A new way to get Grapha in the Graveyard (Dyumon, Guardian of Dark World)

[Radiant F.U.R.Y.™]

2 Level 8 DARK monsters

Cannot be destroyed by battle. Any damage you would take from battles involving this card becomes 0. When an opponent's card or effect that would cause this card to leave the field is activated, you can detach 1 Xyz Material from this card; negate that activation and destroy it. Once per Duel, when this card is targeted by a card effect; You can return this card to the Extra Deck; the effect of that card becomes "Your opponent discards 1 card".

 

Edited Effect and stats. No longer requires non-targeting removal to set up detachment. Considering removing the no damage clause b/c of its higher attack (thoughts?). Also, I have a question, can Grapha "bounce" this to SS itself?

[Love of Ghibli]

I personally find the card flawed and from the title of the thread it sounds like the thought process behind the card was flawed from its inception. 

First, Grapha by default is broken and bad design. Its a boss monster that rewards for having a first grade reading level. Actually I won't go into the essay of why Grapha is bad but know that it is. Having said that. ANY card who's design is to help Grapha do what Grapha does is already off to a very bad start.

 

Now your card actually stops Grapha which means you acted against your goal. Here is a list of things wrong.

1) Your card is a two material rank 8 that can only be summoned with Fiends. In Dark World decks Grapha is the only level 8 fiend meaning that one would have to give up 2 Grapha's to even summon this creature. Dark World decks need their Grapha's in grave or in hand, not stacked behind some massive Xyz waiting to hopefully die.

2) You've made a giant monster wall with its own Waboku. So not only will the two desperate Grapha's stuck behind this card suffer in stagnation they will also have to wait for your opponents non-destruction removal to ever see use. Meaning that this "boss" is essentially a stall card, which are also bad for the game.
 

3) In reference to removal you've made it so that if it is targeted it will trigger the dark world's in your hand and give them their opposing player effects. Now since the thread is titled "A new way to get Grapha to the graveyard" I take it that you intended for the card to trigger a Grapha. As stated in point 1) Dark World decks can only make this with Grapha so essentially your card says sacrifice two the potential abuse of your first 2 grapha's to MAYBE max out the potential of the third. That in itself is a major flaw.

4) Dark Worlds rarely use their extra decks (mainly because they have Grapha) so to warrant an extra deck boss for them would have to be something really destructive. Your card has wall stats, such high defense with no substantial attack it will not kill anything that the two grapha's (or any Xyz that Grapha's could make) couldn't kill on their own. So Dark World players would not use this. 

5) Finally the name of the card is a tad off. Dark World monsters are named after colors not support for the raw minerals.

I would like to say that the art is nice and while it looks like it may come from Duel Masters/Kaijudo that it was a good choice that fit the name of the card. I would suggest some fixes, but that would mean making decent Dark World support...which is something that I personally believe shouldn't happen.

[Radiant F.U.R.Y.™]

To your first point, I have to disagree. I don't think that grapha is as poorly designed as you think. That being said, that's just a difference in opinion.

 

The title of the post was actually an afterthought. I wanted grapha to be the first choice of materials, but I think this could work in other fiend decks as well. The idea was to introduce a more defensive monster into the archetype. And for traditional Dark World strategies, you're right. This wouldn't be a first choice. It does, IMO, open the archetype to a wider range of play styles.

 

As to the non-destruction removal...it doesnt have to be non-destruction removal. The wording also allows for destruction to satisfy the condition as well; so detaching the materials is not as difficult as you might think. Detaching materials is what I meant in the title btw. I intended the Dark Deal on legs to work with any DW in hand. I didn't consider any specific one.

 

to your fourth point, my irl DW deck uses the Extra Deck several times in any given duel.

 

Its defensive stats/flavor lend to an issue I've run into in the current meta...I either find myself with an empty hand, or an empty field when playing high tier Decks

 

And finally point 5...Graphite and snow are not colors either. So that boat sailed with Konami at the helm

 

I actually put a lot of work into editing the image the way I wanted, so that means a lot that you complimented it. Thank you. Also dont get the wrong idea about my previous statements. Im not wildly denying any fault in the card itself. I make plenty of mistakes. I just feel like the best ideas come from everyone understanding the thought behind the decisions, and my "defense" is merely an attempt to provide insight. Your criticisms have been nothing short of the most constructive I've seen in some time. If there are any issues I havent addressed, or any changes you might suggest...just let me know

[Love of Ghibli]

To your first point, I have to disagree. I don't think that grapha is as poorly designed as you think. That being said, that's just a difference in opinion.

 

The title of the post was actually an afterthought. I wanted grapha to be the first choice of materials, but I think this could work in other fiend decks as well. The idea was to introduce a more defensive monster into the archetype. And for traditional Dark World strategies, you're right. This wouldn't be a first choice. It does, IMO, open the archetype to a wider range of play styles.

 

As to the non-destruction removal...it doesnt have to be non-destruction removal. The wording also allows for destruction to satisfy the condition as well; so detaching the materials is not as difficult as you might think. Detaching materials is what I meant in the title btw. I intended the Dark Deal on legs to work with any DW in hand. I didn't consider any specific one.

 

to your fourth point, my irl DW deck uses the Extra Deck several times in any given duel.

 

Its defensive stats/flavor lend to an issue I've run into in the current meta...I either find myself with an empty hand, or an empty field when playing high tier Decks

 

And finally point 5...Graphite and snow are not colors either. So that boat sailed with Konami at the helm

 

I actually put a lot of work into editing the image the way I wanted, so that means a lot that you complimented it. Thank you. Also dont get the wrong idea about my previous statements. Im not wildly denying any fault in the card itself. I make plenty of mistakes. I just feel like the best ideas come from everyone understanding the thought behind the decisions, and my "defense" is merely an attempt to provide insight. Your criticisms have been nothing short of the most constructive I've seen in some time. If there are any issues I havent addressed, or any changes you might suggest...just let me know

Number wise I shall address each counter point not counting Grapha's design.

1) You would have to list fiends that wouldn't require a huge commit and their own deck. For example, the only other fiend I can think of that would warrant a summon of this wall is Dark Necrofear which is something that requires dedication. Also as you stated, you wanting Grapha to be the first choice of material was what I defined as a problem. Grapha as a monster is far too valuable to give up for a wall.

 

2) This is my fault. I meant to say non-targeting removal. Non destruction removal can still target which means his effect still triggers, however it is extremely rare to deal with non-targeting effects. Which in this case is a loose-loose situation. Because it is a wall with such low attack points an opponent can wait to trigger its effect. Meaning as long as your opponent doesn't trigger it you have essentially put two Grapha's in a very big cage. So your offense is significantly cut and your opponent is in a good position to build advantage.

3) If detaching was your intention then I'm confused. Heliopolis, Tachyon and Felgrand are great Grapha detachers and they've been here for a while. Second, while it works with any dark world monster I don't think any of them are worth the "once per duel" clause and sac two Grapha's to make it happen.

4) While I can't contest that...I'm curious as to how many times have you willingly chose to sacrifice two grapha's when going into your extra deck.

5) Graphite is also shade of grey; and snow is reference to pure white

[Radiant F.U.R.Y.™]

Ok. You do mke some good points. While there is a decent number of Level 8 DARK Fiends, they do seem to require to much dedication and the deach is harder to pull off than I originally intended. I guess I needed to give it another once-over to see that.

 

There's only one point I would argue. Wikipedia has a list of colors, and diamond is on that list. it's a shade of blue.

 

I'll play around with his effect and stats to see what I can do. Maybe I'll bump ATK to 2700 to make it worth at least 1 of those Graphas. Who knows what else...just keep an eye out...it should be up sometime today

 

EDIT: Effect and stats updated

[Radiant F.U.R.Y.™]

a final bump before i put this thread to rest