Darth Revan of the Sith Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 [quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1312740343' post='5422356'] I go back to the chopping off an arm to get into college comparison; having a guaranteed way to obtain a higher education would be good for you, right? But of course, the baby can't take that kind of decision for themselves! Logically, the parents should chop their kid's arm off! It's for their own good! They can't tell the difference between an arm and a leg anyhow, they won't know what they're missing! [/quote] Please there is a huge difference between an arm and a guys d***... Its just a piece of foreskin... Stop comparing those two when the foreskin isn't even important... This is such a meaningless thing to debate about... An arm is totally different... It is just a piece of foreskin! It wont cause trauma, it wont kill you, in fact it benefits you and you expect parents to wait until their stupid kid gets the brains to learn what HIV and AIDS is? I think not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 [quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1312741211' post='5422392'] Alright, so I wasn't as specific in my first iteration of the argument. Doesn't change the point I'm making. [/quote] Also, read through my posts. Nowhere have I said all children should be circumcised, but I've said it should be the parent's choice because they are more educated and can make better decisions than their newborn child. They are able to look at the pros and the cons to the mutilation of the foreskin and make a decision based off of that. The child's best analysis would be "Do I like sharp objects poking me or not" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted August 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Right, since Umbra's argument is flawless, I'm going to have to resort to this as the answer to everyone still arguing with him. [color=#ff0000][b]U BUTTHURT, CUTFAGS?[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 [quote name='Akira' timestamp='1312741554' post='5422405'] Right, since Umbra's argument is flawless, I'm going to have to resort to this as the answer to everyone still arguing with him. [color=#ff0000][b]U BUTTHURT, CUTFAGS?[/b][/color] [/quote] [img]http://gifsforum.com/images/image/not%20even%20mad/grand/im_not_even_mad_obama.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 "Get the brains to know what HIV and AIDS is" would constitute a middle-school education and perhaps a talk with the parents. Yes, I expect everyone to eventually get there. An arm isn't necessary either, but that's suddenly [b]WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! [/b]but the foreskin is A-o-kay. Either way, it's the parents making a decision that the child may not necessarily agree with, if it had the option to do so. That, to me, sounds a lot like tyranny and oppression - not the kind of society I would want to raise a child in, or want my children to believe is acceptable. @Miror: Why have the circumcision at the young age, then? I don't expect children to have that many sexual encounters with HIV-patients before they're old enough to make that kind of decision for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Having one arm can make doing things as simple as tying your shoe more difficult. What does having no foreskin hurt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Revan of the Sith Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 [quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1312741754' post='5422426'] "Get the brains to know what HIV and AIDS is" would constitute a middle-school education and perhaps a talk with the parents. Yes, I expect everyone to eventually get there. An arm isn't necessary either, but that's suddenly [b]WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! [/b]but the foreskin is A-o-kay. Either way, it's the parents making a decision that the child may not necessarily agree with, if it had the option to do so. That, to me, sounds a lot like tyranny and oppression - not the kind of society I would want to raise a child in, or want my children to believe is acceptable. @Miror: Why have the circumcision at the young age, then? I don't expect children to have that many sexual encounters with HIV-patients before they're old enough to make that kind of decision for themselves. [/quote] Its not tyranny and oppression you are turning something so meaningless and trivial into the biggest thing since the nazi oppression... All they are doing is cutting off some foreskin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 If you had lived with one arm since infancy, you would either have been able to figure out a way to tie a shoe with one hand, or simply worn shoes without ties. Self-esteem? Knowing that your parents authorized a mutilation of your body without your consent? EDIT: Hatsune, if you think serial mutilation of children, authorized, is "trivial", then I'd never want you to be in any place where you were allowed to make a decision. I'm seriously concerned that it might worsen the state of mankind. Going back to the comparison, all they're doing is cut off an arm, right? Means the kid won't ever break it, or sprain any bones in it, or get any bad bruises. Tons of advantages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 I never really cared that mine did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Revan of the Sith Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 [quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1312742115' post='5422452'] If you had lived with one arm since infancy, you would either have been able to figure out a way to tie a shoe with one hand, or simply worn shoes without ties. Self-esteem? Knowing that your parents authorized a mutilation of your body without your consent? [/quote] It is so meaningless... It hurts no one just because you lost some stupid foreskin its barely even that important and I dont understand why you are turning into like stabbing and disecting a baby... You do not understand how meaningless and unimprotant that little stupid piece of foreskin really is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 [quote name='Miror B.' timestamp='1312742148' post='5422454'] I never really cared that mine did that. [/quote] This just in: Every child everywhere agrees with Miror B. in everything. Either that, or your argument is highly irrelevant. Hatsune The foreskin itself may not be important; it's what the process stands for that I'm against. I haven't said that the foreskin itself is important; I'm saying that the parents shouldn't be allowed to cut off a part of their child's body because some social standard or code of acceptance demands it. You're also missing the point of the comparison entirely. A body part is a body part, doesn't matter which one. Parents shouldn't be allowed to make this kind of decision for their child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Revan of the Sith Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Arms are productive and help the body do certain things... Foreskin does absolutely nothing productive... If circumcising someone can reduce the chances of contracting HIV then in my view the Health factors outweigh stupid meaningless morals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 [quote name='Anthony Hatsune' timestamp='1312742540' post='5422478'] Arms are productive and help the body do certain things... Foreskin does absolutely nothing productive... [/quote] Again, you are missing the point. Let's say a pinky toe, instead of an arm. Is that okay? [quote name='Anthony Hatsune' timestamp='1312742540' post='5422478'] If circumcising someone can reduce the chances of contracting HIV then in my view the Health factors outweigh stupid meaningless morals... [/quote] Again, you are missing the point. When the child is old enough to make decisions for itself - yes, sex is a decision - they're free to get circumcised. Forcing it on them because their parents think it's good for them? That's going beyond the scope of what a person should be able to do. I quote "stupid meaningless morals", referring in this section to [b]the freedom of the individual[/b]. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe this argument is over. If you've been following us, feel free to go home now. There will be nothing of interest going on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Revan of the Sith Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 [quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1312743141' post='5422510'] Again, you are missing the point. Let's say a pinky toe, instead of an arm. Is that okay? Again, you are missing the point. When the child is old enough to make decisions for itself - yes, sex is a decision - they're free to get circumcised. Forcing it on them because their parents think it's good for them? That's going beyond the scope of what a person should be able to do. I quote "stupid meaningless morals", referring in this section to [b]the freedom of the individual[/b]. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe this argument is over. If you've been following us, feel free to go home now. There will be nothing of interest going on here. [/quote] Maybey you are right, I will cease this and look more into it but I do think when I have a kid I will get him circumcised.... That however may change in the near future... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Now that the argument's done with, let's end on a little note of relevant fun. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KXmcNfEFMI"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6KXmcNfEFMI[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 So... much... butthurt in this topic... I really don't give a flying s*** about it. Some of the arguments against it in the last few topics sound like a damn Pro-Lifer rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 [quote name='ADHD-Guitar' timestamp='1312760885' post='5423435'] I really don't give a flying s*** about it. Some of the arguments against it in the last few topics sound like a damn Pro-Lifer rant. [/quote] Yes, because Pro-Life is all about the freedom of the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twig Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 [quote name='Dт. Михаи́л Ботви́нник PчD' timestamp='1312672834' post='5420225']The trouble is we cannot make accurate comparisons unless a man experiences sex as an adult before circumcision and then experiences it again following circumcision (partly due to the rare occurrence of such a man experiencing that scenario, but mainly due to the varying quality and unpredictability of sexual experiences). [/quote] This guy: [url="http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9b24d/i_was_recently_circumcised_i_am_seventeen_and_i/"]http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9b24d/i_was_recently_circumcised_i_am_seventeen_and_i/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1312764899' post='5423631'] Yes, because Pro-Life is all about the freedom of the individual. [/quote] I laughed. Anyway, what does the foreskin actually do? Nothing. Twig's link (however, it may be a lie but no studies have shown that) show that it didn't help nor do anything except help with the condom. What does an arm do? Losing an arm can lose you scholarships, can limit your job selection, etc. Losing a pinky affects your balance ever so slightly and loses a bones. Why do you compare something so worthless as something that can affect you more drasticly. If it makes your nono-zone more "clean", than that's a benefit, isn't it? Or are you just saying that parents don't know better and should let their children decide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted August 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='Vough' timestamp='1312872525' post='5427062'] Anyway, what does the foreskin actually do? [/quote] Increases sexual sensitivity, provides natural lubrication, protection. People without one may feel hurt and resentful towards their parents, which could in turn seriously damage their sexual confidence in the long run and cause issues with future relationships. Not saying this happens to everyone, but it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 Why are haircuts not "non-consensual child mutilation" when the children don't consent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='SubZeroSakura❧' timestamp='1312692997' post='5421286'] circumcision its a way to lessen the likelihood of testicular cancer and aids and for some religions like judaism is nececary to be considerd a man its in no way considerd mutilation [/quote] Mutilation is the removal of a part of the body. Circumcision is the removal of a part of the body. Ergo, circumcision is mutilation. Mutilation is merely a more emotionally aggressive form of the word "amputation". To Clariex's point - as someone who has an uncircumcised organ I can inform you that cleaning it is the same as cleaning a circumcised one - lather with soap and rinse, the same as the rest of the body. It is true that if not cleaned regularly it is more likely to develop infections (and bad smells), but my Jewish friend told me that his washing habits are the same as anyone else's. Circumcision dulls sexual sensations - a child that is innocent to the feelings of sex is never fit to make a decision like that, and his parents should not either. Routine circumcision in Western countries damages sex lives and causes 229 deaths per year in the US alone, and probably thousands in the Third World where medical treatment is more dangerous. Metzitzah - the technique whereby the rabbi sucks the penis to remove the blood and loosen the skin - causes several herpes cases in babies a year, and is in itself a despicable act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='Dт. Михаи́л Ботви́нник PчD' timestamp='1312926283' post='5428500'] but my Jewish friend told me that his washing habits are the same as anyone else's. [/quote] You asked? Or did he just approach and tell you? Either way, seems pretty damn awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 So is Twig's link discredited completely? It said he felt no difference whatsoever when doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twig Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote name='Vough' timestamp='1312929561' post='5428709'] So is Twig's link discredited completely? It said he felt no difference whatsoever when doing it. [/quote] The guy in the link is still against baby circumcision. He said it might have felt the same because he let the nerves develop or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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