Yugioh Formula, Success tricks. (Updated, please read post 12)

[iAmNateXero]

Im at a toss where i don't know where this one best fits, weather in the TCG section or the Deck section, but ill take my chances here. Okay Is there a formula for Yugioh?! A System that makes wining simple, something that takes actual thinking out of the picture and replaces it with raw science?

 

Lets take the -/+ For example. IF we analyze a deck by the way the cards effect the hand, what would be a great number. For example: (This will be a basic deck we base it around.)

 

Monsters

 

Stratos

3x Plasma

3x Malicious

2x DAD

 

Spells

 

3x Allure

3x D draw

3x Upstart

 

Traps

 

3X PWWB

3x Raigeki Break

 

Okay so the Only Guaranteed +1 we have is Stratos, So as of right now, the deck is 1. Than we have Plasma. A -3 and an equilizer with allure and D draw. So lest just cut it down the middle at -1.5 x 3 = -4.5. As of right now the deck is -4.5. Malicious is a 0. 0 x 3= 0, Still a -5 Dad is a 0 and a possible + 3. cut it down the middle. +1.5 x 2 = 3. So the deck is currently a -1.5. D draw is an equalizer, its 0. Allure, same, and upstart, same. Deck is still a -1.5. All the traps is 2 for 1. so -1. 6 x -1= -6, -6 + -1.5 = -7.5.

 

My point; is there a cut off point in which a deck can be in the negative before its considered a bad deck, or how much of a positive before considered too risky? Think about these cards.

 

 

How would these effect the formula / meta?

[Tickle Me Emo]

i dont understand where the -4 came from

[iAmNateXero]

-3 from field and -1 from hand.

[Kizzi]

-3 from field and -1 from hand.

What card are you talking about here? 0.0

[iAmNateXero]

-3 from field and -1 from hand.

What card are you talking about here? 0.0

 

Than we have Prisma. A -4 and an equilizer with allure and D draw.

[Kizzi]

Prisma?!

How the hell is Prisma a -4?!

[iAmNateXero]

Prisma?!

How the hell is Prisma a -4?!

 

-3 from field and -1 from hand.

If i counted correctly -3 + -1 = -4. I mean, its how you interpret it. If you use it with scape goats, its -1. Old fashion way of sacking 3 monsters, -4. Thats besides the point though. And it should be plasma. Im sorry. Plasma, not prisma.

[Exiro]

Prisma?!

How the hell is Prisma a -4?!

 

-3 from field and -1 from hand.

If i counted correctly -3 + -1 = -4. I mean' date=' its how you interpret it. If you use it with scape goats, its -1. Old fashion way of sacking 3 monsters, -4. Thats besides the point though. [u']And it should be plasma. Im sorry. Plasma, not prisma.[/u]

 

Ah, that explains it.

 

Still, it's -3.

-2 from field and -1 from hand.

It's not like Plasma is destroyed whenever summoned.

[iAmNateXero]

^Thanks, now ill redo the math.

[.:pyramid:.]

this will only work when you assess against other duelists decks, because their is much more to consider when you are using this. btw i think this is a very good discussion. maybe you may want to back up your point by using this to Analise the top 2 decks at baitmore, to create a wider discussion.

[JesusofChaos™]

Joc is confused

[iAmNateXero]

i will. i just thought it would be interesting.

 

[EDIT]

Okay lets analyze the following decks. Im not that great with the +/-, So please correct all errors. [NOTE:] Because side deck is optional, and will differ, unless other wise siding all, (Which most people don't, and your not required to write a decklist for your sides) im not going to count it in this experiment.

 

Monsters: 21 (In Numbers' date=' its a +2)

2 Gladiator Beast Laquari = 0

1 Elemental Hero Stratos = +1

2 Gladiator Beast Darius = +1

2 Gladiator Beast Bestiari = +1

1 Gladiator Beast Murmillo = +.5

2 Gladiator Beast Hoplomus = 0

2 Elemental Hero Prisma = 0

3 Test Tiger = -1.5

2 D.D. Crow = -2

1 Sangan = .5

1 Spirit Reaper = .5

1 Gladiator Beast Equeste = .5

1 Breaker the Magical Warrior = .5 (No priority. If it did, it would be +1)

 

Spells: 9 (In numbers, its a -6.5)

1 Monster Reborn = -.5 (Not guaranteed to snatch monster, crow still exist.)

1 Heavy Storm = 0 (Minimum requirements to activate it is at least 1 S/T to be on the field, so it equals out.)

1 Brain Control = -1

1 Mystical Space Typhoon =0

2 Cold Wave = -2

1 Enemy Controller = -1

2 Book of Moon = -2

 

Traps: 11 (In Numbers is a -1.5)

3 Solemn Judgment = 0

2 Gladiator Beast War Chariot = -1 (Has potential of being dead card, and also a 1 for 1, so i cut it in half.)

1 Trap Dustshoot = -.5 (You can miss)

1 Crush Card Virus = +? (Its undetermined so it will count for 0)

2 Dimensional Prison = 0

2 Bottomless Trap Hole = 0

 

Side Deck:

2 Light-Imprisoning Mirror

1 My Body as a Shield

1 Bait Doll

2 Twister

2 Mind Control

1 Mind Crush

1 Krebons

1 D.D. Crow

2 Rescue Cat

2 Neo-Spacian Dark Panther

 

Extra Deck: 11 (In numbers is a +1)

1 Elemental Hero Chaos Neos = 0

1 Gladiator Beast Heraklinos = -2

3 Gladiator Beast Gyzarus = +3

1 Goyo Guardian = 0

1 Stardust Dragon = 0

1 Colossal Fighter = 0

1 Gaia Knight, the Force of Earth = 0

2 Red Dragon Archfiend = 0[/quote']

Glad beast are toughie, simply because all besides Andal, Laquari, Hop, and Hera are all +1 IF they effect off, but 0's if they dont. So for the cases of all GB except the following (Because Hera is a -2, and Gyz is a +1) Ill count all GB as .5. [(0+1)/2=.5] Test Tiger is a special case too. Its a -1 unless you use it with Esquete or Darios. So (0 + -1)/2 {If you hadn't notice, i always divide my the options. In Test tigers case it has 2 options} Test tiger is a -.5

 

Since this duelist does not play with tuners, and uses only probably 1 of his monsters for the Syncro summon of his monsters (if he ever gets a chance too) It equal out to 0. But in the future, they would all fairly have to be -1 by default because it requires a minimum of 2 monsters to create.

 

Okay so the grand total of this deck is -6 in total, and +1 for the extra.

 

Lets compare one more deck, Than compare the final 2 Outcomes.

 

Monsters: 18 (As a number it is a +6)

2 Dark Armed Dragon = +3

3 Krebons = 0

1 Elemental Hero Stratos = +1

1 Sangan = +.5

2 Psychic Commander = 0

1 Armageddon Knight = 0

3 Destiny Hero - Malicious = 0

1 Destiny Hero - Fear Monger = +.5

1 Breaker the Magical Warrior = +.5

1 Spirit Reaper = +.5

1 D.D. Crow = -1

1 Caius the Shadow Monarch = +1

 

Spells: 16 (As a number it is a -2.5)

1 Cold Wave = -1

1 Monster Reborn = -.5

3 Destiny Draw = 0

1 Brain Control = -1

1 Heavy Storm = 0

3 Emergency Teleport = 0

3 Allure of Darkness = 0

2 Reinforcement of the Army = 0

1 Mystical Space Typhoon = 0

 

Traps: 7 (As a total' date=' it is a -1)

1 Mirror Force = 0

3 Solemn Judgment = 0

1 The Transmigration Prophecy = -1

1 Crush Card Virus = ?

1 Torrential Tribute = 0

 

Extra Deck (As a number it is a -11)

2 Goyo Guardian = -2

2 Stardust Dragon = -2

2 Red Dragon Archfiend = -2

2 Thought Ruler Archfiend = -2

2 Colossal Fighter = -2

2 Magical Android = -2

1 Avenging Knight Parshath = -1

2 Gladiator Beast Gyzarus = +2

 

Side Deck

2 Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer

1 Kinetic Soldier

1 Gravekeeper’s Guard

1 D.D. Crow

1 Cold Wave

1 Mind Control

1 Nobleman of Crossout

2 Light-Imprisoning Mirror

2 Mask of Restrict

2 Royal Decree

1 Dust Tornado[/quote']

 

Okay this deck in a number is +2.5 and the extra deck is a -11.

 

Comparing the 2, is it better to be in the negative, main deck considered? and a + in the extra deck? o.O

[NeoPaladin2008]

all synchros should be -1 (unless they use 2 or more tuners)

[CrabHelmet]

1 Brain Control = -1

 

An excellent example of why this method of deck evaluation is stupid.

[werewolfjedi]

1 Brain Control = -1

 

An excellent example of why this method of deck evaluation is stupid.

 

I think the main problem is, we are combining the unequal factors, and the system in use only care about the number of cards in hand and field, while that is a good idea in gernal, some cards are worth the cost.

let me make some distictions.

 

there is hand advantage, this is something that is important for come backs and taking care of problems. but it does not automaticly give victory. it is the problem solving factor in the end.

 

then there is field advantage: this is the cards/ tokens you have on the field, and it is the best area to determine how long until you can win, because you do not know what is coming next in your deck our your oppoent's.

 

the final kind that should matter, but is often ignored, is life advantage, it is what allows you to take a hit and still allow you to keep playing and build up hand / field advantage again. i think the main reason why it is often ignored is because, all alone, it will not win you the game, but it keeps you from losing, and that is important.

so you have H points, F points and L points. they all must be considered it make a good deck.

 

let me give examples of each one when high, allowing you turn turn the tide and win the duel.

 

hand avg: you are wining by a good amount, your oppoent is under 1000 LP.

s/he plays DAD and then gets a large amount of dark monsters in the grave by playing a hand destruction (or the like.). s/he removes a large amount of monsters and your field is destoryed by the effect of DAD, and you are attacked directly. in your hand you have a destory monster card, a destory spell/trap, and a monster with nowhere near the cabilites to kill DAD. your oppoent has a face down. you destory the spell, then DAD and attack directly ftw.

 

field avg. you play giant trunade, which removes the spell cards protecting this burn player's life points. you have sevral large monsters on the field, and with nothing in you way now, you attack ftw. this isn't the best example, but it gets the point across.

 

Life avg. you have 10000 life points from stalling your oppoent while snatch steal has taken your best monster in an unlucky turn of events (you know, bribe, solem, bribe, solem.). your defenses run out and you are attacked for 9000 points of damage. you have one useless trib. monster in your hand. you draw lighting vortex, and play the card. now both players are at around 1000 points and the first to draw a monster will win, if you hand't discarded a card that allows you to draw when it is used as a cost (i don't think that card exists yet.). you draw a monster and attack for the ftw. (something simlar to this one happend to me once. but i had 15000, not 10000, and I top decked raigeki.)

now if you look closely, each one worked with the other, but they did not give the same helpful effect, each one is used for something.

[iAmNateXero]

While calculating the Numbers, Effectiveness was not a deciding factor in this experiment, not to say it isn't important. That would lead to a whole experiment by itself. Fact is, Brain control alone is a -1. Can you sac the monster, yes, but the hand is still -1. And if you just return the monster, -1.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

You won't care if it's a -1 if you rob a beatstick and win the game right there. Hence why this whole +/- thing is a total crap shoot.

 

tl;dr version: Card's don't give advantage. Situations do.

[Kale]

1 Brain Control = -1

 

An excellent example of why this method of deck evaluation is stupid.

 

i am starting to agree fully...

 

in order to understand the point, you need to explain where you get the numbers from more. otherwise you will get people who dont understand you point of view.

 

i am understanding it, but i dont think that it is a very reliable way to tell if a deck is good or not.

[iAmNateXero]

I agree that this isn't a reliable way to tell if a deck is good or not, what i wanted to know if there is a system created. If not, how could one go about creating one, and What factors should involve building a good deck. Basically reverting back to the last sentence of the first paragraph.

A System that makes wining simple' date=' something that takes actual thinking out of the picture and replaces it with raw science? [/quote']

I'm guessing every body agrees that that the +/- isn't the proper way to go.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Obviously your +/- system fails since none of the numbers make sense.

 

Why do you count stuff as a +.5 and a -.5?

 

How is Monster Reborn possibly a -.5? Because it can be countered? Doesn't that make EVERYTHING a -.5 then, no matter what?

[defiant1313]

wtf okies soooooo let me get this straight you watch the show numb3rs and think ur all

thoery philosophers(not flaming im proving a point) GO AND GET LAID !

[CrabHelmet]

Monsters (26)

 

3 Thunder Dragon = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Destiny Hero - Malicious = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Mezuki = +1 * 3 = +3

1 Sangan = +1 * 1 = +1

1 Elemental Hero Stratos = +1 * 1 = +1

3 Dark Mimic LV1 = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Red Gadget = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Green Gadget = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Yellow Gadget = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Destiny Hero - Fear Monger = +1 * 3 = +3

 

Spells (13)

 

3 Chaos Greed = +1 * 3 = +3

3 The Beginning of the End = +2 * 3 = +6

3 Pot of Avarice = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Flash of the Forbidden Spell = +4 * 3 = +12

1 Monster Reborn = -.5

 

Traps (6)

 

3 Straight Flush = +4 * 3 = +12

3 Radiant Mirror Force = +3 * 3 = +9 (it can be anywhere from +2 to +4, so I chose the average, +3)

 

Extra Deck (3)

 

3 Gladiator Beast Gyzarus = +2 * 3 = +6

 

 

Monster total = +26

Spell total = +23.5

Trap total = +21

Extra total = +6

Final total = 26 + 23.5 + 21 + 6 = +76.5

 

This is clearly the best deck ever. But I could make it even better by removing Monster Reborn.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Okay, something to consider here is how the cards operate in combos, not just how they work by themselves. I know that Graceful Charity is banned, but it was the first thing I thought of.

 

Okay, so Graceful Charity, it's a solid +0. Well, lets say that someone was running Dark World, and will be discarding things like Goldd and Silva. Well, in that case, instead of sending three cards to the graveyard (this includes GC itself), you only send one; the other two provide field advantage. So within Dark World type decks, Graceful Charity is a +2 rather than a +0. So it's easy to see why the card is so good in those deck types. So the cards value can vary depending on how it operates in combos, and that needs to be taken into account while creating these formulas.

[werewolfjedi]

like i had said in my long post (which i know you didn't read, no one hear reads the long stuff. not that I can blame you.)

 

you need to evaluate things on multiple scales to get a better estimate of what the deck can do.

stuff like:

draw power,

ATK/DEF avg.,

chance of dead draws and useless cards,

speed of deck/ set up needed to go faster,

avg. dpt,

summoning ease.

 

these all need to be considered to make a decent deck.

even more for the best.

if they aren't, you will not win often, it will be all luck.

[JesusofChaos™]

Monsters (26)

 

3 Thunder Dragon = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Destiny Hero - Malicious = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Mezuki = +1 * 3 = +3

1 Sangan = +1 * 1 = +1

1 Elemental Hero Stratos = +1 * 1 = +1

3 Dark Mimic LV1 = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Red Gadget = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Green Gadget = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Yellow Gadget = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Destiny Hero - Fear Monger = +1 * 3 = +3

 

Spells (13)

 

3 Chaos Greed = +1 * 3 = +3

3 The Beginning of the End = +2 * 3 = +6

3 Pot of Avarice = +1 * 3 = +3

3 Flash of the Forbidden Spell = +4 * 3 = +12

1 Monster Reborn = -.5

 

Traps (6)

 

3 Straight Flush = +4 * 3 = +12

3 Radiant Mirror Force = +3 * 3 = +9 (it can be anywhere from +2 to +4' date=' so I chose the average, +3)

 

[b']Extra Deck (3)[/b]

 

3 Gladiator Beast Gyzarus = +2 * 3 = +6

 

 

Monster total = +26

Spell total = +23.5

Trap total = +21

Extra total = +6

Final total = 26 + 23.5 + 21 + 6 = +76.5

 

This is clearly the best deck ever. But I could make it even better by removing Monster Reborn.

 

This clearly shows why advantage is not everything