Dark Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Yes' date=' cause and effect is real. But cause and effect only outlines ONE possibilty; that is, the possibility that happens. There are an infinite amount of other possibilites that didn't happen. Determinism? No.[/b'] You just disproved yourself. There are an infinite amount of other possibilities that didn't happen. Due to cause and effect, the ONE possibility outlined is the ONLY possible outcome. The other possibilities that didn't happen may as well not even be mentioned. No, you misunderstood me. Imagine I am typing this post right now, and I hit the Post Reply button. STOP. FREEZE TIME. Let's outline all the possibilites. The cause, obviously, is me hitting the Post Reply button. These are the possibile outcomes: - The post shows up.- The screen lags for a few seconds and then the post shows up.- "Window's cannot display this page."- My router suddenly disconnects.- BSoD....- Palin comes to my house and kicks my CPU so it breaks.- A meteor breaks my house, not allowing me to post this. As you can see, there are obvious possibilities and there are stupid possibilites, that are still possible. Let's start time again. You are obviously reading this post, so the one that obviously happened was this post showed up. That is the effect of my cause, which was clicking post reply. That wasn't the only effect that COULD HAVE happened, however. No, that WAS the only effect that COULD have happened. Explain to me how something else could have happened when that DID happen. =\ Imagine 1,000,000 alternate universes. With exactly the same scenario. Me hitting the post reply button. Maybe in 980,000 of them, the post shows up. Maybe in 5000 of them, I get a BSoD. Et cetera. We only have one universe and can only perceive what happens in this one universe, so the only outcome we see is what actually happens on this universe. Once again. Explain to me the RELEVANCE of those other options... :/ There are other things that could have happened. In this given universe, at this given time, at this given place, at this given situation, I made a choice to hit the post reply button. That was the cause. In this given universe, at this given time, at this given place, at this given situation, the post showed up. That was the effect. If you took it to another universe, or another time, or another place, or another situation, there might have been a different outcome. Therefore, there is one cause but multiple effects. The effect we see is because of these specifications. ... If the other things DIDN'T happen, I hardly see how they COULD have happened. Anything COULD have happened. A bomb could have been hurdled from the sun at your house, but been stopped by a gay super hero wearing flip-flops. But that's not really RELEVANT because it DIDN'T happen. There was a POSSIBILITY that it could have happened. If you line up an infinite amount of parellel universes and put them in the same situation, will you always get the exact same outcome? NO. So you're telling me that if you do the exact same thing, in the exact same way, in the exact same environment that it will come up with different outcomes? If one thing HAPPENED then there wasn't a possibility of anything else happening. >_> We are talking about alternate universes. Imagine 2 seperate universes. Both have a player rolling a die in the exact same situation. Using your logic, both die will roll on the same number, on the exact same coordinates. However, the probability both will land on the same number is 1/36, not 1. When you are dealing with seperate universes, something that happens in one universe will not happen in the other. There are infinite possibilities when you are looking at a cause. The effect, however, is chosen from one of those. Just like a die is rolled, a number is chosen out of 6. I'm going to sleep, we'll continue this tomorrow. I don't give a s*** how many alternate universes we're apparently talking about. If the SAME thing happens in the SAME environment it will have the SAME outcome. Unless there was a situation in another universe where something different happened, then yeah, there'd be a different outcome. BUT THAT WOULD STILL BE DUE TO CAUSE AND EFFECT. I do not think you are understanding what I am telling you. Cause is what I do. Effect is what results from the cause. The cause is me clicking the post reply button. At that moment, and infinite amount of things could happen. At a given probability, one of these are chosen at random (not equal probability) and becomes the effect. You are saying the effect is the only possible outcome for the cause. You are wrong. The effect is not predetermined, it is created through a process of elimination. Here is an example: Cause: Clicking post reply button. Possible Outcomes: - Post shows up.- Computer lags and post shows up in 15 seconds.- BSoD.- Windows cannot display this page.- Restarts for no reason.- I get a 70% warning and cannot post....- Meteor breaks my computer.- Router explodes. All of those are possible at this given moment in time. Maybe in a million times, 800,000 times will the post show up. Maybe 5 times I get a 70% warning. Maybe 0.1 time a meteor breaks the computer. All of these things have a given probability. Just like rolling a dice. If you roll two die, you won't get the same outcome just because it was the same situation. The effect is what results from the cause. This isn't the only POSSIBLE outcome, however. There were an infinite number of possible outcomes, but the one you label as effect is the one that actually results from the elimination. Now, I am telling you to take this to an alternate universe. IN THE SAME SITUATION. Nothing has changed. Maybe in both universes, the post shows up. Okay, take this to a billion universes. Same situation. Maybe in half of those, the post shows up. Maybe in 10,000 a meteor hits my computer. We are only looking at the effect in this ONE universe, we are not looking at everything that could have resulted from the cause. It is not predetermined what will result from the cause because there is no substantial proof of that. You can say my fate from the day I was born to get into this argument with you. However, I can say my fate was to die at age 3, but it was wrong. It's pretty much a matter of proof, just like a God/Atheism debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Yes' date=' cause and effect is real. But cause and effect only outlines ONE possibilty; that is, the possibility that happens. There are an infinite amount of other possibilites that didn't happen. Determinism? No.[/b'] You just disproved yourself. There are an infinite amount of other possibilities that didn't happen. Due to cause and effect, the ONE possibility outlined is the ONLY possible outcome. The other possibilities that didn't happen may as well not even be mentioned. No, you misunderstood me. Imagine I am typing this post right now, and I hit the Post Reply button. STOP. FREEZE TIME. Let's outline all the possibilites. The cause, obviously, is me hitting the Post Reply button. These are the possibile outcomes: - The post shows up.- The screen lags for a few seconds and then the post shows up.- "Window's cannot display this page."- My router suddenly disconnects.- BSoD....- Palin comes to my house and kicks my CPU so it breaks.- A meteor breaks my house, not allowing me to post this. As you can see, there are obvious possibilities and there are stupid possibilites, that are still possible. Let's start time again. You are obviously reading this post, so the one that obviously happened was this post showed up. That is the effect of my cause, which was clicking post reply. That wasn't the only effect that COULD HAVE happened, however. No, that WAS the only effect that COULD have happened. Explain to me how something else could have happened when that DID happen. =\ Imagine 1,000,000 alternate universes. With exactly the same scenario. Me hitting the post reply button. Maybe in 980,000 of them, the post shows up. Maybe in 5000 of them, I get a BSoD. Et cetera. We only have one universe and can only perceive what happens in this one universe, so the only outcome we see is what actually happens on this universe. Once again. Explain to me the RELEVANCE of those other options... :/ There are other things that could have happened. In this given universe, at this given time, at this given place, at this given situation, I made a choice to hit the post reply button. That was the cause. In this given universe, at this given time, at this given place, at this given situation, the post showed up. That was the effect. If you took it to another universe, or another time, or another place, or another situation, there might have been a different outcome. Therefore, there is one cause but multiple effects. The effect we see is because of these specifications. ... If the other things DIDN'T happen, I hardly see how they COULD have happened. Anything COULD have happened. A bomb could have been hurdled from the sun at your house, but been stopped by a gay super hero wearing flip-flops. But that's not really RELEVANT because it DIDN'T happen. There was a POSSIBILITY that it could have happened. If you line up an infinite amount of parellel universes and put them in the same situation, will you always get the exact same outcome? NO. So you're telling me that if you do the exact same thing, in the exact same way, in the exact same environment that it will come up with different outcomes? If one thing HAPPENED then there wasn't a possibility of anything else happening. >_> We are talking about alternate universes. Imagine 2 seperate universes. Both have a player rolling a die in the exact same situation. Using your logic, both die will roll on the same number, on the exact same coordinates. However, the probability both will land on the same number is 1/36, not 1. When you are dealing with seperate universes, something that happens in one universe will not happen in the other. There are infinite possibilities when you are looking at a cause. The effect, however, is chosen from one of those. Just like a die is rolled, a number is chosen out of 6. I'm going to sleep, we'll continue this tomorrow. I don't give a s*** how many alternate universes we're apparently talking about. If the SAME thing happens in the SAME environment it will have the SAME outcome. Unless there was a situation in another universe where something different happened, then yeah, there'd be a different outcome. BUT THAT WOULD STILL BE DUE TO CAUSE AND EFFECT. I do not think you are understanding what I am telling you. Cause is what I do. Effect is what results from the cause. The cause is me clicking the post reply button. At that moment, and infinite amount of things could happen. At a given probability, one of these are chosen at random (not equal probability) and becomes the effect. You are saying the effect is the only possible outcome for the cause. You are wrong. The effect is not predetermined, it is created through a process of elimination. Here is an example: Cause: Clicking post reply button. Possible Outcomes: - Post shows up.- Computer lags and post shows up in 15 seconds.- BSoD.- Windows cannot display this page.- Restarts for no reason.- I get a 70% warning and cannot post....- Meteor breaks my computer.- Router explodes. All of those are possible at this given moment in time. Maybe in a million times, 800,000 times will the post show up. Maybe 5 times I get a 70% warning. Maybe 0.1 time a meteor breaks the computer. All of these things have a given probability. Just like rolling a dice. If you roll two die, you won't get the same outcome just because it was the same situation. The effect is what results from the cause. This isn't the only POSSIBLE outcome, however. There were an infinite number of possible outcomes, but the one you label as effect is the one that actually results from the elimination. Now, I am telling you to take this to an alternate universe. IN THE SAME SITUATION. Nothing has changed. Maybe in both universes, the post shows up. Okay, take this to a billion universes. Same situation. Maybe in half of those, the post shows up. Maybe in 10,000 a meteor hits my computer. We are only looking at the effect in this ONE universe, we are not looking at everything that could have resulted from the cause. It is not predetermined what will result from the cause because there is no substantial proof of that. You can say my fate from the day I was born to get into this argument with you. However, I can say my fate was to die at age 3, but it was wrong. It's pretty much a matter of proof, just like a God/Atheism debate. I don't think you get what I'M saying. The effect that DID happen is the one that happened. Obviously, if it HAPPENED, the other's couldn't have happened. Once again, the only reason you're saying that determinism is wrong is because you can't view a timeline of EVERYTHING. The fact of the matter is, in any situation, there will be one outcome. That one outcome is the only one that's relevant because it's the only one that could have happened, given the conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Yes' date=' cause and effect is real. But cause and effect only outlines ONE possibilty; that is, the possibility that happens. There are an infinite amount of other possibilites that didn't happen. Determinism? No.[/b'] You just disproved yourself. There are an infinite amount of other possibilities that didn't happen. Due to cause and effect, the ONE possibility outlined is the ONLY possible outcome. The other possibilities that didn't happen may as well not even be mentioned. No, you misunderstood me. Imagine I am typing this post right now, and I hit the Post Reply button. STOP. FREEZE TIME. Let's outline all the possibilites. The cause, obviously, is me hitting the Post Reply button. These are the possibile outcomes: - The post shows up.- The screen lags for a few seconds and then the post shows up.- "Window's cannot display this page."- My router suddenly disconnects.- BSoD....- Palin comes to my house and kicks my CPU so it breaks.- A meteor breaks my house, not allowing me to post this. As you can see, there are obvious possibilities and there are stupid possibilites, that are still possible. Let's start time again. You are obviously reading this post, so the one that obviously happened was this post showed up. That is the effect of my cause, which was clicking post reply. That wasn't the only effect that COULD HAVE happened, however. No, that WAS the only effect that COULD have happened. Explain to me how something else could have happened when that DID happen. =\ Imagine 1,000,000 alternate universes. With exactly the same scenario. Me hitting the post reply button. Maybe in 980,000 of them, the post shows up. Maybe in 5000 of them, I get a BSoD. Et cetera. We only have one universe and can only perceive what happens in this one universe, so the only outcome we see is what actually happens on this universe. Once again. Explain to me the RELEVANCE of those other options... :/ There are other things that could have happened. In this given universe, at this given time, at this given place, at this given situation, I made a choice to hit the post reply button. That was the cause. In this given universe, at this given time, at this given place, at this given situation, the post showed up. That was the effect. If you took it to another universe, or another time, or another place, or another situation, there might have been a different outcome. Therefore, there is one cause but multiple effects. The effect we see is because of these specifications. ... If the other things DIDN'T happen, I hardly see how they COULD have happened. Anything COULD have happened. A bomb could have been hurdled from the sun at your house, but been stopped by a gay super hero wearing flip-flops. But that's not really RELEVANT because it DIDN'T happen. There was a POSSIBILITY that it could have happened. If you line up an infinite amount of parellel universes and put them in the same situation, will you always get the exact same outcome? NO. So you're telling me that if you do the exact same thing, in the exact same way, in the exact same environment that it will come up with different outcomes? If one thing HAPPENED then there wasn't a possibility of anything else happening. >_> We are talking about alternate universes. Imagine 2 seperate universes. Both have a player rolling a die in the exact same situation. Using your logic, both die will roll on the same number, on the exact same coordinates. However, the probability both will land on the same number is 1/36, not 1. When you are dealing with seperate universes, something that happens in one universe will not happen in the other. There are infinite possibilities when you are looking at a cause. The effect, however, is chosen from one of those. Just like a die is rolled, a number is chosen out of 6. I'm going to sleep, we'll continue this tomorrow. I don't give a s*** how many alternate universes we're apparently talking about. If the SAME thing happens in the SAME environment it will have the SAME outcome. Unless there was a situation in another universe where something different happened, then yeah, there'd be a different outcome. BUT THAT WOULD STILL BE DUE TO CAUSE AND EFFECT. I do not think you are understanding what I am telling you. Cause is what I do. Effect is what results from the cause. The cause is me clicking the post reply button. At that moment, and infinite amount of things could happen. At a given probability, one of these are chosen at random (not equal probability) and becomes the effect. You are saying the effect is the only possible outcome for the cause. You are wrong. The effect is not predetermined, it is created through a process of elimination. Here is an example: Cause: Clicking post reply button. Possible Outcomes: - Post shows up.- Computer lags and post shows up in 15 seconds.- BSoD.- Windows cannot display this page.- Restarts for no reason.- I get a 70% warning and cannot post....- Meteor breaks my computer.- Router explodes. All of those are possible at this given moment in time. Maybe in a million times, 800,000 times will the post show up. Maybe 5 times I get a 70% warning. Maybe 0.1 time a meteor breaks the computer. All of these things have a given probability. Just like rolling a dice. If you roll two die, you won't get the same outcome just because it was the same situation. The effect is what results from the cause. This isn't the only POSSIBLE outcome, however. There were an infinite number of possible outcomes, but the one you label as effect is the one that actually results from the elimination. Now, I am telling you to take this to an alternate universe. IN THE SAME SITUATION. Nothing has changed. Maybe in both universes, the post shows up. Okay, take this to a billion universes. Same situation. Maybe in half of those, the post shows up. Maybe in 10,000 a meteor hits my computer. We are only looking at the effect in this ONE universe, we are not looking at everything that could have resulted from the cause. It is not predetermined what will result from the cause because there is no substantial proof of that. You can say my fate from the day I was born to get into this argument with you. However, I can say my fate was to die at age 3, but it was wrong. It's pretty much a matter of proof, just like a God/Atheism debate. I don't think you get what I'M saying. The effect that DID happen is the one that happened. Obviously, if it HAPPENED, the other's couldn't have happened. Once again, the only reason you're saying that determinism is wrong is because you can't view a timeline of EVERYTHING. The fact of the matter is, in any situation, there will be one outcome. That one outcome is the only one that's relevant because it's the only one that could have happened, given the conditions. No, the one outcome is the one that did happen. There were an infinite amount of other things that COULD have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 [spoiler=ARGH]Yes' date=' cause and effect is real. But cause and effect only outlines ONE possibilty; that is, the possibility that happens. There are an infinite amount of other possibilites that didn't happen. Determinism? No.[/b'] You just disproved yourself. There are an infinite amount of other possibilities that didn't happen. Due to cause and effect, the ONE possibility outlined is the ONLY possible outcome. The other possibilities that didn't happen may as well not even be mentioned. No, you misunderstood me. Imagine I am typing this post right now, and I hit the Post Reply button. STOP. FREEZE TIME. Let's outline all the possibilites. The cause, obviously, is me hitting the Post Reply button. These are the possibile outcomes: - The post shows up.- The screen lags for a few seconds and then the post shows up.- "Window's cannot display this page."- My router suddenly disconnects.- BSoD....- Palin comes to my house and kicks my CPU so it breaks.- A meteor breaks my house, not allowing me to post this. As you can see, there are obvious possibilities and there are stupid possibilites, that are still possible. Let's start time again. You are obviously reading this post, so the one that obviously happened was this post showed up. That is the effect of my cause, which was clicking post reply. That wasn't the only effect that COULD HAVE happened, however. No, that WAS the only effect that COULD have happened. Explain to me how something else could have happened when that DID happen. =\ Imagine 1,000,000 alternate universes. With exactly the same scenario. Me hitting the post reply button. Maybe in 980,000 of them, the post shows up. Maybe in 5000 of them, I get a BSoD. Et cetera. We only have one universe and can only perceive what happens in this one universe, so the only outcome we see is what actually happens on this universe. Once again. Explain to me the RELEVANCE of those other options... :/ There are other things that could have happened. In this given universe, at this given time, at this given place, at this given situation, I made a choice to hit the post reply button. That was the cause. In this given universe, at this given time, at this given place, at this given situation, the post showed up. That was the effect. If you took it to another universe, or another time, or another place, or another situation, there might have been a different outcome. Therefore, there is one cause but multiple effects. The effect we see is because of these specifications. ... If the other things DIDN'T happen, I hardly see how they COULD have happened. Anything COULD have happened. A bomb could have been hurdled from the sun at your house, but been stopped by a gay super hero wearing flip-flops. But that's not really RELEVANT because it DIDN'T happen. There was a POSSIBILITY that it could have happened. If you line up an infinite amount of parellel universes and put them in the same situation, will you always get the exact same outcome? NO. So you're telling me that if you do the exact same thing, in the exact same way, in the exact same environment that it will come up with different outcomes? If one thing HAPPENED then there wasn't a possibility of anything else happening. >_> We are talking about alternate universes. Imagine 2 seperate universes. Both have a player rolling a die in the exact same situation. Using your logic, both die will roll on the same number, on the exact same coordinates. However, the probability both will land on the same number is 1/36, not 1. When you are dealing with seperate universes, something that happens in one universe will not happen in the other. There are infinite possibilities when you are looking at a cause. The effect, however, is chosen from one of those. Just like a die is rolled, a number is chosen out of 6. I'm going to sleep, we'll continue this tomorrow. I don't give a s*** how many alternate universes we're apparently talking about. If the SAME thing happens in the SAME environment it will have the SAME outcome. Unless there was a situation in another universe where something different happened, then yeah, there'd be a different outcome. BUT THAT WOULD STILL BE DUE TO CAUSE AND EFFECT. I do not think you are understanding what I am telling you. Cause is what I do. Effect is what results from the cause. The cause is me clicking the post reply button. At that moment, and infinite amount of things could happen. At a given probability, one of these are chosen at random (not equal probability) and becomes the effect. You are saying the effect is the only possible outcome for the cause. You are wrong. The effect is not predetermined, it is created through a process of elimination. Here is an example: Cause: Clicking post reply button. Possible Outcomes: - Post shows up.- Computer lags and post shows up in 15 seconds.- BSoD.- Windows cannot display this page.- Restarts for no reason.- I get a 70% warning and cannot post....- Meteor breaks my computer.- Router explodes. All of those are possible at this given moment in time. Maybe in a million times, 800,000 times will the post show up. Maybe 5 times I get a 70% warning. Maybe 0.1 time a meteor breaks the computer. All of these things have a given probability. Just like rolling a dice. If you roll two die, you won't get the same outcome just because it was the same situation. The effect is what results from the cause. This isn't the only POSSIBLE outcome, however. There were an infinite number of possible outcomes, but the one you label as effect is the one that actually results from the elimination. Now, I am telling you to take this to an alternate universe. IN THE SAME SITUATION. Nothing has changed. Maybe in both universes, the post shows up. Okay, take this to a billion universes. Same situation. Maybe in half of those, the post shows up. Maybe in 10,000 a meteor hits my computer. We are only looking at the effect in this ONE universe, we are not looking at everything that could have resulted from the cause. It is not predetermined what will result from the cause because there is no substantial proof of that. You can say my fate from the day I was born to get into this argument with you. However, I can say my fate was to die at age 3, but it was wrong. It's pretty much a matter of proof, just like a God/Atheism debate. I don't think you get what I'M saying. The effect that DID happen is the one that happened. Obviously, if it HAPPENED, the other's couldn't have happened. Once again, the only reason you're saying that determinism is wrong is because you can't view a timeline of EVERYTHING. The fact of the matter is, in any situation, there will be one outcome. That one outcome is the only one that's relevant because it's the only one that could have happened, given the conditions. No, the one outcome is the one that did happen. There were an infinite amount of other things that COULD have happened. *SIGH* If the infinite amount of other things didn't happen, then they couldn't have happened. >_> If you repeat an experiment over and over with the exact same conditions, the same thing WILL happen over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 How are you so sure of that? Even if an experiment has the exact same conditions, the variable of different outcomes still exists. If I click the post reply button for a billion different threads, I can guarantee you I won't be posting a billion times. At least a few of those times something will go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 How are you so sure of that? Even if an experiment has the exact same conditions' date=' the variable of different outcomes still exists. If I click the post reply button for a billion different threads, I can guarantee you I won't be posting a billion times. At least a few of those times something will go wrong.[/quote'] >_> If something does go wrong, it will be because the conditions have changed at least slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 How are you so sure of that? Even if an experiment has the exact same conditions' date=' the variable of different outcomes still exists. If I click the post reply button for a billion different threads, I can guarantee you I won't be posting a billion times. At least a few of those times something will go wrong.[/quote'] >_> If something does go wrong, it will be because the conditions have changed at least slightly. Never thought about that. But that brings me back to my dice example. If you roll two dice in the exact same situation/enviornment, it has a low chance of both dice landing on the same number and a certain number (due to your logic of predetermination). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 How are you so sure of that? Even if an experiment has the exact same conditions' date=' the variable of different outcomes still exists. If I click the post reply button for a billion different threads, I can guarantee you I won't be posting a billion times. At least a few of those times something will go wrong.[/quote'] >_> If something does go wrong, it will be because the conditions have changed at least slightly. Never thought about that. But that brings me back to my dice example. If you roll two dice in the exact same situation/enviornment, it has a low chance of both dice landing on the same number and a certain number (due to your logic of predetermination). If you roll them with the same spin, on the same spot, with the same force, with the same starting sides, etc... They will end up with the same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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