Number C17: Gran Leviathan Dragon [SINGLE]

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

[center][img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ycm/images/thumb/3/3c/Number_C17_Card.jpg/331px-Number_C17_Card.jpg[/img]

WATER/Dragon/Xyz/Rank 3/2000 ATK/0 DEF
3 Level 3 WATER monsters
You can also Xyz Summon this card by using 1 "Number 17: Leviathan Dragon" you control as the Xyz Material. (Xyz Materials attached to that monster also become Xyz Materials of this card.) Once per turn: Detach 1 Xyz Material from this card; Increase the ATK of this monster by 1000, and, if your Life Points are lower than 1000, increase the ATK of all other monsters you control by 500. Negate the effects of Spell/Trap/Monster Card effects that would negate this monster's attack.

Discuss.
And here's the original artwork, used by permission from the awesome monster artist Raphtil.
[url="http://raphtil.deviantart.com/art/Number-C17-Leviathan-Dragon-Lance-341406334"]http://raphtil.devia...Lance-341406334[/url][/center]

[Miror B]

So you just made TGU go into a 3K beater with no restrictions and that can become a 5K beater if it so happens to last long enough.
Look at Utopia. It's Chaos Xyz has an unrelated effect that's still good in the sense that it is useful.
This is just an upgraded Leviathan and makes Leviathan only a halfway point. Comepletely outclasses it to the point of Leviathan is only run because it's needed for this.
Card is decent, but from a Chaos Xyz standpoint I don't think it lives up to being useful without making its origin worthless.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

[quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1354775683' post='6086547']
So you just made TGU go into a 3K beater with no restrictions and that can become a 5K beater if it so happens to last long enough.
Look at Utopia. It's Chaos Xyz has an unrelated effect that's still good in the sense that it is useful.
This is just an upgraded Leviathan and makes Leviathan only a halfway point. Comepletely outclasses it to the point of Leviathan is only run because it's needed for this.
Card is decent, but from a Chaos Xyz standpoint I don't think it lives up to being useful without making its origin worthless.
[/quote]
On the plus side, it drives up TGU back up to $160.

[Miror B]

[quote name='TheFinalFan' timestamp='1354775856' post='6086549']
On the plus side, it drives up TGU back up to $160.
[/quote]
If that's considered a + :/

[Synchronized]

Using TGU as the argument is bad because TGU is broken and should be banned. Without TGU, there's absolutely no problems with this card at all. It's balanced and actually a rather solid option considering the most damage it's going to be able to do in a turn is 3000; but it's completely demolished by Dimensional Prison and all that stuff because they don't negate so there's really plenty of ways to get around it.

I'm not even using counterability as a justification here; it's just not a broken card. It's like Acid Golem but originally weaker so if it's Book'd or hit by something that banishes like GEPD or Wattpheasant, it comes back completely weak. I'd suggest though, adding a clause that it can't attack directly if it has less than 1 Xyz Material.

[Agro]

Using TGU as an argument is absolutely fine because TGU still exists as a card and is playable. You don't ignore a card's existence just because it's broken. If someone were to make a monster with 200 DEF and wins the duel when Special Summoned by Rekindling, we don't ignore the fact that it's broken beyond belief JUST because Rekindling shouldn't exist.

And even ignoring that fact, Meta's point is still valid. Leviathan Dragon is still absolutely worthless except as a middleman if this card exists. You'll only ever go into Leviathan Dragon to go into this, there'd never be any "I need to use Leviathan Dragon right now", because it will always be "I need to use Leviathan Dragon to get into this."

And it's certainly more unbalanced than Acid Golem, seeing as this doesn't have the drawbacks and can keep boosting to 5000 ATK. Leviathan Dragon could only get to 3000 ATK and even then had a drawback... this has nothing.

I'd be much more okay with this card if it could only do this when LP were 1000 or less.

[Shinobi Phoenix]

I didn't know that if you make a card that uses a card that people didn't care use much, it makes them like the card anyway?

So what if you think it replaces Leviathan Dragon or you think people will use it for a stepping stone, they would do it anyway if it suited their purpose, that's how people are. Plenty of cards get replaced and plenty are stepping stones to others plans just as much as there are cards that people will use regardless of how much other people like or dislike them.

Trying to control how you THINK other people should do something doesn't sound like the best person to me. Maybe the fact that Leviathan Dragon isn't that good in the first place might also have a lot to do with it. We have replacements to Cyber Dragon and Spirit Reaper coming out of the woodwork (and yes, some are better), but you can't try to control people's preferences or actions because you disagree with them. That's exactly what's wrong with America right now.



[u][b]All that said[/b][/u], the card could use some minor adjustments. And I will even agree that it looks like the Chaos Numbers get different effects from their non-Chaos counterparts (though I don't believe they need to be held to that or having only effects that are used if you are 1000 or less).

Levia-Dragon comes out as a 2500 in the same way this comes out as 3000, ok, so the only problem is how the effect operates. It gets even bigger and can keep itself from getting its attack negated. I don't have a problem with the boost... much, without testing it. I feel the negation prevention should be attached to some condition. Like a specific number of WATER monsters you control and maybe only when your LP is 1000 or lower. Hell, done that way, I wouldn't even mind if the effect was changed to a Ancient Gear Golem effect.


You might not get as many complaints if the boost was changed to 2 Materials or 1 Material and an additional cost of another kind. Maybe not being able to do it on consecutive turns (though that might be too much). The 2 materials version would absolutely negate any Tour Guide argument because you only can do it ONCE outside of other effects but still allow it at least. The other stuff could maybe be continuous and not connected to the boost effect, but locked to only happening if you are 1000 or less [u]and[/u] control a specific number of WATER monsters (or more).



I made my own Chaos Number Leviathan Dragon a while back, but went a completely different route (not the Hope Ray route, but not completely aware from it since it was the only one at the time). I will post it for inspiration if asked but I'm pretty sure it's not necessary.

[i](Ironically, Leviathan Dragon is the ONLY Chaos Number remake I made... and just on a whelm of feeling bad for it being the first revealed and used Number, but it was so completely ignored the rest of the show for the most part).[/i]

[Sora1499]

Edit: Just realized this was in RC and not TCG. Lolz. Anyways, I think the card would be fine it the +1k effect only happened if you had 1k LP or less, like the rest of the Chaos Xyz, because TGU'ing into a 3k beater isn't exactly fair.

As for the flavor, the card seems a bit... Bland. Utopia's Chaos Xyz has a completely different effect than this predecessor, but this is just an empowered version of Number 17, nothing more. So I can't say I like this card.

[Synchronized]

@Agro, I skimmed over the fact that it needs 3 materials so ill admit my faults on that one; a 5000 beatstick is certainly an issue

However I think if you added a clause that it couldn't inflict battle damage it'd be ideal

[Miror B]

[quote name='- Neo -' timestamp='1354811215' post='6086780']
Using TGU as the argument is bad because TGU is broken and should be banned. Without TGU, there's absolutely no problems with this card at all. It's balanced and actually a rather solid option considering the most damage it's going to be able to do in a turn is 3000; but it's completely demolished by Dimensional Prison and all that stuff because they don't negate so there's really plenty of ways to get around it.

I'm not even using counterability as a justification here; it's just not a broken card. It's like Acid Golem but originally weaker so if it's Book'd or hit by something that banishes like GEPD or Wattpheasant, it comes back completely weak. I'd suggest though, adding a clause that it can't attack directly if it has less than 1 Xyz Material.
[/quote]
You missed the entire point of my post.
My entire point is that it's terrible design for a Chaos Xyz because it renders it's previous form completely obsolete. You look me in the eye and tell me you'll keep your scrumpy little Leviathan Dragon when you have this in your Extra.

[Synchronized]

^ Like I said, there are a few things I missed out on. Truthfully I skimmed over most of the posts so oh well.

I can understand the arguments that it's broken now, but I think that would be fixed relatively easily by just adding a clause that it can't attack directly.

That, and make it so that the ATK increase only lasts until the End Phase of your opponent's next turn, meaning it will never go over 3000.