Let's try this topic again.

[Dark]

If you are not going to give a serious post, GTFO.

If you are going to promote atheism (Dark, HORUS <_<), GTFO.

If you are going to promote xyz religion (people <_<), GTFO.

 

Failure to GTFO will result in me harassing Icy until punitive measures are taken. I don't want this topic to crash and burn, and I am trying to "revive" Debates. Go get post count from Fan-Fic or General. NOT FUCKING HERE.

 

9/11 was a big event; not only in the US, but also throughout the world. And to this day, we are still not sure who the hell planned it. If you are extremely pro-America(n), you may want to leave.

 

Basically, there are two major sides to this debate.

 

Side A: The government planned 9/11 for their own selfish purposes.

Side B: The 9/11 attack was a terrorist attack.

 

I doubt there are any other sides, but notify me if there are.

 

Choose a side, and back up your opinion. Debate freely, just don't get too into this. Try not to flame. If someone is being an idiot, you can freely ignore their post and wait for someone more intelligent to show up. Wow, intelligent people on YCM. <_<

 

If you are choosing Side A, make sure you have a good answer to these questions:

 

If the Bush Admin. was planning 9/11, why didn't the media have a clue about the attack? The media can figure out darn near everything.

 

If 9/11 was a selfish-based attack, why would the govt. send planes crashing into the Pentagon? Govt. officials died from that particular attack.

 

After the 9/11 attack, the entire country was 'shut down'. The Supreme Court allowed your rights to be taken away, people were extensively searched, the plane/train system was heavily guarded, and extreme measures were taken. Why would the govt. want all these effects to take place from this attack?

 

After 9/11, it's obvious that racial discrimination increased. Was this just a ploy to blame the attack on terrorism?

 

If you are choosing Side B, make sure you have a good answer to these questions:

 

Almost exactly after 9/11, the entire country was in unison to go to war with Iraq, the supposed country who attacked us. Could 9/11 have been a ploy to gain support for this war?

 

What does a Middle-East country have an abundance of? Oil. Bush owned a few oil stocks at the time of the attack. Is this just a coincidence, or did Bush want to increase his money?

 

If you look at videos of how the buildings fell, it seemed more like an internal bomb than a plane crash. Instead of toppling over, the building imploded upon itself. Using physics, you can safely assume that it wasn't the plane that caused the buildings to fall. So, what happened?

 

If our purpose in Iraq was really to find the terrorists (and bring 'peace'), how come we haven't found Osama yet? If we were really looking for him, we'd have easily found him in these 9 years.

 

So, you can see that both sides have their flaws, and both sides have their strengths. Make sure to address each of the questions for your side during your posts in this thread. Discuss, and maybe we can come to a conclusion (lol).

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

There was no ****ing conspiracy, and anyone who says otherwise is insane or lying to get attention or further their own agenda.

[Guest JoshIcy]

If there was, it was a poor attempt at one *points to the current economy*.

If it wasn't, sob.

 

There really isnt much to say =/

[Flame Dragon]

I don't get why this topic was locked. from what I can tell this is a fair topic to debate since people are divided over it and is no worse then the other topics in this section.

 

As such unlock.

 

To answer the questions for side B

 

Almost exactly after 9/11, the entire country was in unison to go to war with Iraq, the supposed country who attacked us. Could 9/11 have been a ploy to gain support for this war?

Yes it could have been. However that isn't the point. The point here is why would we want to go to war. That point would be for the oil, however the simple fact is most of it doesn't come from the Middle East.

 

What does a Middle-East country have an abundance of? Oil. Bush owned a few oil stocks at the time of the attack. Is this just a coincidence, or did Bush want to increase his money?

Odds are Bush would have had the stocks long before this happeded. I don't know if this is fact, but they are likely something his farther owned so that fact he happened to have stock in oil is because oil is just a good thing to have stock in.

 

However if he did buy stock right before the attack, I'd say with in a year or so, then it does look bad.

 

If you look at videos of how the buildings fell, it seemed more like an internal bomb than a plane crash. Instead of toppling over, the building imploded upon itself. Using physics, you can safely assume that it wasn't the plane that caused the buildings to fall. So, what happened?

The planes acted as a catalyst to cause the buildings to fall. The heat from the impact and fuel ate at the steel that held the buildings up. When it reached the point that it couldn't hold the builing up against gravity everything got pulled down.

 

If our purpose in Iraq was really to find the terrorists (and bring 'peace'), how come we haven't found Osama yet? If we were really looking for him, we'd have easily found him in these 9 years.

If you really don't want to be found it is easy for people to disappear. Only easier when you have people helping you. Osama has miles of wilderness to wide in and with all the caves and other things that are their it is odd that he can keep hidden for this long.

[Tabris]

For the record, I'm trying to be serious.

 

If the Bush Admin. was planning 9/11, why didn't the media have a clue about the attack? The media can figure out darn near everything.

 

Perhaps they weren't searching for that? Although that argument does wear thin on the intel the CIA and like agencies received the years between the twin attacks on the towers.

 

If 9/11 was a selfish-based attack, why would the govt. send planes crashing into the Pentagon? Govt. officials died from that particular attack.

 

One could argue that the attack on the Pentagon was intended for extra dramatic effect, but that's a bit too tenuous.

 

After the 9/11 attack, the entire country was 'shut down'. The Supreme Court allowed your rights to be taken away, people were extensively searched, the plane/train system was heavily guarded, and extreme measures were taken. Why would the govt. want all these effects to take place from this attack?

 

To slowly take control of the government and the country - with all the common people consistent in their support for whatever the commander-in-chief is barking. In short, to turn the United States into something of a totalitarian state. That much.

 

Almost exactly after 9/11, the entire country was in unison to go to war with Iraq, the supposed country who attacked us. Could 9/11 have been a ploy to gain support for this war?

 

Wasn't the Taliban situated in Afghanistan and not Iraq?

 

What does a Middle-East country have an abundance of? Oil. Bush owned a few oil stocks at the time of the attack. Is this just a coincidence, or did Bush want to increase his money?

 

I don't think Bush's army attacking Iraq was more than coincidence, yet I find it hard to get over the fact that the advent of war just spiked oil prices to unscaled heights and made it too costly for most of Bush's oil-rich buddies to profit in the short- to midterm.

 

If our purpose in Iraq was really to find the terrorists (and bring 'peace'), how come we haven't found Osama yet? If we were really looking for him, we'd have easily found him in these 9 years.

 

One of two answers are possible: 1) either Osama's done a really good job of hiding himself, either in the mountains of Pakistan or the bosom of the Sauds (his family's a relative of the Sauds, after all) where all attempts at good-faith interception would be halted by the power of the Arab rulers, or 2) Osama bin Laden is too indispensable to dispose of, reasons trailing towards the murky world of American-Mideastern intel relations.

[Dark]

Oh wow, this topic is still open. o_O

 

Uhh... debating is more than answering the questions I posed to each side. =/

[Womi]

Experts say, that the buildings didn't just break down because of the planes. They found traces of (I think) dynamite in the ruins and the walls broke strangely in some places.

[Dark]

Experts say' date=' that the buildings didn't just break down because of the planes. They found traces of (I think) dynamite in the ruins and the walls broke strangely in some places.

[/quote']

 

Flame Dragon's response: The planes acted as a catalyst to cause the buildings to fall. The heat from the impact and fuel ate at the steel that held the buildings up. When it reached the point that it couldn't hold the builing up against gravity everything got pulled down.

 

Well, WiiOmi, I haven't seen anything about traces of TNT, but there was some show about how the buildings couldn't have fell from the plane using some random physics calculations.

 

And what Flame is saying doesn't make much sense either. The buildings hit at least halfway up the building, if not higher. So the plane, going at such a high speed, with such a high weight, would have crashed into the building and "tipped it over", in a sense. Instead, the building immidiately imploded upon itself, similar to a bomb explosion.

[Flame Dragon]

And what Flame is saying doesn't make much sense either. The buildings hit at least halfway up the building' date=' if not higher. So the plane, going at such a high speed, with such a high weight, would have crashed into the building and "tipped it over", in a sense. Instead, the building immidiately imploded upon itself, similar to a bomb explosion.

[/quote']

The buildings didn't immediately imploded. The buildings didn't fall for a couple of hours (I think the one tower lasted around an hour and the other lasted about 2). That would give the fire enough time to compromise the steel holding up the building.

[Dark]

And what Flame is saying doesn't make much sense either. The buildings hit at least halfway up the building' date=' if not higher. So the plane, going at such a high speed, with such a high weight, would have crashed into the building and "tipped it over", in a sense. Instead, the building immidiately imploded upon itself, similar to a bomb explosion.

[/quote']

The buildings didn't immediately imploded. The buildings didn't fall for a couple of hours (I think the one tower lasted around an hour and the other lasted about 2). That would give the fire enough time to compromise the steel holding up the building.

 

I understand that, but you still haven't answered why the buildings didn't tip over like they should have.

 

And maybe it was a slow-ass bomb release. Or maybe it wasn't a strong enough bomb, but it ate away at the building's structure, allowing for a delayed fall.

 

It still hasn't been proven this was a conspiracy, but denying the idea doesn't exist is stupid and ignorant. Either way, this is going to be locked seeing we are in YCM.

[Flame Dragon]

And what Flame is saying doesn't make much sense either. The buildings hit at least halfway up the building' date=' if not higher. So the plane, going at such a high speed, with such a high weight, would have crashed into the building and "tipped it over", in a sense. Instead, the building immidiately imploded upon itself, similar to a bomb explosion.

[/quote']

The buildings didn't immediately imploded. The buildings didn't fall for a couple of hours (I think the one tower lasted around an hour and the other lasted about 2). That would give the fire enough time to compromise the steel holding up the building.

 

I understand that, but you still haven't answered why the buildings didn't tip over like they should have.

 

And maybe it was a slow-ass bomb release. Or maybe it wasn't a strong enough bomb, but it ate away at the building's structure, allowing for a delayed fall.

 

It still hasn't been proven this was a conspiracy, but denying the idea doesn't exist is stupid and ignorant. Either way, this is going to be locked seeing we are in YCM.

I don't know why the building didn't tip over, but you can't say it should have from the impact of the plane. The simple fact is a plane did hit the towers and for what ever reason that impact didn't cause them to fall.

 

As long as this topic doesn't get bad I see no reason why this would get locked and as long as that is so it will not get locked.

[The Dark One]

lol@misinformation.

 

First of all, Iraq was never related to 9/11, and outside of the occasional disingenuous refernce by some Republican talking head, it was never construed at such. Our invasion of Iraq was for entirely separate reasons. It was Afghanistan that we got involved in following 9/11.

 

Secondly, lol@conspiracy theories. Seriously, this isn't a debate, because no intelligent individual in their right mind could actually think otherwise, and those who don't fit those qualifications aren't fit to be debating anything.

 

Third, I do believe that the trade centers both came down within the hour. Could be wrong, but that's what I remember from the footage. Regardless, however, the planes were sufficient to knock them down. Earlier sabotage led to them to ensure that the trade centers could withstand a single-passenger plane, however a jet with at least a certain percentage of its fuel load traveling at high speeds. Different matter entirely. Didn't bring them down instantly, of course, but it did funk up the structural integrity. THose towers were coming down and everybody knew it.

 

While I have heard of those rumors of dynamite, etc. I'm not sure I put much stock in them. Why send a plane into the building if you already had explosives to do the job? It's not like dynamite's that hard to get. THe issue would have been getting it in the building. And if you can get some in, then you can get more in. Which means no point in a plane. Regardless of whether it's attributed to terrorism or government conspiracy.

 

I'm not an engineer, so I couldn't tell you why the building didn't tip and fall. But obviously the plane didn't have enough force to actually move it that much. I suspect that it would have to do with teh massive weight. The only place it could go was down, because no force acting on it was large enoug to send it in any other direction.

[Dark]

While I have heard of those rumors of dynamite, etc. I'm not sure I put much stock in them. Why send a plane into the building if you already had explosives to do the job? It's not like dynamite's that hard to get. THe issue would have been getting it in the building. And if you can get some in, then you can get more in. Which means no point in a plane. Regardless of whether it's attributed to terrorism or government conspiracy.

 

To make it more believable? I doubt anyone would believe terrorists were able to bomb a building without anyone knowing about it. Hijacking a plane. More believeable.

 

I'm not an engineer, so I couldn't tell you why the building didn't tip and fall. But obviously the plane didn't have enough force to actually move it that much. I suspect that it would have to do with teh massive weight. The only place it could go was down, because no force acting on it was large enoug to send it in any other direction.

 

We need the speed of the plane to determine anything at this point. T_T

[Flame Dragon]

We need the speed of the plane to determine anything at this point. T_T

We really don't. The Dark One's post reminded me that the towers were made to take a plane crash. Granted the scale of the attack isn't what the orginal build was made to take it is why the towers were able to survive. The damage the planes caused is what caused them to fall.

 

On the topic of when they fall if memory serves the south (I think that one, I know it was the one hit first) fall around 10:15. The attack themselves happened between 8 and 9:30 (again I'm going of memory but I know I'm in the general time frame) so at least one tower lasted some time. And I know the reason for this. The angle the plane had hit the builind wasn't as great as the other one and the impact was higher up meaning less over all damage was caused. This is what let the tower last as long as it did.

[Lonk]

I will give you a little background information for 9/11

 

At the time George H.W. Bush was president, there were rising tensions between the United States and Russia. George Bush gathered some Middle-Eastern countries for military training if Russia did plan an attack. These tensions, however, cooled down when Russia admitted that they did not want to hurt the United States. Osama Bin-Laden, unfortunantly, recieved that military training. At the time of the Gulf War, George H.W. Bush led a bombing assault that destroyed many of Afganistan's prized possessions. This is when Osama planned revenge against the United States. The first attempt to knock down the twin towers was a gasoline cargo truck going inside the twin towers and exploding. The Twin Towers survived this attack. After the failed attempt, Osama planned another assault of the Twin Towers. He planned to hijack planes going into the United States and hitting 4 major areas (1 is the Twin Towers, 1 is the Pentagon, 1 is in Pennsylvania, and I forgot the other one). Unfortunantly, this was a successful attempt that collapsed the Twin Towers, leaving literally millions dead. We call this incident, 9/11.

 

For this debate, I have to go with both sides. The United States did in fact, train the Middle Eastern countries to war against russia, and 9/11 was the terrorist response to the destruction that happened in Afghanistan.

[The Dark One]

I will give you a little background information for 9/11

 

At the time George H.W. Bush was president' date=' there were rising tensions between the United States and Russia. George Bush gathered some Middle-Eastern countries for military training if Russia did plan an attack. These tensions, however, cooled down when Russia admitted that they did not want to hurt the United States. Osama Bin-Laden, unfortunantly, recieved that military training. At the time of the Gulf War, George H.W. Bush led a bombing assault that destroyed many of Afganistan's prized possessions. This is when Osama planned revenge against the United States. The first attempt to knock down the twin towers was a gasoline cargo truck going inside the twin towers and exploding. The Twin Towers survived this attack. After the failed attempt, Osama planned another assault of the Twin Towers. He planned to hijack planes going into the United States and hitting 4 major areas (1 is the Twin Towers, 1 is the Pentagon, 1 is in Pennsylvania, and I forgot the other one). Unfortunantly, this was a successful attempt that collapsed the Twin Towers, leaving literally millions dead. We call this incident, 9/11.

 

For this debate, I have to go with both sides. The United States did in fact, train the Middle Eastern countries to war against russia, and 9/11 was the terrorist response to the destruction that happened in Afghanistan.

[/quote']

 

Eh, sort of. Al-Qaeda was actually a US supported group that wasn't only trained, but fought, against Russia WITHIN THE MIDDLE EAST. This was all contained in the area. Russia had influence in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and the US supported these freedom fighter movements to overthrow the proRussia governments at the time. Beyond this backend support, however, these organizations never had any great affiliation with the US. THey were always known to be radical, though they only turned against the US due to the actions you mentioned.

[Womi]

Voilà, we have a second Amethyst Phoenix.

[DARKPLANT RISING]

Thinking about Bush's stupidity and terrorism, he may have caused it. On the other hand, if that was the case, he isn't "he", it's supposed to be "it". *Deltora Quest References*

[The Dark One]

Thinking about Bush's stupidity and terrorism' date=' he may have caused it. On the other hand, if that was the case, he isn't "he", it's supposed to be "it". *Deltora Quest References*

[/quote']

 

Wow, I haven't read Deltora Quest in like 10 years. I miss those books.

 

 

But no, Bush is stupid, but not a terrorist.

[Pudpop]

Experts say' date=' that the buildings didn't just break down because of the planes. They found traces of (I think) dynamite in the ruins and the walls broke strangely in some places.

[/quote']

 

If Osama really did Hijack the planes, he could easily have snuck dynamite into it couldn't he?

 

If it was a USA conspiracy, Bush could've snuck the dynamite in somewhere. He was the freakin' president.

[Dark]

he could easily have snuck dynamite into it

 

But there is no point in doing that. =/

[Zimiri of the Muse]

im taking side a

If the Bush Admin. was planning 9/11, why didn't the media have a clue about the attack? The media can figure out darnnear everything.

you hit upon a key word, and if you think about it the president has many more resources at his disposal then the press

If 9/11 was a selfish-based attack, why would the govt. send planes crashing into the Pentagon? Govt. officials died from that particular attack.

the government is corrupt. who knows what they would have done to gain sympathy and support in the war, plus the publicity would end up losing support for iraq

 

After the 9/11 attack, the entire country was 'shut down'. The Supreme Court allowed your rights to be taken away, people were extensively searched, the plane/train system was heavily guarded, and extreme measures were taken. Why would the govt. want all these effects to take place from this attack?

to strike fear, to remind the people they help control over the whole country, also they wanted to show off their overall power

After 9/11, it's obvious that racial discrimination increased. Was this just a ploy to blame the attack on terrorism? yes?

[Dissonance]

Our story begins, as these stories often do, with an up-and-coming politician. He's a deeply religious man and a member of the conservative party. He is completely single-minded convictions and has no regard for the political process. Eventually, his party launches a special project in the name of 'national security'. At first, it is believed to be a search for nuclear weapons and it is pursued regardless of its cost. However, the true goal of the project is power, complete and total hegemonic domination. The project, however, ends violently... but the efforts of those involved are not in vain, for a new ability to wage war is born from the blood of one of their victims. Imagine a terrorist - the most terrifying terrorist you can, and then imagine that you and you alone have the cure. But if your ultimate goal is power, how best to use such a weapon? It is at this point in our story that along comes a spider. He is a man seemingly without a conscience; for whom the ends always justify the means and it is he who suggests that their target should not be an enemy of the country but rather the country itself. Three targets are chosen to maximize the effect of the attack: the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and the White House. Several hundred thousand die. Until at last the true goal comes into view. Before 9/11, no one would have predicted the outcome of the elections. No one. But after the election, lo and behold, an enemy. Some believed that it was the work of God himself, but it was a terrorist organization controlled by certain party members made them all obscenely rich, via oil stocks. But the true genius of the plan was the fear. A year later, several extremists are tried, found guilty, and executed while a memorial is erected to canonize their victims. Fear became the ultimate tool of this government. And through it our politician was ultimately appointed to the position of President. The rest, as they say, is history.

[~The Game~]

If the Bush Admin. was planning 9/11, why didn't the media have a clue about the attack? The media can figure out darn near everything.

 

Maybe they were bribed. That helps explain the screwy economy.

 

If 9/11 was a selfish-based attack, why would the govt. send planes crashing into the Pentagon? Govt. officials died from that particular attack.

 

To make it believable to the media.

 

After the 9/11 attack, the entire country was 'shut down'. The Supreme Court allowed your rights to be taken away, people were extensively searched, the plane/train system was heavily guarded, and extreme measures were taken. Why would the govt. want all these effects to take place from this attack?

 

To help keep it from the media.

 

After 9/11, it's obvious that racial discrimination increased. Was this just a ploy to blame the attack on terrorism?

 

Maybe, sounds believable.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

The specific models of planes used as a ploy in 9/11 had nifty built-in remote control override systems, used here to direct the planes toward the towers.

 

Secondly' date=' lol@conspiracy theories. Seriously, this isn't a debate, because no intelligent individual in their right mind could actually think otherwise, and those who don't fit those qualifications aren't fit to be debating anything.[/quote']

 

Back up your arrogance. You can only fool so many people by acting like you know three quarters of funk all.

 

Third' date=' I do believe that the trade centers both came down within the hour. Could be wrong, but that's what I remember from the footage. Regardless, however, the planes were sufficient to knock them down. Earlier sabotage led to them to ensure that the trade centers could withstand a single-passenger plane, however a jet with at least a certain percentage of its fuel load traveling at high speeds. Different matter entirely. Didn't bring them down instantly, of course, but it did f*** up the structural integrity. THose towers were coming down and everybody knew it.[/quote']

 

The buildings came down instantly. Jet fuel burns at a range of 800°F to 1500°F, it would have had needed to burn at 2750°F to even melt steel. The buildings came down INSTANTLY. On a typical weekday 50,000 people worked in the towers with another 200,000 passing through as visitors. These were LARGE funking buildings. Seriously, consider how disproportionate your argument is based on a complete lack of statistics and you should easily recognize that a jet would hardly dent the place.

 

While I have heard of those rumors of dynamite' date=' etc. I'm not sure I put much stock in them. Why send a plane into the building if you already had explosives to do the job?

It's not like dynamite's that hard to get. THe issue would have been getting it in the building. And if you can get some in, then you can get more in. Which means no point in a plane. Regardless of whether it's attributed to terrorism or government conspiracy.

[/quote']

 

Why should the government have any problem getting explosives into the building? WTC Security was Bush's to command. The goverment could waltz in and do whatever they want whenever. Random hoodlums couldn't. The planes were a ploy. Not a great one, but enough to fool total idiots, and that was enough for the Bush Administration.

 

I'm not an engineer' date=' so I couldn't tell you why the building didn't tip and fall. But obviously the plane didn't have enough force to actually move it that much. I suspect that it would have to do with teh massive weight. The only place it could go was down, because no force acting on it was large enoug to send it in any other direction.

[/quote']

 

Now, wasn't that just the cutest thing I've ever read? Yeah buddy, you're not an engineer.

 

If the Bush Admin. was planning 9/11, why didn't the media have a clue about the attack? The media can figure out darn near everything.

 

How was "the media" in any position to stand against the Bush Administration? The goverment controls the media.