Dark Hole

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1293145777' post='4878215']
While it's true that TT has a limited activation window, it's not an unreasonable one. The opponent performing the action that you want to cancel out is what triggers your ability to cancel it out. TT's timing hasn't really been a bother to me at all.

Also, OTKs should theoretically be canceled out by the fact that Heavy was banned and thus the backrow is relevant again. We have things like Book of Moon, Mirror Force, and Battle Fader to stop OTKs. Without a mass-backrow wipe, it shouldn't really be an issue. I've been running OTK for who knows how long, and I can't really just spam one out whenever I want when I constantly see 2-3 face-downs in my way.
[/quote]
It's not unreasonable to stop your opponent for killing you. Unlike Hole, TT can only open up the field for an OTK or massive damage swing if your opponent was already planning the same thing and was to reckless to account for a face down. Hole comes from the Hand and their is no way to know when that might be sprung and, as said, Hole gives you a chance to swing for game when you do drop it.

Your acting like we don't have other cards to take care of the back row. Trunade comes to mind as meeting the same ends as Heavy when it comes to OTK so even with out Heavy other cards can do similar jobs.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1293146965' post='4878310']
Your acting like we don't have other cards to take care of the back row. Trunade comes to mind as meeting the same ends as Heavy when it comes to OTK so even with out Heavy other cards can do similar jobs.
[/quote]

There are only three non-banned cards that do an adequate job of handling a backrow of more than two cards on their own: Decree, Trap Stun and Trunade. We already see Decree a lot, but it doesn't stop Fader, Book or Enemy Controller. Trap Stun isn't seen at all anymore and runs into the same problem. As for Trunade, let's be realistic here. How often do you see someone draw both together, and how is that more broken than simply summoning Black Rose without using your Normal Summon? The chances of drawing two specific Limited cards out of a deck of 40 isn't spectacular, especially if you run the ubiquitous Ryko and thus run the chance of missing one for the entire game.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1293151335' post='4878524']
There are only three non-banned cards that do an adequate job of handling a backrow of more than two cards on their own: Decree, Trap Stun and Trunade. We already see Decree a lot, but it doesn't stop Fader, Book or Enemy Controller. Trap Stun isn't seen at all anymore and runs into the same problem. As for Trunade, let's be realistic here. How often do you see someone draw both together, and how is that more broken than simply summoning Black Rose without using your Normal Summon? The chances of drawing two specific Limited cards out of a deck of 40 isn't spectacular, especially if you run the ubiquitous Ryko and thus run the chance of missing one for the entire game.
[/quote]
If you want to talk odds your talking about a card that is currently at one so the odds of even just drawing that are small. Also you don't need to draw two limited cards, it's 1 limited card and with Trunade or Royal, since it works just as well. Also, while I haven't been following the meta, I'm sure their are archetype specific cards that serve meet the same ends as Trunade. And speaking of Trunade it is a watered down Heavy, much like Lightning Vortex is to Raigeki, so what merit is there in keeping a broken card, or one this absurdly powerful, when a much more fair card exists that serves the same job.

All Book and Controller do is stop a single attacker so even if it's not an OTK but the opponent can still take massive damage. Fader is always a problem for OTKs since little can be done to stop it. But just because a counter exists doesn't mean it will be available when it's needed.

So, what is your stance on Raigeki since Dark Hole will almost act as one.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1293154533' post='4878641']
So, what is your stance on Raigeki since Dark Hole will almost act as one.
[/quote]

Honestly, I've mainly seen Dark Hole used to get rid of one problem monster, not loads - but that's beside the point.

While Dark Hole and [url="http://www.dicts.info/2/english-japanese_romaji.php?word=raigeki&begin=Search"]Torpedo Attack[/url] are usually used for similar roles, there's a major difference here in the fact that your field has to be empty for Dark Hole to be Torpedo Attack - you can't just mindlessly flaunt Dark Hole around in the same fashion, you have to get your entire move ready in one turn when you use Dark Hole. With Torpedo Attack, you can be partially set up from earlier turns, use Torpedo Attack, and continue getting ready.

Also, while not major, Dark Hole doesn't combo with Cyber Dragon like Torpedo Attack does. Plus, I'm sure you'd be hesitant to use Dark Hole if you have a worthwhile monster out.

Both have similar roles, but the comparison isn't as close as it looks on first glance. Having no monsters out is a tall order unless your opponent just used their own nuke to get rid of them (the first turn of the game notwithstanding), in which case I'd say being nuked back seems perfectly fair.

[Thelinil]

Dark hole is part of the game, if you don't like it being there, don't play the game. I could care less, yes I hate it when it's played against me, but its sweet sweet victory to use it against someone else. Besides, if Dark Hole isn't used, then Lightning Vortex is, or something else becomes staple.

[Bahamut - Envoy of the End]

[quote name='Thelinil' timestamp='1293158051' post='4878813']
Dark hole is part of the game, if you don't like it being there, don't play the game. I could care less...
[/quote]

Daft comment is daft, if you said that to everyone who commented on a card they didn't like, there wouldn't be a lot of opponents for you.

Been a good argument this, with good points for both sides. I agree with Flame Dragons comments though.

[Superdoopertrooper]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1293142197' post='4878004']
That same post could have been about Torrential Tribute, but nobody has a problem with that.
[/quote]
I do. Torrential needs to be banned as well. All costless field clearers should be.

[Manjoume Thunder]

[quote]I do. Torrential needs to be banned as well. All costless field clearers should be.[/quote]

all idiots should be banned, too

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

[quote name='Thelinil' timestamp='1293158051' post='4878813']
Dark hole is part of the game, if you don't like it being there, don't play the game. I could care less, yes I hate it when it's played against me, but its sweet sweet victory to use it against someone else. Besides, if Dark Hole isn't used, then Lightning Vortex is, or something else becomes staple.
[/quote]
Sad, even I think this post is stupid and I run a recycle burn deck. To me, TT is better but only in specific situations. let's say your opponent runs an infernity deck that focuses on High atk synchros like Red dragon. You're opponent is has just special summoned their 4th synchro. Activate TT. Though the infernity would have to horrible to not use Mist Wurm and SD. Dark Hole is good as well but it's an eh for me. unless my opponent is setting up their OTK then i'm not using dark hole because if they get it out before I realize what they're doing then I'm screwed. TT has an app for that *pun*

[DARKPLANT RISING]

You know, you guys might object, but I personally think this is good at 1. Heavy storm should be at 0.

Just an opinion.

[Manjoume Thunder]

[quote]this is good at 1. Heavy storm should be at 0.[/quote]

seconded

[-Griffin]

[quote name='=Evangelion=' timestamp='1293184398' post='4879648']
You know, you guys might object, but I personally think this is good at 1. Heavy storm should be at 0. Just an opinion.
[/quote]


[quote name='Manjoume Thunder' timestamp='1293184501' post='4879654']
seconded
[/quote]

Gotta agree with these. People should stop complaining about cards that are where they should be.