Dark Flattop

[Arctic_Circle34]

[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1296769100' post='4985393']
No, it's not a ruling; it's a fundamental rule: "ignoring the Summoning Conditions" can't summon a Semi-Nomi or Nomi monster from the Graveyard if it wasn't summoned properly. Note that this rule only works for Semi-Nomi/Nomis in the Graveyard allowing Horus LV8 to be summoned by Level Up!.

You have to summon SKY FIRE first in order to resurrect it with Dark Flat Top.
[/quote]


I would like to compare this situation to one of Blackwing Vayu. Now you remove your Vayu and BW for a Special Summon of a Blackwing Synchro, this case Blackwing Armed Wing. Now note, this summon was not proper, therefore if it were to be sent to the Graveyard, it could not be brought back simply with Monster Reborn, etc.

At this time, BW Armed Wing becomes the same as a Flying Fortress SKY FIRE in the Graveyard, whether SKY FIRE was summoned properly or not, since it is a Nomi monster and cannot be Special Summoned except by his effect.

HOWEVER, for this example, Dark Flat Top can bring back a SKY FIRE, ignoring the summoning conditions.

Now, why is it that we can't Special Summon BW AW from the Graveyard with Monster Reborn, because of the condition of the summoning that he took, which was improper. Condition of the summoning, or SUMMONING CONDITION.

But in the case of Dark Flat Top, when it summons a monster from the Graveyard, it ignores its summoning condition, and therefore erases and negates any need to be summoned properly.

The fact that a Semi-Nomi or Nomi monster has to be summoned properly before it can be summoned improperly by a card effect is invalid, since the effect of Level Up! allows a monster such as Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8 to be summoned improperly, which in this case means SKY FIRE can be summoned improperly just as well. Whether the Nomi monster is in the Graveyard or not is irrelevant.

There is no ruling on anything involving the proper/improper summoning and re-summoning of Nomi monsters, but only Semi-Nomi monsters and the re-summoning by normal Special Summon effects, such as Monster Reborn, Call of the Haunted, etc.

[evilfusion]

[quote name='Arctic_Circle34' timestamp='1296763859' post='4985189']
Actually, there is no ruling on that. If that is true and you have to summon SKY FIRE properly first, then in the same term, Level Up! can't Summon Horus LV8, or Ultimate Ancient Gear Golem can't summon Ancient Gear Golem.

As of now, there is no ruling, but judging by how Level Up! and UAGG work, I would say that you can mill SKY FIRE and bring it back with Dark Flat Top, even if it wasn't summoned properly.
[/quote]

It's the semi-Nomi/Nomi game mechanic. They cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard or RFG zone unless they were properly Special Summoned.

Dark Flat Top Special Summons from the Graveyard, which the Nomi Rule dictates requires the monster to be Special Summoned properly first.

With Level Up's case, it Special Summons from the hand or deck, and it requires the loss of a specific monster. I cannot think of too many other cards that "Ignore the Summoning Condition" that Special Summon from the hand or deck, leaving me to believe that the Nomi Rule only applies to the Graveyard and RFG zone, but if you can ignore the Summoning Condition from the hand or deck, it will be allowed.

Ultimate Ancient Gear states to ignore the Summoning Condition because Ancient Gear Golem's Summoning Condition is: "This card cannot be Special Summoned". Since it cannot be Special Summoned in the first place, you can "ignore the Summoning Condition" and Special Summon it. That's all it means, because Ancient Gear Golem isn't a Nomi/Semi-Nomi (those being cards with specific restrictions on Special Summoning, and can't be Normal Summoned) You don't need to have Normal Summoned it first, because Normal Summon only monsters aren't the same as Nomis or Semi-Nomis.

[quote name='Arctic_Circle34' timestamp='1296796172' post='4986316']
I would like to compare this situation to one of Blackwing Vayu. Now you remove your Vayu and BW for a Special Summon of a Blackwing Synchro, this case Blackwing Armed Wing. Now note, this summon was not proper, therefore if it were to be sent to the Graveyard, it could not be brought back simply with Monster Reborn, etc.

At this time, BW Armed Wing becomes the same as a Flying Fortress SKY FIRE in the Graveyard, whether SKY FIRE was summoned properly or not, since it is a Nomi monster and cannot be Special Summoned except by his effect.

HOWEVER, for this example, Dark Flat Top can bring back a SKY FIRE, ignoring the summoning conditions.

Now, why is it that we can't Special Summon BW AW from the Graveyard with Monster Reborn, because of the condition of the summoning that he took, which was improper. Condition of the summoning, or SUMMONING CONDITION.

But in the case of Dark Flat Top, when it summons a monster from the Graveyard, it ignores its summoning condition, and therefore erases and negates any need to be summoned properly.

The fact that a Semi-Nomi or Nomi monster has to be summoned properly before it can be summoned improperly by a card effect is invalid, since the effect of Level Up! allows a monster such as Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8 to be summoned improperly, which in this case means SKY FIRE can be summoned improperly just as well. Whether the Nomi monster is in the Graveyard or not is irrelevant.

There is no ruling on anything involving the proper/improper summoning and re-summoning of Nomi monsters, but only Semi-Nomi monsters and the re-summoning by normal Special Summon effects, such as Monster Reborn, Call of the Haunted, etc.
[/quote]

Again, not the same. Fusion and Synchro monsters are not Nomis, but they follow the Nomi rule in relation to being Special Summoned after Summoning. Unless they specifically say so, Fusions and Synchros CAN be Special Summoned from the [b]Extra Deck[/b] by different means (Metamorphosis, Starlight Road, Synchro Change). However, they cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard or RFG zone if they were not properly Fusion/Synchro Summoned.

Nomis and Semi-Nomis can only be Special Summoned from the hand unless specifically permitted (SK's effect lets you Special Summon SKYFIRE from the hand, deck, or Graveyard).

And again, I'll point out that Level Up specifically allows from the hand or deck, and because of the extremely limited number of examples that support this permission, I conclude that the Nomi rule applies only to the Graveyard or RFG Zone, unless you have another example of a card that "Ignores the Summoning Condition" that Summons from the hand or deck. The only one that comes to mind is Spell Gear, which Summons Ancient Gear Golem, but Ancient Gear Golem is an amusingly contrary card, being the only monster I can think of that "Cannot be Special Summoned", but has support that allows it to be Special Summoned (this support states to ignore Summoning Conditions).

You know the reason Dark Flat Top states to ignore Summoning Conditions? Because SKYFIRE is a Nomi, and specifically states it cannot be Special Summoned except by SK's effect. Until you fulfill that, SKYFIRE cannot have its Summoning Condition ignored.

Level Modulation Special Summons a LV monster from the Graveyard and ignores Summoning Conditions. You still cannot use it on Horus 8 if you didn't Special Summon Horus properly. This supports that Dark Flat Top cannot revive SKYFIRE that wasn't properly Summoned first.

[Zkaiser]

[quote name='=Evangelion=' timestamp='1294455715' post='4919107']
It's arguably one of the most easily summoned "Dark Synchros".
[/quote]
The undisputed easiest is Dark Diviner.

[evilfusion]

Infernities insist Hundred Eyes Dragon is easiest.

[wiithepeople]

Karakuri Reactor.dek anyone?