Morphs

[burnpsy]

[quote name='Laevatein' timestamp='1282820986' post='4567193']
RfaDD?
[/quote]

In the Main or the Side?

[.Nu-13]

Wait, now i noticed:

WHY NO VALLEY?!?!?!?!?!??!?!

[burnpsy]

[quote name='Laevatein' timestamp='1282845424' post='4568031']
Wait, now i noticed:

WHY NO VALLEY?!?!?!?!?!??!?!
[/quote]

I ran out of space, sadly.

[Brandon Michael Geren]

You need to add back valley.

+3 Valley

It doesn't matter that you're out of space.

A 44 card deck with 3 Valleys is essentially a 38-41 card deck.

Valley provides deck-thinning as another target for Dupe.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='RobotBowtieOfDestruction' timestamp='1282855190' post='4568574']
You need to add back valley.
[/quote]

Space please. It would also be nice if you could find another space for the RftDD that Levia suggested too...

The one and only reason why Valley isn't there is space. Otherwise, I'd likely never remove it.

[Brandon Michael Geren]

Read my f***ing edit.

[burnpsy]

...I actually agree with that, surprisingly.

What about the RftDD? Without Heavy around, it can make big plays using Remoten and Valley's RFPs.

[center][img]http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2919/114253.jpg[/img]

[quote name='RftDD in this deck']
Activate only by paying half of your Life Points, removing a level 4 or lower "Morphtronic" monster in your Graveyard from play and discarding a "Junk Box" or "Monster Reborn" from your hand while you have 5 or more monsters removed from play. Select and activate 1 of the following effects:
● You can only activate this effect if 3 of your "Cyber Valley" are removed from play. Draw 6 cards.
● You can only activate this effect if 2 or more of your Tuners and 3 or more of your Non-Tuners were removed from play before the costs for this card were paid. Special Summon up to 3 Synchro Monsters from your Extra Deck (This Special Summon is treated as a Synchro Summon). After that, return 6 of your Monsters that are removed from play to your Graveyard, including at least 2 Tuners.
[/quote][/center]

[Brandon Michael Geren]

+1 RftDD?

42 isn't that much less consistent than 41.

I'm lol'ing at how big this deck is getting..


I guess I'll try to search really hard for space.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='RobotBowtieOfDestruction' timestamp='1282856338' post='4568648']
+1 RftDD?

42 isn't that much less consistent than 41.

I'm lol'ing at how big this deck is getting..


I guess I'll try to search really hard for space.
[/quote]

OK then.

And I know, right? Well, some people have made 45 work with enough deck-thinning... Also, the deck size was [b]48[/b] for quite a while after the list was announced.

[Brandon Michael Geren]

Maybe neg a Trap Stun? I'm not sure how well it's been working for you.

[burnpsy]

Trap Stun stops:

Mirror Force
Torrential Tribute
Bottomless Trap Hole
Dimensional Prison
Starlight Road
Skill Drain (temporarily)
Scrap-Iron Scarecrow (yes, I've seen people running this for some reason)
Other random Traps that would stop me

It's essentially my own personal copy of Solemn. The two copies have worked well.

[Brandon Michael Geren]

Then just +1 RftDD. This deck requires so much and there's so little space.

It's a serious 45 card deck.

Wow.

[j.e.l. rapp]

I MAY BE NEW TO THE SITE BUT I'VE BEEN USING MORPHS SINCE THEY'VE BEEN OUT. THIS IS MY EXTRA DECK... HOPE IT HELPS:

2X CHIMERATECH FORTRESS DRAGON
ARMORY ARM
ALLY OF JUSTICE CATASTOR
MAGICAL ANDROID
BRIONAC, DRAGON OF THE ICE BARRIER
GOYO GUARDIAN
BLACK ROSE DRAGON
ANCIENT SACRED WYVERN
ANCIENT FAIRY DRAGON (I ONLY USE THIS CAUSE I RUN A MORPHTRONIC MAP)
THOUGHT RULER
2X STARDUST DRAGON
COLOSSAL FIGHTER
XX-SABER GOTTOMS

[Brandon Michael Geren]

Shut up pro.

[burnpsy]

Aside from Catastor and Brionac (which I honestly don't need), how is that any better than mine?

[j.e.l. rapp]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1282857344' post='4568694']
Aside from Catastor and Brionac (which I honestly don't need), how is that any better than mine?
[/quote]


FLAMVELL, POWER TOOL, AND GAIA KNIGHT ARENT REALY THE BEST IDEA TO PUT IN THERE. JUST CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT CYBER DRAGON IS SOON TO BE AT 3, MORE PEOPLE ARE GONNA BE USING IT. 'TIS WHY I PREFER TO HAVE FORTRESS AT 2. BUT MORE ON SUBJECT, THOSE FIRST 2 CARDS THAT I JUST LISTED ARE POINTLESS BEATSTICS OUTSIDE THEIR RESPECTIVE DECKS AND GAIA KNIGHT IS JUST A ROOM FILLER FOR WHEN THERE'S NOTHING BETTER TO PUT IN.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='pro-nublett' timestamp='1282858245' post='4568750']
FLAMVELL, POWER TOOL, AND GAIA KNIGHT ARENT REALY THE BEST IDEA TO PUT IN THERE. JUST CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT CYBER DRAGON IS SOON TO BE AT 3, MORE PEOPLE ARE GONNA BE USING IT. 'TIS WHY I PREFER TO HAVE FORTRESS AT 2. BUT MORE ON SUBJECT, THOSE FIRST 2 CARDS THAT I JUST LISTED ARE POINTLESS BEATSTICS OUTSIDE THEIR RESPECTIVE DECKS AND GAIA KNIGHT IS JUST A ROOM FILLER FOR WHEN THERE'S NOTHING BETTER TO PUT IN.
[/quote]

Power Tool + Armory Arm is a pro play.

Also, the last two are temporary. Try opening the spoiler in the opening post.

[j.e.l. rapp]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1282859712' post='4568858']
Power Tool + Armory Arm is a pro play.

Also, the last two are temporary. Try opening the spoiler in the opening post.
[/quote]


I SEE... BUT I STILL DONT LIKE THE USE OF POWER TOOL (JUST MY OPINION, IGNORE IT IF YOU PLEASE) I WOULD RUN BRIONAC OVER POWER TOOL ANY DAY.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='pro-nublett' timestamp='1282860130' post='4568894']
I SEE... BUT I STILL DONT LIKE THE USE OF POWER TOOL (JUST MY OPINION, IGNORE IT IF YOU PLEASE) I WOULD RUN BRIONAC OVER POWER TOOL ANY DAY.
[/quote]

In this deck, hands are constantly empty or small. Brionac is pointless in here for that reason.

Meanwhile, LV7 is the most common level I can call upon, followed by 4 and 8. Amory Arm + PTD is a simple matter of Celfon getting Scopen while I have a LV4 and a revival card in hand.

In other news, I've actually run out of LV7s before. So I wouldn't drop any.

[HaouJudai]

Burnpsy, you can pick up a lot of the cards you are lacking (2 BRD?) at the event itself from vendors or from other duelists trading.

Get there as early as you can and get the lay of the land and pick up what cards you need there. When you receive the cards you've ordered just use them for trades or sell them on ebay. I imagine BRD will sell/trade very easily.

45 cards may work but at a major event I really wonder. The problem is though when I look at the deck to make changes it messes with the otk strategy with remoten. I favor the powertool equip card otk version with focus on scopen - the extra cards are probably necessary just to make remoten work.

This deck can spam level 7's like crazy - I really think your deck would pwn after December when Gnugnir comes out. I see you've got a thread posted here but you really need to get online or sit down and play test the freak outta this deck until the cards that need to be removed just become apparent.

Jeff Jones the champion from Edison had a quote in his sig that said 'Amateurs practice until they get it right Pros practice until they can't get it wrong'

The 5 cards that you need to remove will show themselves as you test over and over again. Get to it champ. Remember you're representing YCM.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1282873247' post='4569761']
Burnpsy, you can pick up a lot of the cards you are lacking (2 BRD?) at the event itself from vendors or from other duelists trading.

Get there as early as you can and get the lay of the land and pick up what cards you need there. When you receive the cards you've ordered just use them for trades or sell them on ebay. I imagine BRD will sell/trade very easily.
[/quote]

I have nothing anyone wants, so that just leaves buying separately. In any case, I can fit that if I can find one at the event. The decklist right now is assuming I find nothing.

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1282873247' post='4569761']
45 cards may work but at a major event I really wonder. The problem is though when I look at the deck to make changes it messes with the otk strategy with remoten. I favor the powertool equip card otk version with focus on scopen - the extra cards are probably necessary just to make remoten work.
[/quote]

I added exactly 1 card for Remoten. That would be Gottoms. Remoten actually INCREASES consistency of some cards that would otherwise be dead draws, such as Scopen by fetching a LV4, or getting any Morphtronic to be able to use Accelerator.

Equip Morphs are a different strategy entirely. Equip Morphs done right ends up slower than OTK Morphs. A fast Equip Morph deck is inconsistent.

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1282873247' post='4569761']
This deck can spam level 7's like crazy - I really think your deck would pwn after December when Gnugnir comes out. I see you've got a thread posted here but you really need to get online or sit down and play test the freak outta this deck until the cards that need to be removed just become apparent.

Jeff Jones the champion from Edison had a quote in his sig that said 'Amateurs practice until they get it right Pros practice until they can't get it wrong'

The 5 cards that you need to remove will show themselves as you test over and over again. Get to it champ. Remember you're representing YCM.
[/quote]

You're making it sound like I haven't been testing this deck several times after every suggested change. The problem is that there is practically no dead weight. My losses come from not being able to protect myself from my opponent for more than a few turns, not due to any inconsistency at all from the deck - the deck itself runs like a dream, nothing failing in particular - this would be the problem. Unlike many other decks where a card is inconsistent - thus leading to losses - this deck very rarely has a dead hand, and any dead cards are usually useful.

Example opening hand (from the period in which Valley was not in the build):

Celfon
Remoten
Remoten
Dupe
One for One
Torrential Tribute

With a hand like this, The smartest move is Celfon -> Dupe and getting a big play (which will usually happen). If the hand did not contain the second Remoten, Gottoms would have been a less lucksack-based opening play. However, as Valley was not in the deck when this hand came up, opening with Celfon -> Dupe makes One for One dead for the rest of the game. Furthermore, I can't summon Celfon and wait until after I use the first effect to see if dupe is needed, as Radion will screw with Dupe's requirements if it's the only Morphs I draw.

Stuff like this tends to happen, and it's annoying. While there would normally be a card in there for me to blame, there's nothing in there that is at fault in particular.

[HaouJudai]

no no. I am not saying your deck has any inconsistency at all. If it came across in that manner that was poor communication on my part. I have noticed that with more successful builds that after a lot of play testing (I use WC10) the cards that have less synergy with the overall theme work better.

You've got to get this build down to 40 cards though or your opening percentages are going to suffer for it.

http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=2363

[quote]Yugioh Fundamentals: Math

Math can be used in Yugioh. Heck, it is actually one of the most important elements of the game. If you look deeper than a simple plus and negative aspect, you can figure the odds of drawing any individual card, and put away luck as a factor with consistency. If you build a deck with the mathematical backing of drawing odds and card ratios, you have a much higher probability of drawing the way you predict. It is not probable to predict drawing a Dark Armed Dragon, but it is not out of the mathematical probability to draw a Kalut on your opening hand and draw.

Here is the basic probability formula:

1 - (Total # of cards in deck that are not the desired card / Total # of cards in deck) x (# of non-desired cards remaining in deck after first draw / # of cards remaining in deck) x (repeat steps for each additional draw)

So lets plus in a Six Card Hand when running three copies of a card, lowing down to two, and to one:

1 - (37/40) x(36/39) x (35/3Cool x (34/37) x (33/36) x (32/35)
= 1 - (34 x 33 x 32) / (40 x 39 x 3Cool
= 1 -.606
= 39.4 %


When running two cards, your odds are 28%, one card is 15%. Adding five cards to the deck increases the odds about 4%, and adding a single card sums up around 1% odds off.

Now, certainly the variables exist that if you draw one or draw one searcher the probability of drawing another is much more different. But for an opening hand, this is the golden formula.

Lets put this into perspective of a Black Wing deck. The odds of drawing Kalut on your opening hand is just under 40% (The actuality of getting it is about 39.4%) and of getting whirlwind is 28%. Subtracting a card from the deck makes about a 1% shift in the decks contents, and as such running one Upstart Goblin gives you better odds for drawing cards like Kalut. Adding three brings the odds up to 43%. The 43% is nearly every two games you can open with Kalut.

That gives you the same respective chance of having Battle Fader, rounded out of course. But lets assume you want an out/stop to a OTK. So your cards decked are 3 Battle Fader, one Gorz, and one Tragoedia. Adding additional probable options changes the formula,

1 - (35/40) x(34/39) x (33/3Cool x (32/37) x (31/36) x (30/35)

This greatly increases your odds of assuring you get a desired card in your opening hand.


Each additional card you draw should increase your odds of drawing a card by about 5% to get a specific card. So using formula one, you can increase odds to draw into one of the three cards to nearly 45%.

But the fact remains it a general deck building sense to dictate what you can draw. Let’s say you want to see your odds of drawing your tech. Your odds of drawing one Dark Armed Dragon are about 15%. These and many more values are easy to determine with a little bit of leg work.

Looking at the probability formula in a deeper sense, you can plus in variables for late game. If you went through about half your 40 card deck.

1 - ( the last few draws you took x # of copies) / ( the first draws you took x # of copies)

If you have three copied of a card in your 40 card deck, your odds after going though just about half your deck are over 84%! These odds are simply amazing. Odds are in your favor late game to draw into a card, and this makes figuring what you will draw easy.

Now, why are these values a challenge to players and an asset to prepared ones? This is much more simplistic than the actual equations. The odds of drawing into two exact cards, drawing Dark Armed Dragon, drawing two/three answer spells or into the one Lumina are extremely slim, for you and your opponent. You will never assume that an opponent will have such cards, it is not mathematically probable. A lot of ‘Pro’ player’s state is a challenging match-up to play against non-‘Pro’ players because they play in an unconventional manor. I disagree. It is just easier to play against yourself. If you build your deck mathematically sound, and so does your opponent or you know the statistics, you make different plays. You never assume it is the worst case scenario, but rather a more plausible answer. The player who has no idea the odds often will rely upon top decking and not conserve the ‘boss’ card as often, hoping they will draw another.

But in the total scheme of things, better player will save an answer card for a problem they know they cannot beat. Worse players will waste resources to topple such an issue and use one of few answers instantly. This has the benefit of giving better players dead cards a lot, but eventually they will become live, and then superior to the hand of an opponent. But playing against an equal player will make the same conservative assumptions you will, making games go to time or force you to make the best of every resource.

Knowing the odds simply allows a player to have certainty that when playing against a Perfect Harold deck, they will have just about three answers to several locks. Forcing them to waste resources early to make a play means if you last to a late game, you will win. Being a prepared player, combined with Meta knowledge, wins the game. By simply knowing the odds of getting into such a card you can make better decisions as per your aggression. My formula's are not exact (I have been using them for what, ten years?) but they were are the most simplistic way to address this. You can get more specific mathematically, which is fine. But often, due to other variables as far ranging as card thickness and sleeve size, it is impossible to get an exact figure of how likely you will be to draw a specific card. For generalization sake, my figures are fine.

Next Mathematical Rule: 8/40 Rule.

Simplified, 8/40 is 1/5. Or you will draw one of the eight cards in your opening hand. This is the premise behind Fifth Gadget. 45 card deck, nine Gadgets, or one fifth of the deck will be a Gadget. This is the golden rule of Mathematical Yugioh. No matter what I, your math teacher, Jae Kim, or your parents say, this is the single rule you must adhere to. If you want a way to get a card in all opening hands, you run three copies and five ways to draw it. It is that simple. This is an advanced concept, right? Not quite, but the outlets to get into those eight are.

This brings me to the role of Floaters. This portion would have a better role in Advantage, as a Floater is a monster which replaces itself. Sangan, Mystic Tomato, Gadgets, Machina Gearframe, Stratos, Shining Angel, ect. Floaters allow a player to toolbox. It is effectively a tool to get any desired card. Old school decks, in the age of control or beat down, abused the concept of Floaters. They did not want to thin into a win condition put to have advantage for pressure. Surely you can follow why, no broken win conditions means that the simple plus should give you the mathematical win. But floaters now have a different role entirely, a role in the 8/40 rule.

Floaters can now help your opponent. BW Shura and Flamvell Firedog capitalize off of floaters, and Frog-Archs just use them to pump out a monster via Soul Exchange. Due to this, the mathematical advantage is nullified due to the superior advantage the common beating monsters provide. This makes a few match-ups unfavorable for the mathematically sound player. To counter act this, you need to give your floaters a higher purpose. A higher purpose in terms of getting not only mathematical advantage, but giving you a superior condition than my aforementioned common monsters provide.

I best use Machina Gearframe to describe the perfect role of a floater now. It gets you Machina Fortress. Machina Gadget decks stick to the rule of 8/40 in most situations currently. Two Machina Peacekeeper, Three Machina Gearframe, and Three Machine Fortress. Eight ways to get Fortress. This is a superior condition than Shura or Firedog can provide, as simply put, Fortress is the bigger and more deadly card in all situations, and provides amazing pressure and control. Peacekeeper is a terrible card by all means, but its ability is amplified due to its role in the mathematical principles behind assuring Machina Fortress. All decks which run floaters need to stick to such a principle to win games, if not the floaters will do more harm than good.

Back to the 8/40 rule after a slight detour into the floater world. If you construct a deck to give you the golden 1/5 rule in all situations, you can all but assure you will have the card you need to win in all games. This is much more fundamental than the first mathematical principle of figuring the odds of drawing one of your tech cards; this is rather the way to assure your engine will go off each game. To exemplify this point I will venture onto a deck which uses specific win conditions. LightSworn is that such deck. In the past the singular theme of LS had two win conditions, Lumina and Judgment Dragon. Hybrids had the range of three to five. But for simplicity sake, we will use standard LS. Three Lumina, Two Judgment Dragons, Three Charge of the Light Brigade. Standard LS assured they would have a win condition in a frequency of 1/5, meaning the deck could get a way to win turn one, each game.

Using this rule is the golden standard to show you if your deck will be able to win on a consistent basis. Other mathematical theories have a non-direct approach to a win ratio, but this is the most direct method. If you can get your boss monster turn one, you already have a leg up on your opponent. This 8/40 rule should be memorized by all players for this simple reason. If your deck doesn’t have access to a way to win in this frequency, another deck will. On the opposite side of the coin, if you draw it in too much frequency (Thinning in addition to floaters/searchers), your deck will be inconsistent and cloggy. It is more than ideal to stick to the 8/40 rule at all times. [/quote]

But looking at the deck, since I don't run morphs I can't see anything off hand - I do know most of the OTK morphs I've seen that run reasoning also run monster gate - but I saw that it had been taken it had been taken out earlier in the thread. You seem to have the deck running very smoothly and you're a very skilled player to be able to make a 45 card deck work.

Burn you've got to get this down to 40 though. I could see someone doing a 45 card deck for lolz at a local but not going to a YCS. The lion share of your deck is monsters. Would it be easy to trim them down into pairs? -1 cydra -1 remoten -1 valley then look at mirror force - I personally feel it's a sitting duck this next format with dust tornado and typhoon ran in multiples. so -mirror - that's 4 cards right there. Another idea is to side Gorz. Which I run Dark Gaia OTK so I understand how valuable he is in main deck. I'm iffy on that suggestion.

I'm not trying to attack the remoten strategy or valley - just brainstorming ideas and suggestions because this has to be trimmed down before Toronto. I want you to succeed and I want this poll to change directions and reflect your future success. Whoever Bowtie is - they seem to have some very good ideas for the deck.

In my Dark Gaia OTK deck I main 3 cards for when I'm left wide open - 2 Battle Fader and 1 Gorz. I side 3 Threatening Roar. Something I've noticed about threatening roar is that it keeps you alive for 1 more turn. 1 more draw. The same thing you're getting from valley right now and roar wouldn't take away your normal summon. Just another idea.

Don't get distracted by the fact I'm comparing apples and oranges here morphs/dark gaia - focus on your deck and trimming it down for the event. I don't run your deck so I can't look at it and say ' -X +X' however due to many years of yugioh experience (I was in Japan from 1999 to 2002, have played TCG from 2002 to present - judge since 2005 ude - now a judge for konami) I know that pretty much every single major competitor that I know personally run around 40 cards.

I have seen a few (very few) that will go 41 or 42 if the performance of the deck reflects better at those numbers. Maybe this is a new animal and I just don't understand how it works since I don't run it but I think the best idea is to play test those 5 extra cards out of the main into the side for now.

Don't defend the deck. Examine it. This is not an attack. It's heartfelt advice from years of experience. tbh if you can't see that then I'll just let Toronto teach you what I'm trying to here.

I hope for your great success at this event - and if you have a great day with 45 cards I'd love to hear about it - maybe the game has changed so much that this number of cards in main will actually function. Good luck and have a great event as well as a safe trip!

[.Nu-13]

45 cards??? Does it play well?

[.Leo]

To get to at least 43, neg side 1 Trap Stun, then neg a Remoten.

[.Nu-13]

[quote name='LeoMence' timestamp='1282911209' post='4570636']
then neg a Remoten.
[/quote]

[img]http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/4315/78049157.png[/img]

Obviously, you don't know Remoten + Machine Dupe = Gottoms?