Holy Spirit? What is it?

[Silas Angel]

 

But yes' date=' the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are indeed One, as the fulness of Diety. There are not 3 gods, only One. And this One, in a sence, splits itself for different jobs. And yes, the Holy Spirit is matterial as is the Father.

[/quote']

 

I never said otherwise. I was merely saying that the reasoning to call the Holy Spirit a "he" because the other two were referred to as such isn't solid reasoning, I don't think. Because the three persons are distinct from one another; they are different.

And the Father isn't material. The Holy Spirit isn't material. In theory, you can't touch either of them.

 

theres too many points in that for me to get all of them but:

 

The only way that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are different is in thier ministries. The Father ; the Son saves; and the Holy Spirit comes to condemn, to convict, and to be the Righteousness of this world. But in the end, on judgement day, they will be one:

 

Romans 14:10 "For we will all stand before God's judgement seat."

2 Corinthians 5: 10 "For we all must apear before the judgment seat of Christ..."

 

it seems as though they are 2 different people but then:

 

Revelation 20:11 "Then I saw a great white throne and the One who sat on it."

 

that was the record of the final judgment of man. But it didnt say that there was God and Christ it just said One. that One was the fullness of Diety

[silverlighted]

Ha' date=' no scientific evidence that any of it ever was real or ever is real. Science is golden my friend, and VERY soon religion shall be abolished. Yet we can still believe in false accusations of Holy Spirits and that nonsense.

[/quote']

 

Once again, as I said in a previous post....a discussion of the nature of the Holy Spirt does not entail whether or not it actually exists. So really, any mentioning that it's not real is offtopic and rather bothersome......not that I mind dealing with it, but it's really a different discussion entirely.

 

And VERY soon religion shall be abolished...hmm...very informed statement.

Okay, honestly, I never even thought about that, but I find it hard to believe that you'd be able to substantiate such a.....bizarrely prophetic comment.

 

Yeah, science is great...hopefully you also recognize its limitations as well. That's important too.

 

Oh, and just in case respond incorrectly, note that I did not suggest at all that religion is more valuable than science. I did not take a position of that or the contrary or of the position that they're equal either.

 

I see' date=' well, this is were christianity becomes less and less.. sense making. O.o".

The father, the son, and the holy spirit are indeed worshiped separately, although sourced from the one deity, god. The separate worship of those conflicts with the "One god." thing, since Jesus, and if you read some of the bibles stories, the holy spirit, possessed powers of a god like nature. Or, as jesus put it, "I have brought the inner sanctum of heaven's prowess, blessed by thy father, to heals the souls of the believers." Hebrews somewhere. O.o".

Anyway..

If the what you're saying, that the holy spirit, the son and the father are indeed one, it would lead to a different theory.

Since, logically, you should know, The holy spirit [i']sourced[/i] from God, as did Jesus. Both of which are essentially "parts of God himself."

However, you're saying that whatever is sourced back to god is actually needed to contribute to the wholeness of God.

Which means, that essentially, based on that, you're saying that humans, a creation apparently sourced from God, are actually of God-like nature.

Which again conflicts with the "one god" rule of religious practices.

Also, to exploit another loop whole, apparently "Jesus" is technically God, being that God needed to save the world from damnation, but couldn't find a "vessel" (Human he uses.) perfect enough to use.

So, God being perfect, set aside some of himself, and sent it into the virgins womb.

However, this kind of failz when Jesus prays to God saying "Father, I pray that it doesn't come to this, but if it must, I shall lay my life down in order to save your children." Famously said when he was in some garden, Moments before his capture, and eventual crucifixion.

Why would God pray to God himself?

It makes no sense, therefore neither does the religion.

Just thought I'd get that out. ;].

2sick~

 

Kinda confusing, but I guess I'll just respond to you...MCII can respond himself since I'm sure our precise explanations will differ.

 

so, did you just pull quotes out of the top of your head? lol, random, haha.

Well, first, it is in my understanding that the (Catholic) position is that the Holy Spirit and the Son did not "source" from God. Actually, I'm not sure based on how you're using the term "source". In a sort of different perspective, it would work, but if you mean that the Holy Spirt and the Son were created from God, I dunno, like they broke off or something, that's not true. The Holy Spirit is synonymous with God. Same with the Son. Yes...the Son of God is God...ummm, I'll get back to that.

 

To deal with the idea of humans as being godlike. Well, humans are supposdly made in his Likeness...erm, but I know what you're getting it. The thing is, the Holy Spirit and the Son...they are not..."parts"...of God. God did not create them. They were there since the beginning, along with the Father. The idea is that all 3 persons have always been. So there' still 1 God, despite 3 persons...erm...yeah, moving on.

 

Yeah, yeah, Jesus is God in flesh. Um, so his sacrifice is like sacrificing God...which is like...super sacrificing, so it ends up being able to forgive sins for all time basically, past, present, and future, as opposed to the limitations of sacrificing a simple lamb (back in those days).

 

Now about Jesus' praying to God...this basically goes with the questions I've left unanswered in earlier paragraphs. It all requires the undestanding of "person" and what the phrase "3 persons in 1 God" actually means.

Okay, this is going to sound like a copout, but basically, I don't think I can fully explain this. I have somewhat of an understanding of what it is, but I might be wrong or unable to convey it. I haven't examined in great detail the origins behind the term "person" and how it's used in referring to a triune god.

 

Basically, this post was to point your examples of flaws in the concept of the trinity towards this topic, the concept of a "person". To show that there is consistency up until to this point that God is 3 persons in 1 divine substance.

From there, there's obviously controversy over the definition, origins, usage, blah, blah, so that's an argument of a different level.

What I've presented isn't a definitive argument obviously, but if you were to be interested in what's going on behind the reasoning of the Trinity (in Catholic terms at least), you can go look up this topic.

 

Or you could just settle for the nontrinitarian explanation haha.

[Silas Angel]

the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are not to be worshipped or prayed to as different people, they are One. When you worship or pray to the Father then your are worshipping or praying to the Son and the Holy Spirit

[Willieh]

there may be a god' date=' who really cares.

 

but over all

we [b']Did[/b] evolve, we have proof

 

there is No Proof that god created us, that jesus exist, and over all

 

religion is pointless.

Actually, atheist or not, Jesus did exist. It's whether or not he had divine powers that is debateable (which isn't a real word :().

 

I have serious doubts that we evolved. The way I look at it is we've always been. We never started, we have just always been. It's been like this forever. The only thing about us that has evolved is our civilizations.

[silverlighted]

the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are not to be worshipped or prayed to as different people' date=' they are One. When you worship or pray to the Father then your are worshipping or praying to the Son and the Holy Spirit

[/quote']

 

Yeah but 2sick was wondering why was Jesus praying to Father...to himself...sort of. lol

 

there may be a god' date=' who really cares.

 

but over all

we [b']Did[/b] evolve, we have proof

 

there is No Proof that god created us, that jesus exist, and over all

 

religion is pointless.

 

Well, if god did exist...that'd be interesting, no? lol, I mean, if were ants to some greater race of alien, I think that'd be interesting. That there is a level of reality beyond our own, *shrugs*

 

We do not have proof that we evolved. There is evidence that leads to that conclusion, but there isn't proof, persay, because we can't prove it. It's science after all.

Okay okay, I'm making the definition proof too narrow...but my point is there, about whether or not it's provable. I mean, yeah, people can be strong with the understanding that evolution happens...but don't take the info for granted.

 

Eh, religion has some pros.............

Really, it does, haha.

[Silas Angel]

to give us an example to live by.. and also because we must remember that Christ was 100% God, but also 100% man. And this is one of those things that man is just at awe by. Like the virgin birth, I cant explain it, but i do believe it and confess that it actually happened and needed to happen. I dont kno exactly why He needed to pray to His Father, who was Himself, but He did.

[2sick4u]

Ha' date=' no scientific evidence that any of it ever was real or ever is real. Science is golden my friend, and VERY soon religion shall be abolished. Yet we can still believe in false accusations of Holy Spirits and that nonsense.

[/quote']

 

Once again, as I said in a previous post....a discussion of the nature of the Holy Spirt does not entail whether or not it actually exists. So really, any mentioning that it's not real is offtopic and rather bothersome......not that I mind dealing with it, but it's really a different discussion entirely.

 

And VERY soon religion shall be abolished...hmm...very informed statement.

Okay, honestly, I never even thought about that, but I find it hard to believe that you'd be able to substantiate such a.....bizarrely prophetic comment.

 

Yeah, science is great...hopefully you also recognize its limitations as well. That's important too.

 

Oh, and just in case respond incorrectly, note that I did not suggest at all that religion is more valuable than science. I did not take a position of that or the contrary or of the position that they're equal either.

 

I see' date=' well, this is were christianity becomes less and less.. sense making. O.o".

The father, the son, and the holy spirit are indeed worshiped separately, although sourced from the one deity, god. The separate worship of those conflicts with the "One god." thing, since Jesus, and if you read some of the bibles stories, the holy spirit, possessed powers of a god like nature. Or, as jesus put it, "I have brought the inner sanctum of heaven's prowess, blessed by thy father, to heals the souls of the believers." Hebrews somewhere. O.o".

Anyway..

If the what you're saying, that the holy spirit, the son and the father are indeed one, it would lead to a different theory.

Since, logically, you should know, The holy spirit [i']sourced[/i] from God, as did Jesus. Both of which are essentially "parts of God himself."

However, you're saying that whatever is sourced back to god is actually needed to contribute to the wholeness of God.

Which means, that essentially, based on that, you're saying that humans, a creation apparently sourced from God, are actually of God-like nature.

Which again conflicts with the "one god" rule of religious practices.

Also, to exploit another loop whole, apparently "Jesus" is technically God, being that God needed to save the world from damnation, but couldn't find a "vessel" (Human he uses.) perfect enough to use.

So, God being perfect, set aside some of himself, and sent it into the virgins womb.

However, this kind of failz when Jesus prays to God saying "Father, I pray that it doesn't come to this, but if it must, I shall lay my life down in order to save your children." Famously said when he was in some garden, Moments before his capture, and eventual crucifixion.

Why would God pray to God himself?

It makes no sense, therefore neither does the religion.

Just thought I'd get that out. ;].

2sick~

 

Kinda confusing, but I guess I'll just respond to you...MCII can respond himself since I'm sure our precise explanations will differ.

 

so, did you just pull quotes out of the top of your head? lol, random, haha.

Well, first, it is in my understanding that the (Catholic) position is that the Holy Spirit and the Son did not "source" from God. Actually, I'm not sure based on how you're using the term "source". In a sort of different perspective, it would work, but if you mean that the Holy Spirt and the Son were created from God, I dunno, like they broke off or something, that's not true. The Holy Spirit is synonymous with God. Same with the Son. Yes...the Son of God is God...ummm, I'll get back to that.

 

To deal with the idea of humans as being godlike. Well, humans are supposdly made in his Likeness...erm, but I know what you're getting it. The thing is, the Holy Spirit and the Son...they are not..."parts"...of God. God did not create them. They were there since the beginning, along with the Father. The idea is that all 3 persons have always been. So there' still 1 God, despite 3 persons...erm...yeah, moving on.

 

Yeah, yeah, Jesus is God in flesh. Um, so his sacrifice is like sacrificing God...which is like...super sacrificing, so it ends up being able to forgive sins for all time basically, past, present, and future, as opposed to the limitations of sacrificing a simple lamb (back in those days).

 

Now about Jesus' praying to God...this basically goes with the questions I've left unanswered in earlier paragraphs. It all requires the undestanding of "person" and what the phrase "3 persons in 1 God" actually means.

Okay, this is going to sound like a copout, but basically, I don't think I can fully explain this. I have somewhat of an understanding of what it is, but I might be wrong or unable to convey it. I haven't examined in great detail the origins behind the term "person" and how it's used in referring to a triune god.

 

Basically, this post was to point your examples of flaws in the concept of the trinity towards this topic, the concept of a "person". To show that there is consistency up until to this point that God is 3 persons in 1 divine substance.

From there, there's obviously controversy over the definition, origins, usage, blah, blah, so that's an argument of a different level.

What I've presented isn't a definitive argument obviously, but if you were to be interested in what's going on behind the reasoning of the Trinity (in Catholic terms at least), you can go look up this topic.

 

Or you could just settle for the nontrinitarian explanation haha.

Lawl. I.. I was pretty out of it when I typed that.. I tried to have a point, but it didn't come around, so I just when on with some weird dribble.

O.o".

Anyway..

The subject of the trinity is something that can be viewed, but not really understood, as it's origin's, concepts, and pretty much appearance is all but text now.

It's not something that should/can be debated, as hey, there IS only one resource on it. Also, it's not proven/unproven, it's faith, which is something which you believe or not. Concepts or views of a person cannot shape or change what could or couldn't be in the after-life. And I can back myself when I say:

Most of the 10 year olds that come on this site wouldn't have read more than Genesis of the bible. This debate is pretty much articulated by opinion.. As are alot of them here.. Which really means:

The holy spirit is an emotion, a feeling in sorts.

I can debate whether it's self induced psychologically or given by god, but that's retracing on the "There has to be a winner in debates." thing. ;].

Either way, it comes down to personally beliefs, not 3,000 bible quotes.

=].

2sick~

[silverlighted]

lol, I wasn't criticizing your post. I didn't seem too much like dribble. And when I asked about the quotes, I wasn't criticizing you, I was more of like, wow, you had those on the top of your head.

 

lol, of course you can debate it. ^^ At least to establish a consistent train of thought. Like, I don't know if God exists or not, let alone the Trinity. But it's interesting for me to examine what it means to have 3 persons in one god. It leads to really funky lines of I thought. But yeah, a lot of it, as far as I can tell, is speculation. I mean, I think in the bible as it is, the only mention of the full trinity occurs once, lol.

 

@MCII

Ah yes, the example angle. Yeah, that does make sense. I still question whether or not praying to the Father is praying to the Son.

Well, it is.

But, like, really? lol. For one thing, I think it's inaccurate to say that the Father is the same as the Son, because they're not. They just both happen to be God. There isn't a transitive relationship.

[Silas Angel]

@MCII

Ah yes' date=' the example angle. Yeah, that does make sense. I still question whether or not praying to the Father is praying to the Son.

Well, it is.

But, like, really? lol. For one thing, I think it's inaccurate to say that the Father is the same as the Son, because they're not. They just both happen to be God. There isn't a transitive relationship.

[/quote']

 

the Father is the Son.. how are they not?

[Supernova513]

@Static about Jesus' birth. That is a pagan tradition that Jesus was born the 25 of December. It said that when he was born, the shepherds were tending to their sheep. Why would the shepherds be outside during the freezing winter tending to sheep? Christmas in tis originality was a Roman holiday in which men would give gifts to each other and drunkenly sodomize each other. But to answer the original topic, the Holy Spirit is not another "person" per say, its God's word. The "life of the bible". This is why some people in church hearing the bible's message become very excited and dance and sing because the word has rejuvenated their spirit.

[Silas Angel]

@Supernova: well.. The Holy Spirit, if is not a person to you, is nothing. honestly.. But heres a quote from Charles Spurgeon, a father of the church

 

"The Holy Spirit is the very breathe of the church."

 

he was refering to an unrevived church, if its just like the church at ephesus in the book of revelation, just goin through the motions.. if we want to see a revival in the church, we must preach and speak of the truths of the Holy Spirit, for He is the very breathe of the church

[Metal Lord]

LIsten though everyone I know will go to hell' date=' cause in the bilble go wants u to be pure and commit no sins i'm only 14 and proboly did 1 already and no one can really know untill the actually die so I belive what I want

[/quote']

 

Jesus forgave the sins of the people who were truely sorry. No one is perfect, nor without faults.

 

Holy spirit? I'm as clueless as you are... We'll find out one day.

[MistressMaria]

Sorry the Holy Spirit is the Heavenly Mother. To Elegant Totality no just because the Holy Spirit is feminine does not mean that she is another God. She is God but God has no gender and can be whatever it wants. Also the Bible says that both men and women are made in the image of god. Also Wisdom or Sophia is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is repeatedly called the Spirit of Wisdom and also one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is wisdom. Maybe you think that God can only be male and is a limited creature of male gender but the bible says that God transends gender and that BOTH genders are made in the image of God not just men. Also the book of Proverbs is what narrates the Holy Spirits role in creation briefly mentioned in Genesis. Also the Hebrew word for spirit Ruach is feminine. Check this website for more information on her feminine gender http://laermita.org/index1.htm

[Static]

Umm no.

 

God is this guy:

 

 

The one who's image is painted on the car, not the guy who painted it.

[Azmodius]

All this 'Holy Spirit' sheet is false. You don't believe me? Well, be retarded.

[Красивая Ведьма]

Umm no.

 

God is this guy:

 

 

The one who's image is painted on the car' date=' not the guy who painted it.

[/quote']

 

What is that supposed to mean? For someone who favors theocracies you certainly change your views a lot.

[Static]

Umm no.

 

God is this guy:

 

 

The one who's image is painted on the car' date=' not the guy who painted it.

[/quote']

 

What is that supposed to mean? For someone who favors theocracies you certainly change your views a lot.

 

http://www.myspace.com/disturbed

 

Reference was completely related to music.

[Красивая Ведьма]

 

http://www.myspace.com/disturbed

 

Reference was completely related to music.

 

Oh' date=' so it was unrelated to the current discussion. OK[hr']

All this 'Holy Spirit' s*** is false. You don't believe me? Well' date=' be retarded.

[/quote']

 

What do you mean by that? Are you an atheist or of another religion. Or, do you just not accept the idea of female member of the holy trinity. Also, are you aware that your name is a variation of Asmodeus, a biblical demon and King of the sin of Lust?

[HelioSpark]

Brahman in Hinduism and The Holy Spirit are theoretically the same thing.

 

Some people also attribute The Holy Spirit to "natural laws", such as the ones theorized by philosophers and scientists like Newton, Locke, and Montesquieu. (Since it is an unseen yet universal presence whose effects can be seen on Earth)

[Красивая Ведьма]

Brahman in Hinduism and The Holy Spirit are theoretically the same thing.

 

Some people also attribute The Holy Spirit to "natural laws"' date=' such as the ones theorized by philosophers and scientists like Newton, Locke, and Montesquieu. (Since it is an unseen yet universal presence whose effects can be seen on Earth)

[/quote']

 

The Holy Spirit is more like Shiva. All the members of the holy trinity are attributed to the natural laws. Their reach is endless. That is the powers of any God. The Holy Spirit is the female member of the trinity and was characterized as a female just as the father was characterized as an old man.

[Man0waR]

if you want god to rule your life, fine. your just falling to idolitary ruling. which is a bad thing (so says the bible.)

[Felix Culpa]

The Holy Spirit is the little piece of god in all of us and everything around us.

[HORUS]

Krasnaya Luna, the Holy Spirit is some sheet the Bible made the funk up.

 

 

And I agree with Static. Every broken enemy will know that their opponent had to be invincible.

[Static]

Brahman in Hinduism and The Holy Spirit are theoretically the same thing.

 

Some people also attribute The Holy Spirit to "natural laws"' date=' such as the ones theorized by philosophers and scientists like Newton, Locke, and Montesquieu. (Since it is an unseen yet universal presence whose effects can be seen on Earth)

[/quote']

 

I have to put it out there.

 

Locke was not a scientist; he was a half assed philosopher, and perhaps one the most fooled men to ever live. Tabula Rasa = horsesh-t.

[MistressMaria]

Ok first of all the Holy Spirit is not God in us. Honestly that is blasphemy. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Spirit that rules over all things. She is the Heavenly Mother. It is true we do have the essence of God in us but that does not mean that God has us in it. This is a perversion of the idea of Atma and Jiva. God is Atma and really Jiva is nothing more then Atma sense we are made in God's image but that does not mean that Atma is nothing more the Jiva