Final Countdown

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You all know what it does.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/TYraK.jpg[/img]

Instances such as this, where one player has complete domination over the game, but loses due to Final Countdown's effect shouldn't occur, it's a terrible card and deserves to be banned.

[Mysty]

It's also inconsistent as all hell and doesn't top any tournaments or affect the meta in any way whatsoever. Knowing this, people using such a deck are less skilled than people using more consistent decks, and the more consistent decks will win in the long run. So no, it won't really have a reason to be banned unless it starts topping tournaments. That's at least how Konami operates and it seems how many people on YCM view the banlist.

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I personally believe that just because it doesn't top it doesn't exempt it from the banlist. It's horrendous card design.

[Raine]

You're telling me you can't win aginast a Final Countdowning player in 10 turns?

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[quote name='Яaine™' timestamp='1331302988' post='5862937']
You're telling me you can't win aginast a Final Countdowning player in 10 turns?
[/quote]

What? You think I can control if my opponent happens to get 10 cards that prevent me from winning?

I even managed to get two backrow nukes on him and I couldn't do anything. =/

[Blake]

[quote name='Яaine™' timestamp='1331302988' post='5862937']
You're telling me you can't win aginast a Final Countdowning player in 10 turns?
[/quote]
Zero Gardna
Waboku
Threatening Roar
Metaion the Time Lord
Swift Scarecrow
Battle Fader
One Day of Peace
Draw Power
Every Final Countdown player magically topdecks it by their second turn

You do the math.

[DARKPLANT RISING]

A lot of people say "If you can't win against it in under 10 turns you're doing it wrong".

It's the opposite. If a Final Countdown deck loses in under 10 turns, he's doing it wrong. Of course, unless he's fighting Burn or Herald or something.

The deck is fun to play, but the most terrible opponent.

[Kazooie]

i hate that my duel spirit is being abused by this terrible deck ;~;

But yeah, this is like, the absolute BEST example of a deck that doesn't deserve to exist. It takes no skill to run, just luck and lots of it. Final Countdown really needs to be banned.

[Mysty]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1331303632' post='5862941']
[b]Every Final Countdown player magically topdecks it by their second turn[/b]
[/quote]

See, even you're admitting that it's stupid lucksacky.

This discussion is coming down to how there are multiple views of banlist creation, of which I'll name two: make small adjustments to the current list and keep inconsistent decks together because they're inconsistent; or start the whole banlist anew and throw every badly designed card out the window because we don't want tournament players losing to a lucksack n00b in a tournament. These two groups can be compared to people who run SSB melee tournaments where every character is usable (although some clearly suck) and a good number of stages allowed, and SSB melee tournaments with each player playing Fox on Final Destination.

I lean more towards the first option: if a player wants to run a second-rate deck that wins on occasion but overall doesn't stand well in tournaments as opposed to a very consistent deck that wins tournaments, I'm all for that player running the second-rate deck. No harm is being done by it, so why hurt it? It allows many more fun playstyles for those that follow Advanced Format list yet still play to have fun.

In all honest, you're probably never going to see Konami suddenly revamping its list with 20 million changes to it nor will anyone see a separate-organization-made banlist actually rise up and be used in tournaments everywhere. As much as we don't like it, Konami's style of meta is here to stay, so we could have hypothetical small chaange predictions, but you'll probably never see a change that slows the game so much that Final Countdown becomes a viable meta option.

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>Ban Countdown
>Ban Exodia
>Ban either Morphing Jar or Card Destruction
>Ban something that makes Chain Burn function

Only 4 list changes and we lose the problem decks that destroy player-player interaction, which stops the game being enjoyable for both sides.

[CDDRodrigo]

What makes Chain Burn function? Isn't it like, ALL cards on the deck? Because I can't see a stand-out card.

[Kazooie]

[quote name='Mysty' timestamp='1331313069' post='5863051']
I lean more towards the first option: if a player wants to run a second-rate deck that wins on occasion but overall doesn't stand well in tournaments as opposed to a very consistent deck that wins tournaments, I'm all for that player running the second-rate deck. No harm is being done by it, so why hurt it? It allows many more fun playstyles for those that follow Advanced Format list yet still play to have fun.
[/quote]

Thing is, harm IS done by it. It destroys all semblance of Player interaction and ruins the fun. Sure, it isn't a thrill to play against Inzektors or Rabbit, but it's infinitely more fun then playing against a deck who's only goal is to stall and stall and stall.

It ruins the fun for the opponent, destroys player interaction, and just make the game boring as hell.

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[quote name='Mu-12' timestamp='1331313832' post='5863069']
What makes Chain Burn function? Isn't it like, ALL cards on the deck? Because I can't see a stand-out card.
[/quote]

Obviously you ban all effects that burn!

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

[quote name='evilchris' timestamp='1331313931' post='5863076']
Obviously you ban all effects that burn!
[/quote]
NO NOT MY SPARKS!!!

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[quote name='Ieyasu Tokugawa' timestamp='1331313987' post='5863078']
NO NOT MY SPARKS!!!
[/quote]

ESPECIALLY SPARKS

[Kazooie]

BAN ALL THE SPARKS!

[Blake]

[quote name='Mysty' timestamp='1331313069' post='5863051']
See, even you're admitting that it's stupid lucksacky.

This discussion is coming down to how there are multiple views of banlist creation, of which I'll name two: make small adjustments to the current list and keep inconsistent decks together because they're inconsistent; or start the whole banlist anew and throw every badly designed card out the window because we don't want tournament players losing to a lucksack n00b in a tournament. These two groups can be compared to people who run SSB melee tournaments where every character is usable (although some clearly suck) and a good number of stages allowed, and SSB melee tournaments with each player playing Fox on Final Destination.

I lean more towards the first option: if a player wants to run a second-rate deck that wins on occasion but overall doesn't stand well in tournaments as opposed to a very consistent deck that wins tournaments, I'm all for that player running the second-rate deck. No harm is being done by it, so why hurt it? It allows many more fun playstyles for those that follow Advanced Format list yet still play to have fun.

In all honest, you're probably never going to see Konami suddenly revamping its list with 20 million changes to it nor will anyone see a separate-organization-made banlist actually rise up and be used in tournaments everywhere. As much as we don't like it, Konami's style of meta is here to stay, so we could have hypothetical small chaange predictions, but you'll probably never see a change that slows the game so much that Final Countdown becomes a viable meta option.
[/quote]
I love how everyone in this section seems to have forgotten HOW TO DAMN READ.

I was replying to someone who said you should win to it in ten turns, not to the comments about it being banned, if you took 5 seconds to learn the context. He said you should be able to beat it in ten turns, when, realistically, you lose once it's activated sans
burn and Empty Jar.

And you can't compare all cards that are bad design to each other, nor this to bawwing. I don't play anything but the Undermeta, but I keep an eye on the meta so I know what's going on. I'll occasionally play against a meta deck, but that's it.

You should ban things that do 0 good for the game, like alternate win conditions. Why? Luck based gaming that will, eventually, become top tier, it just takes time, and One Day of Peace was a HUGE push.

There's no reason to keep Exodia, or the burn mechanic outside things like Flame Wingman, or Countdown and such alive. They promote solitaire, as opposed to Yugioh.

It's the same for cards like Brio and Future Fusion. They aren't banworthy, per se, atm, but in due time they will finally have a loop that is beyond a DOUBt going to make them slaughter everything- We just aren't there yet.

This isn't like some static fighting game where the roster never changes, this is CONSTANTLY adapting.

And, at that, why punish free thought where people figure out what's good and bad for the game like this? By being a stick in the mud, you're encouraging them to be idiots.

[Mysty]

[quote name='Mu-12' timestamp='1331313832' post='5863069']
What makes Chain Burn function? Isn't it like, ALL cards on the deck? Because I can't see a stand-out card.
[/quote]

Chain Strike *duh*

Chain strike limited IIRC was the format that nobody played Chain Strike.

[quote name='evilchris' timestamp='1331313289' post='5863059']
>Ban Countdown
>Ban Exodia
>Ban either Morphing Jar or Card Destruction
>Ban something that makes Chain Burn function

Only 4 list changes and we lose the problem decks that destroy player-player interaction, which stops the game being enjoyable for both sides.
[/quote]

I agree with Morphing Jar because that card really is legit. Otherwise it's just inconsistent combo-ing, which doesn't win anything. You should have either Wind-Up Hunter and/or Zenmaity on that list as well.

[quote name='Kanade Otonashi' timestamp='1331313930' post='5863075']
Thing is, harm IS done by it. It destroys all semblance of Player interaction and ruins the fun. Sure, it isn't a thrill to play against Inzektors or Rabbit, but it's infinitely more fun then playing against a deck who's only goal is to stall and stall and stall.

It ruins the fun for the opponent, destroys player interaction, and just make the game boring as hell.
[/quote]

If it's really become such a problem around the local play area that the deck is so unfun, just don't play against that person. Unless it's a tournament, nothing says you have to play against such a deck. Those decks don't show up at tournaments or win them too often, so the competitive scene is untouched.

I find it a lot more fun to play against Exodia, Final Countdown, and such. I'm encouraged to find a chink in the armor and abuse it to win. Against a meta deck, I'm pretty much only able to sit back and watch myself get pummeled.

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[quote name='Mysty' timestamp='1331314714' post='5863093']
Chain Strike *duh*

Chain strike limited IIRC was the format that nobody played Chain Strike.[/quote]

This seems about accurate.



[quote]I agree with Morphing Jar because that card really is legit. Otherwise it's just inconsistent combo-ing, which doesn't win anything. You should have either Wind-Up Hunter and/or Zenmaity on that list as well.[/quote]

Black was correct when you don't pay attention to context. My list was of those decks that don't top but severely need to be hit.


[quote]
If it's really become such a problem around the local play area that the deck is so unfun, just don't play against that person. Unless it's a tournament, nothing says you have to play against such a deck. Those decks don't show up at tournaments or win them too often, so the competitive scene is untouched.

I find it a lot more fun to play against Exodia, Final Countdown, and such. I'm encouraged to find a chink in the armor and abuse it to win. Against a meta deck, I'm pretty much only able to sit back and watch myself get pummeled.
[/quote]

Why should a deck that is so abysmal to play against be allowed to be used, then, when the idea of the game regardless of how you look at it is to have fun? Y'know, cos it's kinda a GAME.

[Mysty]

[quote name='evilchris' timestamp='1331314909' post='5863099']
Black was correct when you don't pay attention to context. My list was of those decks that don't top but severely need to be hit.

Why should a deck that is so abysmal to play against be allowed to be used, then, when the idea of the game regardless of how you look at it is to have fun? Y'know, cos it's kinda a GAME.
[/quote]

I'm talking more realistically than the context involved. Konami doesn't care about decks that don't top because they don't top. It doesn't do any good to say it needs to be banned when Konami isn't going to ban it. The only reason they would hurt a bad deck is if they seriously re-thought how they do banlists and decided on making a list that reflects great change. However, such a change is highly unlikely.

As far as Konami thinks, this game is a marketing scheme. Not to mention what people find fun to play against is relative. Some people find meta decks fun to play against and some not; some people find Exodia, chain Burn, Final Countdown, etc., fun to play against, others not. It's a relative term and in the end, Konami doesn't care about the casual scene, only the competitive scene, because that's where they make their money.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

ITT: You get to choose what decks you play in local tourneys.

I haven't had issues but even I know that something so idiotic as stalling win conditions promotes unhealthy game play. As does things such as hand loops (AKA Trish and Wind-Ups). Yes they are legitimate decks, but they're boring to face, and even I find them boring to play after about 3 times. Doing nothing but putting cards on the board isn't exactly a 2 player game.

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[quote name='Mysty' timestamp='1331315382' post='5863106']
I'm talking more realistically than the context involved. Konami doesn't care about decks that don't top because they don't top. It doesn't do any good to say it needs to be banned when Konami isn't going to ban it. The only reason they would hurt a bad deck is if they seriously re-thought how they do banlists and decided on making a list that reflects great change. However, such a change is highly unlikely.

As far as Konami thinks, this game is a marketing scheme. Not to mention what people find fun to play against is relative. Some people find meta decks fun to play against and some not; some people find Exodia, chain Burn, Final Countdown, etc., fun to play against, others not. It's a relative term and in the end, Konami doesn't care about the casual scene, only the competitive scene, because that's where they make their money.
[/quote]

We're talking hypothetically. Most, if not all, of us know Konami won't do it, but they should. You're arguing about the idea that they [i]could[/i] be hit, the rest of us are arguing that they [i]should[/i] be hit.

Oh, and if you didn't realise, Yugioh has a large casual market too, hence the miscellaneous merchandise that Konami sells. If they can appeal to both competitive and casual markets, they succeed in turning in more profit, which they usually do very successfully.

[Mysty]

[quote name='Ieyasu Tokugawa' timestamp='1331315545' post='5863107']
ITT: You get to choose what decks you play in local tourneys.

I haven't had issues but even I know that something so idiotic as stalling win conditions promotes unhealthy game play. As does things such as hand loops (AKA Trish and Wind-Ups). Yes they are legitimate decks, but they're boring to face, and even I find them boring to play after about 3 times. Doing nothing but putting cards on the board isn't exactly a 2 player game.
[/quote]

That's talking out of context. Wind-ups are actually good decks without their combo and Trish was a powerful Synchro without summoning loops. You're talking about combos that are both awesome and practical; we're talking about victory conditions that are awesome but impractical.

[quote name='evilchris' timestamp='1331315567' post='5863108']
We're talking hypothetically. Most, if not all, of us know Konami won't do it, but they should. You're arguing about the idea that they [i]could[/i] be hit, the rest of us are arguing that they [i]should[/i] be hit.

Oh, and if you didn't realise, Yugioh has a large casual market too, hence the miscellaneous merchandise that Konami sells. If they can appeal to both competitive and casual markets, they succeed in turning in more profit, which they usually do very successfully.
[/quote]

And see, there's a big problem here; we know Konami is never going to do this. even so, there are two different kinds of banlist creation: banlists that hit the topdecks to make them weaker in the interest of tournaments, and those that take out everything that's bad for the game for the interest of removing everything bad for the game.

Even considering in a hypothetical ground, I much prefer keeping the banlist open so people can play whatever they want. I have to admit, it's a lot of fun playing one of those decks and trying to optimize it to be more consistent even though it still only goes off very rarely. One of my friends plays Chain Burn and I find it's really fun to play against him, yet one of my other friends plays Karakuris and I absolutely hate playing against him. However, if a person were to use an inconsistent combo-out deck in tournaments and wanted to become competitive, they would get their face hammered in time after time after time until they finally decided to be a better player and use a better deck. The game naturally selects the unskilled from the skilled by what decks they want to use in tournaments and the banlist is there to regulate the strongest decks. This is my philosophy and you're free to disagree; I just prefer keeping options open and allowing people to run what they want. I rarely see Final Countdown, Chain burn, exodia, etc., in my play areas, but I find them a lot more fun to play against than Karakuris, Dark Worlds, Dino rabbit, etc.

[Expelsword]

I have to agree with many people in this topic.
Decks like Chain Burn, Exodia, Final Countdown, and Empty Jar (and only to a lesser extent Wind-Ups and Inzektors) reduce the game to worse-than-Vanguard level luck contests. The decks take absolutely no skill and I would love to see all of them banned.