traps. spell speed 2 monsters get to activate if they follow spell speed 2 or if they negate things. Because Konami Says So.

[evilfusion]

All Trap cards are Spell Speed 2, continuous or not.

 

One difference: The Heralds negate the activation of Spells, Traps, or Effects. Oppression deals with Summons. I think that is what puts it into a different class of negation effect, one that cannot be used during the Damage Step. If there was a Herald that can negate summons...then rulings would go to hell on that matter. You cannot, for one reason or another, stop a Summon during the Damage Step without a Counter Trap. You can, however, negate Spells, Traps, or Effects using a Quick Effect monster. There is no Quick Effect monster that negates Summons, to my knowledge, and so I conclude that the ruling in that matter is consistent. Chaining to a Summon is not allowed during the Damage Step without a Counter Trap.

 

You can't typically chain to a summon, anyway, even if you could stop it somehow. You have to use DD Crow BEFORE the player attempts to summon DAD. Most cards, Oppression included, can only be activated AFTER a summon is completed, Oppression just going one step further and nullifying the summon, which prevents priority from being claimed.

 

Don't they already have the rules where only S/Ts directly involving ATK/DEF are allowed? No Spell Speed 2 cards, aside from Quick Effects, have the power to negate cards the way a Counter Trap does. Spell Speed 3 is strictly limited to Counter Traps.

 

If they specifically say that Quick Effect monsters that affect ATK/DEF (Honest), or have a specific timing during Damage Calculation (Kuriboh), or negate a card (Herald) can be used during the Damage Step, which is what we're currently taking as true, then what cards slip under inconsistent rulings? I say the biggest problem is how vague the rules of Quick Effect monsters are in regards to the Damage Step. As you pointed out, the Wiki states the rules is "Some" Quick Effect monsters.

[darkwolf777]

orange herald doesnt modify ATK/DEF either.

 

and by that logic' date=' herald is something of an ignition card as well. and according to the wikia, oppression is just classified as continuous.

 

furthermore, ignition effects are by definition spell speed 1. oppression has to be considered a trigger, because it directly chains onto the activation of cards like monster reborn and crystal abundance.

 

it has the same speed as herald.

 

 

 

edit:

looking at this i find a rather arbitrary line drawn between quick effects and trigger effects. this is, i suppose, the dividing line.

 

so once more they need to modify the damage step rules to specify that spell speed 2 rulings only apply to spells and traps. spell speed 2 monsters get to activate whenever they please.

[/quote']

 

Please Consider what I said Tronta.

 

Orange Herald is indeed a Quick Effect, but it is a Quick Effect that Negates. As generalized (by myself anyway), THESE can be used during the Damage Step.

 

You can't say ALL Quick Effect monsters can be used whenever. D.D. Crow for example CANNOT be used during the Damage Step. Its a Quick Effect and Speed Spell 2, but it is not a "Quick Monster Effect that Negates", so it cannot be activated.

 

Next, you're confusing what I mean by Ignition (or should i say Ignition-Like effects actually). D.D. Crow for example is an Ignition-Like Quick Effect. It does not activate through a Trigger. A player chooses to use its effect. Flipping a face-down card on the field face-up is an action a player chose to do (which I also refer to as Ignition). This is what I'm referring to. There are two types of Quick Effects: Ignition-Like and Trigger-like in nature. I know Yugioh's term for "Ignition" is, so I probably SHOULD call it something else to make it understandable and not be confused, but in the end, it might just be the correct terminology x.x

 

Next: Royal Oppression as I mentioned is not a Trigger Effect, but is chosen to be activated in response to a player choosing to activate it. "My Body As A Shield" is another example. It is not a Trigger Effect. You activate it in response to something, but since you're choosing to activate its effect, that makes it Ignition in nature, not a Trigger. Triggers are activated automatically without input from the user.

 

The thing that you CAN argue though is what determines a "Trigger" vs an "Ignition that has a Condition for activation.". Perhaps the wording of the effect plays a role in this. Perhaps if Royal Oppression was worded "When a Special Summon of a monster and/or the effect of a card that Special Summons is activated, you can pay 800 Life Poitns to negate the monster/effect and destroy it." then I could consider it a Trigger Effect. The way its currently worded is more Ignition by nature.

[Tronta]

ignition to me implies that it isnt being chained. oppression chains. i dont think we can ascribe the qualities of this or that effect type onto cards that already have a specified effect type.

 

 

i still argue that orange herald versus royal oppression have the same basic logic in a case like mystic tomato. they both attempt to negate an effect that special summons, with the same speed.

 

 

so fine, my problem had been reduced to the fact that they need to update the rules to specify the quick effect monsters that can activate in damage step

[darkwolf777]

ignition to me implies that it isnt being chained. oppression chains. i dont think we can ascribe the qualities of this or that effect type onto cards that already have a specified effect type.

 

 

i still argue that orange herald versus royal oppression have the same basic logic in a case like mystic tomato. they both attempt to negate an effect that special summons' date=' with the same speed.

 

 

so fine, my problem had been reduced to the fact that they need to update the rules to specify the quick effect monsters that can activate in damage step

[/quote']

 

Your scope is too closed, You're viewing "Ignition" as simply am effect that is Spell Speed 1. My definition of "Ignition" is an effect that a player chooses to activate (either by flipping face-up or activating an effect on a face-up card or card in the hand) that does not respond to a Trigger to activate it (there is a difference between a Trigger and a condition for activation)

 

Examples:

Any act of flipping a face-down Spell/Trap card face-up to activate it. (Activating a face-down Trap Card face-up for example)

Playing a Spell Card from your Hand.

Choosing to activate of a face-up card that doesn't require a trigger (Either a Monster Effect (i.e. Snipe Hunter), a Continuous Trap (i.e. Ultimate Offering), a Continuous Spell (i.e. The World Tree), a Field Spell (i.e. The Plant-Monster summoning effect of Black Garden (The 2nd Effect, not the 1/2 ATK/Token effect) or a card effect that you choose to activate in the Graveyard (i.e. Plaguespreader Zombie)...

 

Basically, any effect that does not activate through a trigger is otherwise an Ignition of some sort, where the player chooses on their own to activate the card, not the game forcing the effect to activate.

 

Heck, Machina Armored Unit, an otherwise Spell Speed 1 card being a Continuous Spell, has an effect that can be used during the Damage Step, which would otherwise have to be Spell Speed 2 or higher. A card's effect can be Spell Speed 2 when the card type is otherwise Spell Speed 1? Perhaps Spell Speed 1 only refers to effects you can activate only during your Main Phases. Sure you can only activate Machina Armored Unit (the card itself) during a Main Phase, but its effect that activates is must faster than Spell Speed 1.

 

With my previous generalizations, both Card of Safe Return and Inmato have proven my generalizations wrong. I've revised one of my previous generalizations to try and break it down some but who knows how correct it is:

 

Trigger Effects of Monsters (both Optional and Mandatory) and MANDATORY Trigger effects of Continuous Spell/Continuous Trap/Field Spell Cards that do not apply to the above rules (See my Momiji Generalization Topic) CAN activate during the Damage Step. OPTIONAL Trigger and Trigger-Like Effects of Spell/Trap/Quick Effects (like Inmato) that do not apply to the above rules CANNOT be used during the Damage Step (unless explicitly states it or said Optional Trigger only activates during the Damage Step (such as Machina Armored Unit to a machine destroyed by battle.) or modify ATK/DEF)

 

How does that sound? Maybe its more correct than what i've been saying, though it would be something to look into, but it should satisfy why Royal Oppression doesn't work during the Damage Step (being an Optional Trigger Trap Card Effect in this case)

[Tronta]

so

much

tldr.

 

funk this game.

[darkwolf777]

lol :< Without it being read, all is lost. I guess I can't blame you. I guess its up to me to try and make any sense of what Konami tries to do in this card game, piece by piece on my own >

[Tronta]

i read it, i just realized i've lost care. such bullshit.

[evilfusion]

And with all this in mind, anyone who says in complete seriousness that this is a simple card game for children is henceforth dubbed an idiot.

[darkwolf777]

Its seems to be trial and error since nothing is ever explained officially. Generalizations are all I have to try and make any sense of this mess (which almost work until Konami throws a curveball and ruins it all) :3c At least I can make safer assumptions when new cards are released, but that doesn't prove anything until a ruling list is released because of "BKSS"-type rulings.

[Tronta]

DERP

[Professional Duelist]

Before it's a quick effect that negates, therefore it makes it into the Damage Step? Reps.

[Tronta]

oh shut up. i'll give wolf and that other guy a rep. i dont even remember his name.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

One time you're putting me in your sig now you don't remember my name.

[Professional Duelist]

idc about reps tbh D:

[Tronta]

i meant evil fusion...