Solemn Warning, Thunder King Raioh are pain, well no more with this card

[DestinyGame]

[img]http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6545/infinitytunnel.jpg[/img]
Pay 1000 Life Points. While this card is face-up on the field, the Summon of monsters or the effects of Spells, Traps and Effect Monsters that includes Special Summon monsters cannot be negated.

[Dennis Bekker]

i like it. the effect is good, but the cost a little bit high? because you can only play like 1, when your deck also mains solemn warning. and when your opponent mst it you pay 2000 for nothing. i would say 1500 is better.
but you can search this card with infernity archfiend, which makes them broken again, because you cant stop their explode anymore. even not with veiler or thunderking.
anyways a very good card.

[Miror B]

[quote name='Dennis Bekker' timestamp='1332761888' post='5889167']
but you can search this card with infernity archfiend, which makes them broken again, because you cant stop their explode anymore. even not with veiler or thunderking.
[/quote]
No, Archfiend searches "Infernity" cards, not "Infinity" cards.

Anyway card is blegh. I'd rather not run a card solely to stop my opponent from stopping my pushes when I can just make a bigger push. I mean, it would be perfectly fine if T-King was a staple still, but as it is he's not at that status yet.

My idea is to have it give Obelisk clause. "Your monsters' summons cannot be negated. Spells and Traps cannot be activated in response to the summon of your monsters." That gives it a wider variety of targets. But then that would probably break it, so maybe make the second part of that affect your opponent as well, so your monsters cannot have their summons negated but you can't activate Torrential or Bottomless at any time. Gives your opponent a little more room to counter your explosion. That or just make the whole thing apply to both players.

[This Account is Unplayable]

I agree with Meta's original proposition actually.

[quote name='Tsukasa Hiiragi' timestamp='1332762434' post='5889172']
My idea is to have it give Obelisk clause. "Your monsters' summons cannot be negated. Spells and Traps cannot be activated in response to the summon of your monsters."
[/quote]

It still likely wouldn't see use, but as a side tech game 2 and 3 it would be interesting.

Remember this is a 3 MST + 1 Heavy Storm format, so a continuous spell like this is very vulnerable, and factoring in the fact that it can clog easily if run in multiples it seems like a very fair card design. Overall the idea with the altered effect becomes a very balanced card, unlike the card in the OP which is currently UPd without enough reason to run it since Bottomless and Torrential are both cards to watch out for, especially game 2 and 3.

[thekazu4u]

This card counters one of the few well designed playable cards in the format. (Rai-Oh).
Anything that says "... X cannot be negated/responded to..." reduces player/player interaction.

But aside from those problems with the idea of the card itself, I must say you did it fairly well. At least you required a fair cost (1000 LP) and is fairly low-powered, because the last thing we need is Maitys, rabbits, and zectors coming out that can't be negated. I guess fair card is fair.

...although I would not think so if the Rabbits had won that last YCS match.

[.Leo]

Price should be higher for this effect.

You shut off pretty much most of a players deck with this. Shuts down both Solemns, Rai-oh, most archetype cards, dad, lumina, jd, wulf, etc... The list is endless. Though this can be counter argued with the fact that one for one is pretty much the norm, which is true, but this is like Royal Oppression on crack, and Royal Oppression was banned for a reason.

[shelds9]

I think it would be good, but in this format, with the new Banlist, it just wouldn't last long...

Nice idea though!

[quote name='Monsieur Léo' timestamp='1332806218' post='5889967']
Price should be higher for this effect.

You shut off pretty much most of a players deck with this. Shuts down both Solemns, Rai-oh, most archetype cards, dad, lumina, jd, wulf, etc... The list is endless. Though this can be counter argued with the fact that one for one is pretty much the norm, which is true, but this is like Royal Oppression on crack, and Royal Oppression was banned for a reason.
[/quote]

No offense, but I think you should read the card a little better... DAD, JD, Wulf etc. are not killed by this card. It does not stop SS's, but it prevents cards like Oppression from being used.

[.Leo]

I can kinda see what your are saying, but the grammar and structure of this text on the effect is so bad that I cannot really understand what it can/can't stop.

[thekazu4u]

Its not really that bad, the wording I mean. Maybe it should read like the opposite of Solemn Warning:
[left]"Pay 1000 Life Points. While this card remains face-up on the field, When a monster would be Summoned, OR when a Spell Card,Trap Card or Effect Monster's effect is activated that includes an effect that Special Summons a monster(s): That Summon OR activation cannot be negated."[/left]
[left]On second thought, that is probably worse wording ... :S[/left]

[left]But you get what I am saying. Anyway, still think the actual idea behind the card is a bad one, though, considering how Thunder King essentially saves the world from the terror of rabbits and maity's.[/left]

[DestinyGame]

[quote name='Monsieur Léo' timestamp='1332809902' post='5890061']
I can kinda see what your are saying, but the grammar and structure of this text on the effect is so bad that I cannot really understand what it can/can't stop.
[/quote]
I dont know what is uncleared to you. And if you think my grammar is bad, how about fixing it and show to me?

[JesterJame]

I kind of like this effect. It's current wording as I see it is that it prevents both players from stopping summons, yet makes Bottomless Trap Hole still very usable, and with more Torrential permitted, makes them still usable as well. With priority still around, this card would be a big help to cards that need just those few precious seconds on the field in order to work.

It does not get around Fossil Dyna, a favorite of mine, another plus that makes stall decks not devastated by this effect. It might even hurt the Rabbit Decks that try to use it, since they cannot use Laggia on any summons.

[Miror B]

The card grammar is fine. Also Kazu the way you worded it makes it a trigger effect rather than continuous solely because of the colon.

I don't quite like it though because it still leaves things open to kill cards. I like my original idea of no negating summons and no responding to the summon so that it stops Warning, Judgment, Torrential, Bottomless, etc. while still allowing me to negate Starlight Road. That's just me and the effect is pretty balanced anyway.

[thekazu4u]

[quote] [color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Also Kazu the way you worded it makes it a trigger effect rather than continuous solely because of the colon. [/quote][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Yes I know. [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][quote][/size][/font][/color][color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]I don't quite like it though because it still leaves things open to kill cards. [/quote][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]If it did not let people kill cards... then what could people do against it? :S[/size][/font][/color]

[Miror B]

[quote name='thekazu4u' timestamp='1332868533' post='5890960']
Yes I know.

If it did not let people kill cards... then what could people do against it? :S
[/quote]
MST?
Heavy Storm?
It's a spell/trap hate heavy format dude. Continuous spells have a big disadvantage nowadays. It's also why my version suggested it work partially for the opponent as well, so you limit yourself a bit as well :/

EDIT: Also this would make much more sense as a continuous effect. It's effect says nothing can respond to the summon, but it's responding to the summon, and stuff can respond to it. See?

[thekazu4u]

So let me get this right. You want to make a card that makes Special Summon monsters unnegatable AND undestroyable? In other words, I can go ahead and summon a BLS with this card, and essentially say "gg unless you have a MST -and- a way of destroying the bls."

Too many cards are already discourage interaction enough. You don't need to make a card essentially saying "until this card is destroyed, players do not have any way of getting rid of boss monsters."

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='thekazu4u' timestamp='1332874632' post='5891096']
So let me get this right. You want to make a card that makes Special Summon monsters unnegatable AND undestroyable? In other words, I can go ahead and summon a BLS with this card, and essentially say "gg unless you have a MST -and- a way of destroying the bls."

Too many cards are already discourage interaction enough. You don't need to make a card essentially saying "until this card is destroyed, players do not have any way of getting rid of boss monsters."
[/quote]

Yet you took up the space in the deck to add this, which also means it becomes a dead draw card very often. Running this card in a main deck would be no way beneficial, and it actually becomes a very good side card because against a lot of decks (especially if they're going first game 2) people will side in a lot of summon hate.

It's still a triple MST + Heavy format, continuous cards simply can't handle it.

You're also implying that a limited card breaks this... What?

[thekazu4u]

Not in this current form, in the form of "Special Summoned monsters cannot be negated and/or destroyed."

Bls is hardly the only card that only card that could abuse it. It makes ANOTHER soft-lock with White Ninja Dragon or whatever. It means that until it dies, NO xyz can be killed until it is killed. It would mean that Rescue Rabbits could put out their Laggia, good luck killing this spell then - oh and by the way you can't Bottomless/Torrential the dinos either. It basically takes all the sacky luck-based decks and makes them more powerful, (ok ninjas do need the boost but not in another lock) while reducing the power of the perfectly balanced and well designed Rai-Oh. The current version of the card is fine only because it is not powerful. Make it powerful, and it makes the format even more sacky than it already is.

[Miror B]

[quote name='thekazu4u' timestamp='1332884722' post='5891433']
Not in this current form, in the form of "Special Summoned monsters cannot be negated and/or destroyed."

Bls is hardly the only card that only card that could abuse it. It makes ANOTHER soft-lock with White Ninja Dragon or whatever. It means that until it dies, NO xyz can be killed until it is killed. It would mean that Rescue Rabbits could put out their Laggia, good luck killing this spell then - oh and by the way you can't Bottomless/Torrential the dinos either. It basically takes all the sacky luck-based decks and makes them more powerful, (ok ninjas do need the boost but not in another lock) while reducing the power of the perfectly balanced and well designed Rai-Oh. The current version of the card is fine only because it is not powerful. Make it powerful, and it makes the format even more sacky than it already is.
[/quote]
I can still Warning the Rabbit's effect with my version. As it is now I can't Warning anything, so Rabbit would still be a sacky play unless I have the other version of Warning down (bottomless). His version focuses more on the negation. Mine focuses more on responding to the actual summon.

[thekazu4u]

[quote] [color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]I can still Warning the Rabbit's effect with my version. As it is now I can't Warning anything, so Rabbit would still be a sacky play unless I have the other version of Warning down (bottomless). His version focuses more on the negation. Mine focuses more on responding to the actual summon. [/quote][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Wait, so could you please explain what your version would actually do?[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]What I thought you were saying was "[/size][/font][/color][color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Pay 1000 Life Points. While this card is face-up on the field, the Summon of monsters or the effects of Spells, Traps and Effect Monsters that includes Special Summon monsters cannot be negated and Special Summoned monsters cannot be destroyed by card effects." At least that is what it sounded like.[/size][/font][/color][color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=2]
"[/size][/font][/color]

[Miror B]

My version:

Pay 1000 Life Points. While this card is face-up, monsters you summon cannot have their Summon negated, and cards cannot be activated in response to the Summon of a monster you control.

So your opponent still has free reign over negating card effects, as well as it would technically be unplayable in decks like Gadgets because they respond to their own Summon.

[thekazu4u]

Ok. Its balanced. But even worse design than the first because it encourages even less player vs. player interaction.

[Miror B]

Not really. Both hamper pvp interaction on the same level. This makes Warning a completely worthless card while on the field while limiting Judgment's use, as well as stopping the opponent from using other random spells/traps like a Divine Wrath on Tour Guide or a Seven Tools on a Call of the Haunted.

My version makes Torrential and Bottomless obselete, while still letting Warning be used on stuff like Tour Guide, Reborn etc. and not hampering any of the perfectly balanced cards like Divine Wrath.

Note: Tools and Wrath are used as examples to get a point across. Not as meta standards.

[thekazu4u]

[quote] [color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Both hamper pvp interaction on the same level [/quote][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]In theory they do, but that is the same as saying that Wind-Ups and Exodia limit pvp interaction on the same level: Wind-Ups are obviously much more powerful, so it hurts the game a lot more than Exodia. Thus, this version does not harm the meta as much as what I thought you were proposing due to the fact that it is a lot less powerful. [/size][/font][/color]

[Miror B]

Except I'm not comparing Wind-Ups to Exodia. I'm comparing a negation prevention card to a negation prevention card. Both do the same thing with different ways and different benefits.

And stop talking about what you thought I was proposing, I know what you thought I said would be a downright stupid card design. Now that you know what I meant discuss that.

[thekazu4u]

[quote] [color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Except I'm not comparing Wind-Ups to Exodia. I'm comparing a negation prevention card to a negation prevention card. Both do the same thing with different ways and different benefits. [/quote][/size][/font][/color]
[font="tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#5a5a5a"][size=3]I was using it as an analogy. Just as Wind-Ups and Exodia limit pvp interaction, these do. All I am saying is that both your suggestion and the OP's card are closer to the exodia side in that they are not as OP'd AND limiting as a more powerful version would be. [/size][/color][/font]