evilfusion Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 I don't believe in a perfect game anymore than I believe there is a perfect deck. To acheive a perfect game, both players must be equally skilled, equally lucky, and have equally powerful decks, and the sheer intelligence they would need to accomplish this is beyond what can logically be found playing a trading card game. No game of this complexity will ever reach this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 A perfect game is not possible because Konami doesn't let us run Makyura the destructor or 39 Counter Counters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob the Rainicorn Posted October 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='Legend%2520Zero' timestamp='1318721028' post='5581778'] I think it's common knowledge that playing smart and making your opponent misplay will only increase your chances of winning. This is your your thesis, correct? As for the fun aspect...fun is different depending on the person so I won't really go there. [/quote] That would indeed be my thesis, and my thesis should be common sense, but I'm using logic to give support to common sense, so that the truth can be verified. As for fun, we all experience fun, and usually there is a connection with our experience in fun, since a lot of people seem to find games fun. There has to be a definition of fun that we might be able to apply to certain conditions to find if it is fun.For the most part, I find yugioh players experience pleasure of fun when they are experiencing the illogical. [quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1318721709' post='5581820'] I don't believe in a perfect game anymore than I believe there is a perfect deck. To acheive a perfect game, both players must be equally skilled, equally lucky, and have equally powerful decks, and the sheer intelligence they would need to accomplish this is beyond what can logically be found playing a trading card game. No game of this complexity will ever reach this. [/quote] Of course not, but of course, right triangles don't exist either in the physical world, yet we still teach geometry in schools.It just seems to me that the closer architectural structures are to a mathematical structure they are designed for, they tend to function better.similarly is the idea of perfect game, it doesn't exist in the physical world, we can only think of it, but the closer we are to it, the better the skill level.Oh, I feel entitled to ask 2 things: 1) can someone provide me an image with a Black Wonder Magician2) Does everyone understand what the world of the forms is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='Bob the Rainicorn' timestamp='1318721795' post='5581822'] That would indeed be my thesis, and my thesis should be common sense, but I'm using logic to give support to common sense, so that the truth can be verified. As for fun, we all experience fun, and usually there is a connection with our experience in fun, since a lot of people seem to find games fun. There has to be a definition of fun that we might be able to apply to certain conditions to find if it is fun.For the most part, I find yugioh players experience pleasure of fun when they are experiencing the illogical. [/quote] The way I look at it there are a lot of different reasons people find this game fun. Some may do it for the interaction, I do it for the strategy aspect, some may like art and monsters fighting thing, others for collecting. I don't believe people do things, like have fun, for the same reason but I guess that's something that has yet to be proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solemn Silver Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Black Wonder Magician..? And no. Feel free to elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob the Rainicorn Posted October 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='Legend%20Zero' timestamp='1318722131' post='5581838'] The way I look at it there are a lot of different reasons people find this game fun. Some may do it for the interaction, I do it for the strategy aspect, some may like art and monsters fighting thing, others for collecting. I don't believe people do things, like have fun, for the same reason but I guess that's something that has yet to be proven. [/quote] Well, it would be a similar pursuit as to the question of what is justice.@ Ctrl+Alt+Win: Look it up.oh and like, a T.G. Wonder Magician that has a black garment. I need an image for reference when I color mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='Bob the Rainicorn' timestamp='1318722259' post='5581846'] Well, it would be a similar pursuit as to the question of what is justice. [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solemn Silver Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 So basiclly the world of forms is your mind/Process of theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob the Rainicorn Posted October 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 not quite, its more like the real world, and we in this world are only poor imitations of the World of the Forms. Though it is like the mind, Thoughts are usually not created within our mind, but our discovered, because thoughts are eternal, they have always existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solemn Silver Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Well, it makes a certain sense, but then again, how exactly is this theory proven? How do you know that mabye this poor "Dimention" of non-existence, is just another fake representation of the real world? And if there is a real world, and our universe mimics that universe, then what? MY BRAIN HURTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob the Rainicorn Posted October 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Then we attempt to imitate that world as closely as possible, and avoid imitating other imitations. As for how we know that world is truth, is because thoughts are eternal, just like truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cakey Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 You're confusing good YGOz with insane pseudo-Greek pseudologic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solemn Silver Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 [quote name='Dr. Cakey-chan' timestamp='1318724504' post='5581963'] You're confusing good YGOz with insane pseudo-Greek pseudologic. [/quote] This... F*** it.. Its not worth understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joex486 Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 If I understand this correctly... The "Good Player" is one who plays a game perfectly, which would obviously be impossible for anyone who is not omniscient. A player becomes better by imitating this "Good Player". However, because normal people are not omniscient, the "Good Player" cannot be imitated perfectly.... EXCEPT in a situation where a player plays irrationally and makes perfect plays by luck. Compare this person to another person who always plays "correctly"(As in, they make the best plays that can be logically determined from their knowledge of their cards, their deck, their opponent's probable cards, etc.): The irrational player, while a better imitation of the "Good Player", should nonetheless be considered a worse player, because their strategy is based on luck. To summarize the preceding statements, the best players are normally the ones who make logical decisions, because it is impossible to know exactly what the perfect play, which would be made by the "Good Player", is when cards are hidden from you. There is an upper limit to how "Good" any player can become. However, if a person is known to play perfectly logically, than they can be overcome by players who do the unexpected. Therefore, playing perfectly logically can be dangerous, and a better player may do something different from what they logically should in order for them not to be caught by the others. Unfortunately, playing strangely in order to combat the more illogical players can lead to misplays and similar incidents by both players. To conclude this, then, the better player is not necessarily one who makes the more logical plays, although that is important, but rather the player who, by his or her seemingly strange plays can intimidate the opponent into playing illogically. Thus, as in a thumb war, both players plan to trick their opponent into making a bad move by showing some kind of weakness, while avoiding making mistakes themselves that will give their opponent the victory. Of course, some times luck just destroys you in terms of the cards you draw or the deck you face, but that is completely outside of anyone's control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 @above [IMG]http://i52.tinypic.com/2ugo1sn.gif[/IMG] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joex486 Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Perhaps I can make my previous post easier to understand.[list=1] [*]There is a limit to how well any player can consistently play. This limit is imposed by the player's necessary lack of knowledge about what order the cards in his or her deck are and what cards the opponent has. [*]To play at this limit, one would have to be completely logical, and act purely on the probabilities of what may happen. This includes the probabilities that an opponent is using certain cards in their deck. [*]However, someone who does this is predictable and thus can be easily beaten. [*]Again, however, one who tailors his or her strategy to defeat a predictable person themselves becomes predictable. [*]Therefore, both players will end up making moves that are not the best possible, not only because they do not know everything about everyone's cards, but because they do not want their opponent to be able to respond easily to their actions. [*]The better player, then, is the one who is able to use his or her plays to better fool the opponent into responding incorrectly. [*]Of course, the "better" player may still lose often due to the chances of facing a deck that he or she cannot combat properly or simply due to getting a bad hand. [*]Ultimately, while intimidation may help a person win, that person also faces the risk that an opponent will not be intimidated, and then the opponent will capitalize to his or her advantage on the other person's tactics. [/list] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiithepeople Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Of COURSE nobody's perfect. Just look at the bronies! They're as far from perfect than any other group I know. I mean, they made Cupcakes.docx, the greatest reason to NOT be a brony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 [quote name='ケニヨン • ボリンガー' timestamp='1318739906' post='5582647'] Of COURSE nobody's perfect. Just look at the bronies! They're as far from perfect than any other group I know. I mean, they made Cupcakes.docx, the greatest reason to NOT be a brony. [/quote] Don't bring this sh*t into here please. I for one hated cupcakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiithepeople Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 [quote name='Twilight Sparkle' timestamp='1318743065' post='5582757'] Don't bring this sh*t into here please. I for one hated cupcakes. [/quote] “Didn’t anybody teach you any manners? It’s very rude to fall asleep when somebody invites you over to spend time with them. How would you like it if I came over to your house and went to sleep? ‘Oh I’m sorry Twilight, you’re so boring I think I’ll take a nap.’ You think I like always doing this by myself? I told you how excited I got when I found you were next. I was excited to have a friend be here with me while I worked. But NOOOOO! You’ve got to be inconsiderate. You know, I thought you were tough. I thought you could handle anything." I’ve had foals cope with this story better than you! Do I have to baby you now? Huh? Is that how you want me to remember you, as a baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 [quote name='ケニヨン • ボリンガー' timestamp='1318746301' post='5582820'] I’ve had foals cope with this story better than you! Do I have to baby you now? Huh? Is that how you want me to remember you, as a baby? [/quote] Fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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