whats worst war for the sake of religion or war for the sake of imperialsm?

[Desu the Blue Nerd]

"A war over religion is a war over who has the best imganary friend."-I forgot who said that.

But let's face it. It's true. A war for religion is a war fought to force your ideals and opinions onto others. A war for Imperealism is a war to gain power or as Glorious said for survival. War for religions also tend to last longer as said although wars then were fought with sticks and stones. Not high velocity sniper rifle rounds and predator missiles. It's also true though that pretty much any war has traces of religion in it.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='NoBeginning' timestamp='1299278104' post='5051157']
"A war over religion is a war over who has the best imganary friend."-I forgot who said that.

But let's face it. It's true. A war for religion is a war fought to force your ideals and opinions onto others. A war for Imperealism is a war to gain power or as Glorious said for survival. War for religions also tend to last longer as said although wars then were fought with sticks and stones. Not high velocity sniper rifle rounds and predator missiles. It's also true though that pretty much any war has traces of religion in it.
[/quote]
War is entertainment for the masses...

[Glоrious]

[quote name='AsterikcAde' timestamp='1299263410' post='5050579']
Don't act all innocent you know that this is the truth, all of this bullshit about peace and freedom is nothing but a lie, our very existence is a prison and as long as their intelligent lifeforms like us Humans on this planet, there will always be chaos. Religion, war, political bureaucratic nonsense, who created all of this? US! HUMANS!
[/quote]
Okay, let's see what you wrote. Since that "lolwhat" didn't seem to have an impact at what you said.

[quote]This is all I have to say, as long as their are intelligent beings on this planet, War will always be a constant, even after our species is long gone from this miserable little planet, a new intelligent species will take our place and even more and horrible wars will continue.[/quote]
You got the first part right, then you drifted into "end of human race" "new intelligent species". 1) The human race won't end any time soon. Birth rate far exceeds death rate in our current era, and we will flourish as time progresses. 2) What is this "new intelligent species"? When human race becomes extinct, all life becomes extinct. Quite illogical to assume intelligent life just appears out of the blue like that.

[quote]. Let's face it, there's no such thing as peace, freedom, and equality, IT'S ALL A LIE, it's a pipe dream, the only way to feel at peace, feel free, and feel equal is when we are DEAD.[/quote]
Peace: the absence of war. I'm living in peace at my home as I type this. What'chu talkin' 'bout, boy?
Freedom: can be defined many ways. But, other than natural law, all humans have freedom to do willy nilly (it's called free will, key word "free").
Equality: not exactly something we're dying to see. Maybe a problem in the past, but equality isn't so much a problem this era.
Yes, it's all a lie, a pipe dream, a stupid idea brought up by the forefathers. Jesus, bro. Down much?
If you think that death is the solution, why don't you go kill yourself? Ya, that's what I thought.
Live life to it's fullest. Why stay down cause of your crappy government? The only thing that brings me down is the death of others. You seem to think that brings peace and freedom. Yet, it seems I only have that when death isn't around.

[quote]And one more point, Religion and Government, you can't have one without the other because Religion controls the Government and the Government pays the Religious Corporation (YES I SAID IT CORPORATION), in reality, there is no such thing as Separation of Church and State, that is all a lie, when religion is dead, government is dead, think about what I'm saying. Plain truth.[/quote]
Plain truth? I see, so what you're saying is, religion is the problem. Sounds like a logical analysis, except one thing: religion has no role in most governments. It's people. "Oh ya, Barbara, it says it here in the Bible that I can invade Iraq. Yep, Kennedy 9:11 'thou can invade Middle Eastern territory without a proper and logical reason. Also, thou can interfere with all things as long as thou has a big ego'." "Okay then, George. As long as it's in the Presidential Bible!"

[AsterikcAde]

[quote name='Glоrious' timestamp='1299281318' post='5051275']
Okay, let's see what you wrote. Since that "lolwhat" didn't seem to have an impact at what you said.


You got the first part right, then you drifted into "end of human race" "new intelligent species". 1) The human race won't end any time soon. Birth rate far exceeds death rate in our current era, and we will flourish as time progresses. 2) What is this "new intelligent species"? When human race becomes extinct, all life becomes extinct. Quite illogical to assume intelligent life just appears out of the blue like that.


Peace: the absence of war. I'm living in peace at my home as I type this. What'chu talkin' 'bout, boy?
Freedom: can be defined many ways. But, other than natural law, all humans have freedom to do willy nilly (it's called free will, key word "free").
Equality: not exactly something we're dying to see. Maybe a problem in the past, but equality isn't so much a problem this era.
Yes, it's all a lie, a pipe dream, a stupid idea brought up by the forefathers. Jesus, bro. Down much?
If you think that death is the solution, why don't you go kill yourself? Ya, that's what I thought.
Live life to it's fullest. Why stay down cause of your crappy government? The only thing that brings me down is the death of others. You seem to think that brings peace and freedom. Yet, it seems I only have that when death isn't around.


Plain truth? I see, so what you're saying is, religion is the problem. Sounds like a logical analysis, except one thing: religion has no role in most governments. It's people. "Oh ya, Barbara, it says it here in the Bible that I can invade Iraq. Yep, Kennedy 9:11 'thou can invade Middle Eastern territory without a proper and logical reason. Also, thou can interfere with all things as long as thou has a big ego'." "Okay then, George. As long as it's in the Presidential Bible!"
[/quote] Life is always adaptable, when we are extinct from Earth life always have a way of coming back and starting a whole cycle over again, don't underestimate nature. As for peace, just like in the past, things have to fall apart, we're living in a chaotic world with wars all over the place and you may think you're safe and in peace but in actuality in the real world, there is not peace on this Earth period, until us Humans set our ego aside and get along (which will never happen in a million years), we will not see peace in this life, so forget peace, War is the only thing that keeps us Humans thriving for more. Our forefathers are nothing but Englishmen that colonized a country for power not the so-called "enlightenment", they raped, murdered, and pillage an indigenous people just to gain control of a land, and you tell me is that Peace? In my opinion I think the whole thing about Equality, and Freedom and respecting the rights of other men back then in the days of George Washington is only for "UPPER CLASS WHITE MEN", yeah, keep on rooting for the people that oppressed other people just to make a point. Equality, yeah right, history always repeat itself, by the time we know it certain people won't have rights unless they abide by certain rules set by oppressors, that my friend will indeed happen sooner or later and I'm not advocating suicide, I'm just saying the bonds of your soul living on this Earth is keeping you from the real freedom everybody should feel, and mean in this time and era we're living, jobs, bills, money, it's all keeping you in a bondage, we're never really truly free no matter how you look at it. As for Religion, it is nothing but a cesspool of nonsense, just look at history, religion has always played a part in Government and do you think that a written doctrine that says "Separation of Church and State" here in America changes anything? HELL NO! The government and religious foundations have and are still working behind the curtains, don't be blind, I've open my eyes to what the real domain of all of this s*** we're living in, as long as we live, this cycle of endless misery will keep on going and going.

[WTFauKorean]

awesome brainstorm/ideals/flamewars guys its giving me a raging brainer, ive never been able to do a proper thesis on thesis on this because i never had one, i still cant decide after going through the trouble of throwing up the question in the first place X_X

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='AsterikcAde' timestamp='1299200624' post='5049436']
Everything this guy said.
[/quote]
inb4diesat21asananarchistsuicidebomber

The advantage of imperialistic wars is that (depending on the war itself, of course), it's in the interest of the invader to end the war efficiently, and in fact have no war at all. Empires like Rome and Persia were successful partly because they were the first to think of treating conquered subjects with any decency.

In the Crusades, if you left someone alive, you were doingitwrong.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

All wars are good in my opinion... (cuz im a warmonger) But I would rather have a religous war than one for imperialism..

[Kenny Bohner]

Well, I agree that religion is just a tool for Imperialists, but, to answer the original question, I think that a war fought for religion is much worse. Imperialism, killing for no other reason than to expand you territory, is undoubtedly wrong. However, it is what it is; it's not war for the sake of war, masked by saying things like "God(s) want(s) us to." No, wars for religion are the most oppressive things on this planet, claiming more blood than most if not all other human actions, and for what? Nothing gained.

[waterwhip]

religious because unlike building an empire you do it out of misguided beliefs like that native americans were savages or longer standing ones like in the middle east. Just wanted to say sometimes a war falls in both catagories like in WW2.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='waterwhip' timestamp='1302850485' post='5139761']
religious because unlike building an empire you do it out of misguided beliefs like that native americans were savages or longer standing ones like in the middle east. Just wanted to say sometimes a war falls in both catagories like in WW2.
[/quote]
Again I would rather have a religious war with people fighting and killing for what they believe in then imperialist wars bent on useless destruction based on greed...

[waterwhip]

[quote name='Identity Unknown' timestamp='1302892767' post='5140587']
Again I would rather have a religious war with people fighting and killing for what they believe in then imperialist wars bent on useless destruction based on greed...
[/quote]
but at least when its by greed it doesnt last long when its by religion its the worst because it makes long times of racism

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='waterwhip' timestamp='1302898359' post='5140789']
but at least when its by greed it doesnt last long when its by religion its the worst because it makes long times of racism
[/quote]
When it comes down to "Racism" verbally wise... They are just words that can not physically hurt someone and every person should understand that and not be affected by it... But people acknowledge it anyways...

[Raine]

War for religion is far worse, Imperialism can be justified and yes money, power, land, force are all good reasons. Who doesn't love a good empire seriously? Religion is an easy system of establishing morals and laws into the hearts and minds of a people but unfortanity it seems this causes people to group and people under another system group and boom you have 2 armies ready to go. Imperialism is at least for progress. War is valuable, alot of technologies have been produced in war and have non war used such as rocket and penicillin. The world ticks and old fashion religious war does not help as much as a progressive one.

[AsianGuy1137]

Maybe something more rudimental should be explored. What is war in the first place and what are its origins? Are wars a reflection of our innate capacity to destroy for our own basic needs and ultimately our survival? Or are wars a product of our beliefs, influenced by our collective experiences and interactions with the world? If there was a way to qualify the cause(s) for war, then there might also be a solution to prevent war.

In the case of the former, resources in the world are not infinite, but from what I've learned about the subject, it's estimated that there's more than enough food to feed the current global population. The problem lies in distribution mostly as a result of greed or inefficiency, which is unfortunately a manifestation of what I consider to be our inherent human nature. Having the resources essential to life is tantamount to having control over people's lives which is power to do as one pleases. Maybe someday in the future, GMO's or having very efficient and renewable sources of energy like say solar power or maybe abundant resources from other planets in our solar system will be able to resolve the problem. The manga Planetes explores this idea, and it is by far one of the best manga I've ever read.

In the case of the latter, I believe that our stances on life are a result of our experiences with the world in which our actions affect the world which in turn affects us in a cycle of reciprocal determinism. Given how almost every country, even the supposed allied nations of the West, all have varying and ultimately self-centered motives that govern their respective actions, I don't believe achieving true equality is possible. For example, the current materialism that we as citizens of Western nations shamelessly pursue is dependent on exploiting cheap labor from less developed peripheral nations around the world. If they were to attain more liberty and civil rights, they will inevitably attain similar standards of living which would drastically reduce our own. Again, relying on the argument that people are inherently selfish, there is little to no incentive for pursuing this action, either from the Western core nations themselves or the governments that rely on the current worldwide economic system to sustain their own positions and keep themselves rich at the expense of their own countrymen. This is already starting to realize in developing nations like India and China, both of which are developing much more lavish living standards, directly from the influences of the West. My parents could recount how having bicycles, a television set, a radio, and modern kitchen/hygiene appliances was a sign of fortune. Now everyone always wants a newer car, a bigger tv set, a better house, the newest appliances/technology, a bigger paycheck, etc. It's a vicious cycle, but because it's also largely determined by our own actions, I like to believe that someday we might be able to break free from it and help everyone achieve some level of equality, which basically amounts to hopeless idealism at this point.

So, in short, war is fundamentally rooted in our human nature which simultaneously affects the world while also being affected by the world. Until that can be changed, I don't believe true peace can ever be achieved. Also, sorry I didn't contribute to the topic discussion, but I believe my stance has been covered very well by the people who've stated that both are ultimately tied together by the imperfections of human nature.