Redd, Apostle of Dark World

[Donvermicelli]

EDIT: Light attribute was my bad, changed it by accident (ofc DW is supposed to be Dark lol)

ok so, since lately Dark World has become pretty mainstream and overplayed (to my despair)
I decided to make an additional support card that enabled a bit of variety between DW decks.
The idea is to have a card that's a bit.. unconventional, just see and comment pls

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Munbi.jpg[/img]

[s][i]If this card is discarded to the Graveyard by a card effect: Special Summon it from the Graveyard. If this card is returned to the hand by a card effect: If it was returned to the hand by an opponent's card effect, you can target 1 card your opponent controls; You can discard 1 card other than "Redd, Apostle of Dark World", then return that target to the hand (if any).[/i][/s]

Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set. Can only be Special Summoned by the effects of "Dark World" cards. If this card is discarded to the Graveyard by a card effect: Special Summon it from the Graveyard. If this card is returned to the hand: If it was returned to the hand by an opponent's card effect, you can target 1 card your opponent controls; You can discard 1 card other than "Redd, Apostle of Dark World", then return that target to the hand (if any).

[Hydra Iron Man]

WOW, GREAT CARD
Background;100%
Image:100%
Effect:100%
10/10

[Sora1499]

First, my aesthetic... DWs are DARK and always DARK, never anything else. Giving them the broken toy that is BLS to play with is a baaad idea. The art on the card is incredible, perfect for DWs. Now, the card itself:

An easily preferable choice to Beiige. Same ATK value, but ultra-combos with Grapha. I don't think it can summon itself with its discard effect (which would result in a loop-de-loop) because I believe that its discard effect misses timing with its return to the hand. If I'm right, then this card is an easily-preferable choice over Beiige, as it can start up other DWs abilities as well as being nice for Grapha. If I'm wrong about it missing timing, and it can discard itself with its effect, then this card is broken and deserves to die in a miserable hole of flaming hot bird feces.

[D.A._Sakuyamon]

Now on to my thoughts. First and foremost. The image is more or less "Brron, the Mad King of Dark World" with a slightly different pose and recolor.

The effect, It's great. It's obviously meant to be used in conjunction with grapha but at the same time hurts your opp. if they compuls it. Like Sora said, it's would more or less replace Beiige. The problem though is that this card just does to much. What I mean is it recycles with ease. Discard, ss, bounce back to hand, ss grapha, discard and so forth and so on. Even if it misses the timing on itself all you need is a 2nd in hand and herp de derp loop begins.

[Donvermicelli]

[quote name='Archlord Sora' timestamp='1351735305' post='6058421']
First, my aesthetic... DWs are DARK and always DARK, never anything else. Giving them the broken toy that is BLS to play with is a baaad idea. The art on the card is incredible, perfect for DWs. Now, the card itself:

An easily preferable choice to Beiige. Same ATK value, but ultra-combos with Grapha. I don't think it can summon itself with its discard effect (which would result in a loop-de-loop) because I believe that its discard effect misses timing with its return to the hand. If I'm right, then this card is an easily-preferable choice over Beiige, as it can start up other DWs abilities as well as being nice for Grapha. If I'm wrong about it missing timing, and it can discard itself with its effect, then this card is broken and deserves to die in a miserable hole of flaming hot bird feces.
[/quote]

Glad you like the art, spent some time trying to get a more similar background but unfortunately I couldn't quite copy the coloring of it.

You are right about it missing timing, at least that's how I designed it. (If I am wrong someone please correct me)
The Idea is that it's a more useful version of Beiige that supports Grapha and at the same time has a punish effect for what I would like [center]to call "troll destruction", a lot of anti-meta decks use [/center][i]Neo-Spacian Grand Mole[/i][size=3][/size][center]or [/center][i]Compulsory Evacuation Device [/i][center]to clear an opponents field without actually destroying cards and since almost no cards have a effects that counter this I thought this would be a nice addition. [/center]

[quote name='♥ D.A._Siegfried ♥' timestamp='1351735944' post='6058433']
Now on to my thoughts. First and foremost. The image is more or less "Brron, the Mad King of Dark World" with a slightly different pose and recolor.

The effect, It's great. It's obviously meant to be used in conjunction with grapha but at the same time hurts your opp. if they compuls it. Like Sora said, it's would more or less replace Beiige. The problem though is that this card just does to much. What I mean is it recycles with ease. Discard, ss, bounce back to hand, ss grapha, discard and so forth and so on. Even if it misses the timing on itself all you need is a 2nd in hand and herp de derp loop begins.
[/quote]

Well all that's Bronn about the image is his head, I just thought it was cool so I used it, sorry to hear you don't like it that much.

I can put a fix on that if you are concerned about it discarding copies of itself;

[i]If this card is discarded to the Graveyard by a card effect: Special Summon it from the Graveyard. If this card is returned to the hand by a card effect: If it was returned to your hand by an opponent's card effect, you can target up to 1 card your opponent controls; You can discard 1 card other than Redd, Apostle of Dark World, then return that card to your opponent's hand (if any).[/i]

[size=4][font="tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif"]Would this be enough of a fix in your opinion? I really try to make my cards as balanced as possible, but there's always unforeseen uses.[/font][/size]


[font="tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif"]Thanks for the feedback everyone, It's much appreciated, keep it coming [/font]

[Donvermicelli]

BUMP

[Shinobi Phoenix]

A: Get rid the words "up to". You are only targeting ONE card and you're actually (looking to) make it optional. 0 cards would be just NOT targeting anything.


B: The text should read: "You can discard 1 card, then return the target (if any) to the hand."


Reason: Proper text style and the fact you no longer need to state whose Deck or hand a card is returned to UNLESS it's [b]NOT[/b] returning to owner of the card (as in Exchange or something). If you want to idiot-proof it, just put "owner's hand", but it's actually not necessary.

Example Source: (Ironically) [b][url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Grapha,_Dragon_Lord_of_Dark_World"]Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World[/url][/b].
- It's a reference to several things your own Dark World card needs and yet lacks. In fact, since you copy-pasted text from other DW cards, you didn't seem to forget your own card already says "returned to THE hand" in the previous sentence, but then "your hand" in the next.


C: Since this is less than Level 5 anyway, why not add "Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set." to limit it a bit and not take away from Belige's position in the Deck. You could also add "Must be Special Summoned by its own effect or other "Dark World" cards and cannot be Special Summon in other ways."


D: You shouldn't let it discard itself or copies of itself.


E: I don't know too many DW monster that misses timing... so maybe not make it optional... Not sure if Goldd actually misses timing. Best just to avoid that all together.


[u]So in the end, I'm proposing this as the new text:[/u]
[b][i]"Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set. Must be Special Summoned by its own effect or effects of other "Dark World" cards and cannot be Special Summon by other ways. If this card is discarded to the Graveyard by a card effect: Special Summon it from the Graveyard. If this card is returned to the hand by a card effect: If it was returned by an opponent's card effect, target 1 card your opponent controls; Discard 1 card other than "Redd, Apostle of Dark World", then return the target (if any) to the hand."[/i][/b]


With changes (particularly, the text I propose), the card is fine, though I think you added too many missed timing issues and needless complications to make the card usable. There are better ways to create balance and making ruling nightmares is DEFINITELY not one of them. Especially when you aren't getting nearly as much as you think out of the card. Using the text I propose and playtesting it, you will see the card doesn't come out nearly as much without depending on the OTHER Dark World cards in the first place. And the BIG move this card makes is still very dependent on having a good hand ready for it and you need your opponent to even START it up for you, so it's not like the card itself is a win-button. It takes combination, setup and luck.


So in a perfect scenario:

- You have Redd in your hand, activate and resolve Dark World Lightning or Graceful Charity, discarding Redd. Redd SpecSummons.
- Your opponent activates and resolves Compulsory Evacuation Device or Forced Back. Targeting and returning Redd to hand.
- Redd activates both its return-trigger effect and the optional effect with it. You target an opponent's card.
- Redd discards (some other Dark World monster) and returns the opponent cards. (Other Dark World Monster) is SpecSummoned, replacing Redd's presence on the field. Redd is now sitting in your hand waiting to be discarded again because can't be Normal Summoned.


Not the most likely scenario. In fact, even bouncing Redd yourself with your own card effect doesn't get you much because in order to even Summon Redd, you had to discard something and you could have instead Summoned the monster you would have Summoned with Redd's effect in the first place rather than discard Redd. Redd [u]is much more like insurance against stuff[/u] than an actual enforcer of your strategies.

Good card, but not as needing of nerfs as you think... (with the changes I advised).


If you don't use these changes, I'll just reword and fix it and use it on one of my own cards since I did all that work anyway. I never made any Dark World monsters before anyway (except fixing anime Colorless and anime Cobal... which I finished a long time ago).

[Donvermicelli]

@Shinobi Phoenix, thanks for the feedback.

I'll reply in order:

A: The words up to, indeed served to make the effect optional. In the time I was away rulings have changed, thanks for pointing that out.

B: The , the Hand, your Hand issue was something I overlooked, old writing habit I guess.

C: Why should I put such a heavy limitation on the card?, I don't see any reason to not make it a Normal summon, nor do I see any reason to not have it Special Summoned by other effects. While it does indeed intrude on Beiige's territory it doesn't take away from it, while this card is mostly an improved version of Beiige I can see enough reasons to use both in the same Deck. (And to be honest Beiige isn't used all too much in DW decks right now)

D: It doesn't, my fault for not updating the main post but this issue has been adressed, thanks for pointing it out again though.

E: Point taken, I still prefer to have it optional.


[i]If this card is discarded to the Graveyard by a card effect: Special Summon it from the Graveyard. If this card is returned to the hand by a card effect: If it was returned to the hand by an opponent's card effect, you can target 1 card your opponent controls; You can discard 1 card other than "Redd, Apostle of Dark World", then return that target to the hand (if any).[/i]

I would also like to explain the use of the card, Redd is not meant as a pure insurance, he's an enforcer that comes WITH insurance,
here's how:

Hand: Coffin, Redd, Grapha, Goldd, Sillva.
My field: Nothing
Opponent: random amount of cards.

1) Play coffin, discard: Redd, Sillva, Grapha
SS Redd, Sillva, destroy 1 card with Grapha
2) Use Grapha eff, target Redd, SS Grapha, Discard Goldd, SS Goldd.

Result: my field: +3, opponent field -1

VS (using Beiige)

1) Play coffin, discard: Beiige, Sillva, Grapha
SS Beiige, Sillva, destroy 1 card with Grapha
2) Use Grapha eff, target Beiige, SS Grapha

Result: my field +2 opponent field: -1

Now here's where Redd's 'extra' insurance comes in:

@step 2: Use Grapha eff, target Redd,
Opponent chains Compulsory: targets Redd,
Grapha loses target, eff canceled, BUT, Redd eff: discard other DW monster, target opponent's card and return, SS DW monster, Use Grapha eff, SS Grapha.

Result: my field: +0, opponent field: -2

VS Beiige

Result: my field: -1, opponent field -1

In this sense Redd maintains field presence, while Beiige cannot.
Hope this clears up the use I had in mind.

[Synchronized]

So here's the issue; Grapha's Summon from the Graveyard by bouncing a monster is [i]not[/i] a card effect; it's a Summon Condition. If you designed it to work WITH Grapha, it would fail at doing so because it doesn't actually get its trigger from anything other than Compulsory Evacuation Device.

I would re-word it, in a way, so that it works when bounced to the hand at all, because doing it by an effect makes it virtually useless.

[Shinobi Phoenix]

[quote name='Donvermicelli' timestamp='1351864905' post='6059374']
Hand: Coffin, Redd, Grapha, Goldd, Sillva.
My field: Nothing
Opponent: random amount of cards.

1) Play coffin, discard: Redd, Sillva, Grapha
SS Redd, Sillva, destroy 1 card with Grapha
2) Use Grapha eff, target Redd, SS Grapha, Discard Goldd, SS Goldd.

Result: my field: +3, opponent field -1
[/quote]

A: Grapha's condition for SpecSummoning himself from the GY won't trigger something like Redd. It's not technically a cost (because it's for a in-built Summoning) but it's [u][b]DEFINITELY[/b][/u] not part of his effect either and Redd has to be bounced [u][b]by[/b][/u] an effect. Not to mention, old Mist Valley cards and similar would be the reference to the same problem.

Or something easier to recognize, [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tricky"]The Tricky[/url] doesn't Summon Dark World monsters. You discard cards for its Summoning, but that won't trigger DW. Thus Grapha will not activate Redd (not an effect).



B: You literally just worked out the ground work for WHY Redd replaces Beiige. Why would someone run something with the same stats as your card and less payoff? Answer: They won't and yes, people don't use Beiige, your card is a better Beiige, thus they will use it, and Beiige will STAY never seeing use as you just cemented it.

[Donvermicelli]

[quote name='- Neo -' timestamp='1351866917' post='6059400']
So here's the issue; Grapha's Summon from the Graveyard by bouncing a monster is [i]not[/i] a card effect; it's a Summon Condition. If you designed it to work WITH Grapha, it would fail at doing so because it doesn't actually get its trigger from anything other than Compulsory Evacuation Device.

I would re-word it, in a way, so that it works when bounced to the hand at all, because doing it by an effect makes it virtually useless.

Thank you for pointing that out, this should fix it:

[i][u]If this card is returned to the hand[/u]: If it was returned to the hand by an opponent's card effect, you can target 1 card your opponent controls; You can discard 1 card other than "Redd, Apostle of Dark World", then return that target to the hand (if any).[/i]

[/quote]
[quote name='Shinobi Phoenix' timestamp='1351867158' post='6059401']
A: Grapha's condition for SpecSummoning himself from the GY won't trigger something like Redd. It's not technically a cost (because it's for a in-built Summoning) but it's [u][b]DEFINITELY[/b][/u] not part of his effect either and Redd has to be bounced [u][b]by[/b][/u] an effect. Not to mention, old Mist Valley cards and similar would be the reference to the same problem.

Or something easier to recognize, [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tricky"]The Tricky[/url] doesn't Summon Dark World monsters. You discard cards for its Summoning, but that won't trigger DW. Thus Grapha will not activate Redd (not an effect).



B: You literally just worked out the ground work for WHY Redd replaces Beiige. Why would someone run something with the same stats as your card and less payoff? Answer: They won't and yes, people don't use Beiige, your card is a better Beiige, thus they will use it, and Beiige will STAY never seeing use as you just cemented it.
[/quote]

In all honesty, having this card would actually increase the chance of me running Beiige for the sake of using xyz monsters,
since other than Beiige this card would be the only other lvl 4 DW monster that special summons itself.
However I see your point and the edit I made should calm your concerns about the card:

[b][i]Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set. Can only be Special Summoned by the effects of "Dark World" cards. If this card is discarded to the Graveyard by a card effect: Special Summon it from the Graveyard. [/i][/b][i][u]If this card is returned to the hand[/u]: If it was returned to the hand by an opponent's card effect, you can target 1 card your opponent controls; You can discard 1 card other than "Redd, Apostle of Dark World", then return that target to the hand (if any).[/i]