Sora1499 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 A 2.7k vanilla ain't much, but a 3k one that revives is. Also, there should be a certain degree of reason to which boss monsters should adhere. I don't think a potential 3k beater that floats for the entire game is reasonable, and justifying that "bosses should be bosses" isn't very reasonable either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Bosses have been bosses since yugioh began; Significantly powerful monsters when compared to the rest of their cards. It's all the justification the game needs. If you want to play a game without boss monsters, yugioh isn't the game to play. Look through the history of the game and find me a deck that did consistently well without having a boss monster. TER Chaos Sorcerer Monarchs DMOC LaDD Horus Dark Strike Fighter Stardust Dragon Laggia That's a very short list compared to what it would be, and off the top of my head, and frankly I'm half asleep right now. Yugioh as a competitive game was founded on boss monsters that were obscenely powerful. Grapha's no exception, but is overrated in terms of "brokenness". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Grapha could have had better design, like recycling DWs or discarding them for benefits, but instead Konami took the cheap route. Saying that a deck deserves a broken boss monster just for the sake of having a card to fill the niche is a bit ludicrous. I'm not singling out poor grapha here: hyperion, JD, and many others could use tune-ups as well. Sadly, Konami is an a******. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 If that's how you feel about it, then why do you even play yugioh? Every boss monster is designed in a similar fashion. .-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Master Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1352780464' post='6067971'] Snoww and Gates would like a word with you. [b]Meh. Snoww I can see now, but just after it was explained. I shouldn't need a translator for a card.[/b] Oh and, without their bosses, almost every single deck in the game would suck. Yugioh is kind of a game where you make a deck around bosses, and Grapha just happens to be one of those bosses. Much like how LS would suck if they didn't have JD, or how Agents would suck if they didn't have Hyperion. [/quote] Which is why those kinds of decks should be discouraged, yet, instead, the game has glorified them. The reason I find myself not even attempting to build competitive decks is because the way to play is basically to set one goal. It doesn't make the game a game, but rather who can get to set goal faster. It's boring, dull, and makes me sad at times. More on-topic: Broken card is still broken, even for a boss. Maybe if it was Special Summon from the hand, I could care less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Wait. Did you just say that both players trying to reach a certain goal (note that this does involve the players being able to mess eachother up) doesn't make the game a game? Do you understand what words mean? Seriously, if you don't like boss monsters that are hugely better than everything else, don't play yugioh. It's literally been that way since the game began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 TBH, I'm actually thinking that Grapha is a bad design in the right place at the right time. It's broken, it's searchable, it's a constant free revival granted you have the Dark World monsters or options to do so which you should have most of the time. So why is a "Grapha" deck popular, but not making it (though some rouge decks kinda make it) to the top? Because as well as it's powerful, it's also riddled with weak points. Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror - Easily Sided Dark World Match-Up - Kills their numbers Banish Plays - Kills the deck, especially if key cards are removed such as Grapha himself. Not only that, but as much as they beat down, if they play against decks that just run them over with even bigger monsters (We're talking Quasar, Inzektor Removal, Chaos Dragon +s, etc), the deck has (shockingly) few outs. A well placed Stardust can also hamper the deck severely as destruction is the key word for removal when it comes to playing with Dark Worlds outside of hand control. Unless you are able to precisely counter the very plays your opponent runs, Dark Worlds will get no where. So is Grapha really bad design? On paper, yes. Is it bad design in the game? Of course. Is it "Over Powered" DEFINITELY Should it stay at 3? Looks like that's going to be the case because without Grapha, the Deck is nearly dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1352819810' post='6068214'] TBH, I'm actually thinking that Grapha is a bad design in the right place at the right time. It's broken, it's searchable, it's a constant free revival granted you have the Dark World monsters or options to do so which you should have most of the time. So why is a "Grapha" deck popular, but not making it (though some rouge decks kinda make it) to the top? Because as well as it's powerful, it's also riddled with weak points. Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror - Easily Sided [b]The deck sides for these, while still being able to summon Grapha under it[/b] Dark World Match-Up - Kills their numbers [b]This can be said for any deck. .-.[/b] Banish Plays - Kills the deck, especially if key cards are removed such as Grapha himself. Not only that, but as much as they beat down, if they play against decks that just run them over with even bigger monsters (We're talking Quasar, Inzektor Removal, Chaos Dragon +s, etc), the deck has (shockingly) few outs. A well placed Stardust can also hamper the deck severely as destruction is the key word for removal when it comes to playing with Dark Worlds outside of hand control. Unless you are able to precisely counter the very plays your opponent runs, Dark Worlds will get no where. So is Grapha really bad design? On paper, yes. Is it bad design in the game? Of course. Is it "Over Powered" DEFINITELY Should it stay at 3? Looks like that's going to be the case because without Grapha, the Deck is nearly dead. [/quote] You realise that right now, any deck playing Quasar, any deck playing Inzektors, and the current form of Chaos Dragons are some of DWs' best matchups? And... how is a card overpowered when every other boss is substancially stronger than it in every form except re-usability? Every other deck even has a higher threat density... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Key word: Reusability. That's what makes it broken. Also, those best match-ups are mainly for just round 1. Until they side in Shadow-Imprisoning and no matter what kind of Spell/Trap hate you have, that's the key card that you will always bait for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Wtf does re-usability matter when some decks play like 9 overall stronger bosses? .-. Yeah, sure. Except the DW deck doesn't look the same in Game 1, 2 or 3. After g1, you play an adaptive, much slower game. I'm willing to have them negate a Grapha negate anyway, since I actually have removal sided in, instead of the comparatively tiny amount in the main. .-. Oh and... you're kinda proving yourself wrong, in a way. If Grapha's so broken, why is he so apparently easy to stop with apparently common side-deck cards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Broken cards have weaknesses. JD can't touch starlight road, Hyperion is a splashable vanilla if your opponent has Necrovalley, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 No f***ing s*** they have weaknesses. He came across as if DWs were obsolete because common side decks would always beat them. Necrovalley and Road aren't even close to that. Again, no one's actually managed to say why Grapha's broken, just that it's good. It's still worse than a significant number of bosses, so... how is he broken? You see, a card's brokenness is all dependant on what everything else is doing. Of course, everything seems broken compared to what used to be meta (There was a day where yugioh games would go into time in game 1) but that's because the game evolved. In the current iteration of the game, Grapha actually comes across as a fair boss monster in comparison to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dementuo Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1352782273' post='6068005'] Bosses have been bosses since yugioh began; Significantly powerful monsters when compared to the rest of their cards. It's all the justification the game needs. If you want to play a game without boss monsters, yugioh isn't the game to play. Look through the history of the game and find me a deck that did consistently well without having a boss monster. TER Chaos Sorcerer Monarchs DMOC LaDD Horus Dark Strike Fighter Stardust Dragon Laggia That's a very short list compared to what it would be, and off the top of my head, and frankly I'm half asleep right now. Yugioh as a competitive game was founded on boss monsters that were obscenely powerful. Grapha's no exception, but is overrated in terms of "brokenness". [/quote] I just wanna say, Gravekeepers win without bosses. Now, Grapha... Grapha, to the core, is attrocious design. It's a constant source of +1s that come in the form of a 2.7k-3k beater at the cost of a Normal Summon, something that DW don't care about. Foolish Burial is run in DW purely because Grapha can be revived almost every turn, and having that constant +1 is incredible, allowing the player to conserve their monsters and keep them for discards in the future. Even without Gates, Grapha punches over a lot. With gates, it naturally gets over everything that isn't BLS. With standard DW skeletons, there are 3 Snoww, 3 Broww, and 1-2 Beiige. That's 7-8 DW monsters to fuel Grapha, with even just one able to fuel him infinitely. Theoretically, people can kill off the other DWs to seal Grapha, but then why do the DW players keep using them for discards like Gates? Because, if you have to use all your DWs and you still haven't won, then you're doing something very wrong. Either DWs will win before using all 7-8 others, or they lose before using them all. Either way, they should never use them all. Once Grapha's on the field, it's just another 3k vanilla, sure. But that still puts pressure on the opponent. Even 3 hits from a 2700 Grapha is gg, and 3k Graphas are worth worrying about even more. Despite being a vanilla, what happens when you either don't draw or run out of resources? What happens after your opponent forces those resources into th grave with Dragged Down, Card Destruction, or possibly even Mind Crush? Simply, the Graphers punch your face in while you sit there crying over your 3 Hyperions and limited cards in the grave. So sure, Grapha is a vanilla most of the game. But vanillas can still have huge ATK and beat over most other bosses. So, Grapha. Is it broken? Yes. Poorly designed? Definitely. Should it be limited of semi'd? Probably. But will it? Probably not. This forum and this thread aren't meant to complain or whine about how cards should see the list or that cards are badly designed, it should instead be used for discussing [i]why[/i] a card is broken or badly designed and [i]what[/i] makes that true. If you want to complain that a card should be hit, go to the DN forums. Otherwise, stop arguing about how Grapha single-handedly makes Dark Worlds a usable deck and start doing what you're supposed to; talking about Grapha's position in the current meta game. So getting back on topic... I personally believe DWs can top; they've done it before. Given a skilled player and a proper build, DWs have all the potential they need to rise back up to top tier again. Even with Atlanteans and Spellbooks rising up, DWs have been just like Six Sams: They've stayed alive format after format, and still been a relatively significant force, acting as an undermeta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Eh, I still think the competitive environment argument fits yugioh better, but good points nonetheless. In the end, it does come down to perspective in this case anyway. In the environment, he's not broken, but in a vacuum he is. Oh and, just gonna nitpick, Foolish sucks unless you have it turn 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 And then Konami releases another Virus that makes them even more broke (Crush Card DOES NOT COUNT). But yeah, everything's pretty much be stated above by Demmy. Also, I still don't see Dark Worlds getting anywhere other than where they stand today, mainly because despite the fact that Grapha is badly designed and makes the deck as well as gives it it's main form of fire power, the deck as a whole requires skill, anticipation, and one hell of side that can counter basically anything or preps you for anything consistently. Most Dark World decks can't do that, and the few that do usually fall apart 1 way or another. So...I'm still saying there gonna stay just where they are (at least until I get my tourguides...then I'll do stuff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Dark Worlds could be the best deck if they didn't punish your opponent for discarding them. For something that was supposed to be such a strength, it's a hilarious weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1352820739' post='6068221'] Key word: Reusability. That's what makes it broken. Also, those best match-ups are mainly for just round 1. Until they side in Shadow-Imprisoning and no matter what kind of Spell/Trap hate you have, that's the key card that you will always bait for. [/quote] In all honesty, I'd rather be against a recurring beatstick with a 1 time destruction effect rather than a one time beatstick that continuously blows something on my field up if I can't get rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The thing is, I can ram that "Vanilla" 1 trick pony onto that monster that constantly pops and be done with him. The you'll see my "Vanilla" 1 trick pony again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 In which case, you're playing a reactive game, and on the turns they're swinging at you, you're taking damage, whereas you're just killing their monster... Remind me how that's more degenerate/broken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 <.< it was a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A._Sakuyamon Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1352827637' post='6068297'] In which case, you're playing a reactive game, and on the turns they're swinging at you, you're taking damage, whereas you're just killing their monster... Remind me how that's more degenerate/broken? [/quote] Maybe because you have a chance of bring that Vanilla back on the same turn you rammed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1352827452' post='6068293'] The thing is, I can ram that "Vanilla" 1 trick pony onto that monster that constantly pops and be done with him. The you'll see my "Vanilla" 1 trick pony again [/quote] BLS and remove your Gates. We can both play this game if you want.[quote name='♥ D.A._Siegfried ♥' timestamp='1352827839' post='6068301'] Maybe because you have a chance of bring that Vanilla back on the same turn you rammed it? [/quote] You say that like they don't have a chance to bring anything out whatsoever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dementuo Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1352826426' post='6068272'] Eh, I still think the competitive environment argument fits yugioh better, but good points nonetheless. In the end, it does come down to perspective in this case anyway. In the environment, he's not broken, but in a vacuum he is. Oh and, just gonna nitpick, Foolish sucks unless you have it turn 1. [/quote] True, this format doesn't allow DWs to be good, just as this format [i]does[/i] allow main-deck'd Royal Decrees to be good due to all the Backrow being flung around. And fair enough, Foolish is a turn-1 card in DWs. No argument there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A._Sakuyamon Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1352827909' post='6068303'] BLS and remove your Gates. We can both play this game if you want. You say that like they don't have a chance to bring anything out whatsoever [/quote] If it's my turn and I was freely able to ram my Grapha in without pause then odds are I can bring it back that same turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='♥ D.A._Siegfried ♥' timestamp='1352828014' post='6068307'] If it's my turn and I was freely able to ram my Grapha in without pause then odds are I can bring it back that same turn. [/quote] And then you pass your turn they bring out Hyperion, pop your Dragon then Krystia your face. Again you say that like they can't do anything back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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