Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaighty

[HSektor]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335709927' post='5928296']
That's the point.
[/quote]

I was just justifying because some people in this thread said that Hunter should be banned. But IMO the hand loop is broken because of it's consistence, there are a lots of "bad loops" in yugioh like Infinite Life Colossal or Quillbolt Cannon Loop and they aren't broken. You really need to put effort to pull out those said loops.

If we just make the combo inconsistent (1 carrier, 1 hunter and maybe 2-1 rat), less people will use it and they will start to play Wind Up deck as a lolXYZSpam.dek not rape.dek

EDIT: I hate my grammar.


[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1335710393' post='5928303']
But why should card design be restricted by a card that would only ever be used in loops anyway? Losing Hunter is the best thing to do.[/quote]

Inconsistent loop = less people using it.
1 carrier, 1 hunter and maybe 2-1 rat = Inconsistent loop

It isn't rocket science as you said...well, is all my opinion anyway, I can be wrong.

[mido9]

The difference is that quillbolt or colossal can have uses outside of said loops,while hunter cannot,if a card cannot exist except to ruin formats when it is playable OR be a pile of **** that cant fool bad players into thinking it is competitive when it isnt truly competitive,then it is badly designed. Bad design is not just really really broken cards yaknow,larvae moth can be filed as bad card design because it will never add anything to the game.

[HSektor]

[quote name='mido9' timestamp='1335711042' post='5928315']
The difference is that quillbolt or colossal can have uses outside of said loops,while hunter cannot,if a card cannot exist except to ruin formats when it is playable OR be a pile of **** that cant fool bad players into thinking it is competitive when it isnt truly competitive,then it is badly designed. Bad design is not just really really broken cards yaknow,larvae moth can be filed as bad card design because it will never add anything to the game.
[/quote]

So, that's it? Just Ban every card that "doesn't add something for the game"? Let's ban Rainbow of Life then. It generates loops and people will never use it outside of the loop.

Let's unban Mind Master, people use it in non-loop Psychics.

[mido9]

[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1335711345' post='5928318']
So, that's it? We will ban every card that "doesn't add something for the game"? Let's ban Rainbow of Life then. It generates loops and people will never use it outside of the loop.

Let's unban Mind Master, people use it in non-loop Psychics.
[/quote]

Except ROL can fool people into thinking it is competitive. If a card is good enough to fool bad people into thinking it is competitive then it enforces the gamestate's mold becoming "This card sucks,but a lot of bad people will fall for it being good,then bad players will make bad choices and lose for those bad choices,while people who know this card sucks will win more for it",making the game relatively better and more skill rewarding(because it takes skill to know a competitive card from a trap),larvae moth,hunter,mass driver or the like can never fool someone into thinking they are competitive,which is why ROL has even a shred of good card design while the others do not.

In mass driver's case it is impossible for it to be competitive without being stupid,which is why it is bannable,moth can never be stupid,which is why it does not warrant a hit.

[El Majishan]

To address point 1.

If all decks are able to gain mass advantage through diff means, doesn't that mean the playing field is balanced? Deck A can gain a plus 4 from great field control, deck B can gain plus 4 from great hand control, deck C control the game state through the use of monsters eff/back row ect ect. If each deck is capable of gaining advantage though its own play style to me that is balance.

To Address point 2.

Yes, Quickdandy was said to be broken by many players who found that a +1 or +2 every turn was just not cool. As we both agreed the deck fell from favor due to better decks coming along...and even those deck fell from fave due to better decking coming along.....Sabers were not even hit by the list and they are now seen as a tier 2 deck. Again due to the evolution of the game.

In this game in every format, card play-ability is decided by how much advantage it can gain you...it has always been like that an that will not change. Chances are if it does not net you at least a +0 or the -1 gains you some type of significant outcome, the card would not see play. Even in other games, usefulness is decided by what you gain at what cost....in fact thats just life. YuGiOh is just at a point where deck are able to gain massive advantage at little cost...and if multiple decks can do it...that is now the norm of the game...those who prefer a slow format that is based on small advantage gained turn by turn this is absurd, but to others who enjoy a fast paced format where games are explosive this is great.

The ability to put 7500 on the board come from WU Rat...which I view as A mini Debris Dragon..and thats at 1. I still believe that all Carrier does on its own is add consistency to the deck.

To Address Point 3.

Wind Ups do not harm the meta...the loop harms the meta. Deal with the loop by hitting Hunter and Wind-Up are fine. And to me diversity does have a part to play in balance...if multiple deck are able to compete, that means power is not just held by 1 or 2 deck. The Balance of power is spread out.

Hero decks may not be able to explode on the 1st turn, but that is due to the fact it is control deck not a combo deck. Heroes have one of the BEST top decks in the game in the form of Miracle Fusion and with the right opening hand they can and usually do complete shut down the "big 3"....plus "Summon set 4" is not significant set up...

To Address Point 4.

You are basically saying that you blame the players for running good cards. Zenmaity is a great card that adds consistency to the deck. You do not work for Zenmaity?...do you work for a Miracle Fusion? Did you Work for a +2 off Shining? Do you work for a draw or raigeki off Nova and Zero?

I'm not bias against hero, in fact its my fave deck. But I'm just using it as an example. This is just how the game we play has evolved...one side of the meta is about speed while the other is control.

[HSektor]

Well, it takes skills and nerves to pull out hand rape with just 1 hunter, 1 carrier and 2 or 1 rat. Even if you make it on the first turn, in the end you will make the OP discard 1~2 cards, summon 1~2 XYZ and maybe set something, then the OP will proceed to reverse rape with Black Hole, CyDra, etc

Ban because of "Bad Design" isn't the solution, slowdown the damn loop is.


[i]No need to kill the Bear, just cut its throat. -[/i] Ulysses, Fallout New Vegas: Lonesome Road.

[El Majishan]

Or you can just ban Hunter and put Rat at 2 so the deck can maintain some form of consistency.

[mido9]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1335711860' post='5928324']
To address point 1.

If all decks are able to gain mass advantage through diff means, doesn't that mean the playing field is balanced? Deck A can gain a plus 4 from great field control, deck B can gain plus 4 from great hand control, deck C control the game state through the use of monsters eff/back row ect ect. If each deck is capable of gaining advantage though its own play style to me that is balance.
[/quote]

Fair enough,ill admit that is what i would find a strange way of balance.
[quote]To Address point 2.

Yes, Quickdandy was said to be broken by many players who found that a +1 or +2 every turn was just not cool. As we both agreed the deck fell from favor due to better decks coming along...and even those deck fell from fave due to better decking coming along.....Sabers were not even hit by the list and they are now seen as a tier 2 deck. Again due to the evolution of the game.

In this game in every format, card play-ability is decided by how much advantage it can gain you...it has always been like that an that will not change. Chances are if it does not net you at least a +0 or the -1 gains you some type of significant outcome, the card would not see play. Even in other games, usefulness is decided by what you gain at what cost....in fact thats just life. YuGiOh is just at a point where deck are able to gain massive advantage at little cost...and if multiple decks can do it...that is now the norm of the game...those who prefer a slow format that is based on small advantage gained turn by turn this is absurd, but to others who enjoy a fast paced format where games are explosive this is great.

The ability to put 7500 on the board come from WU Rat...which I view as A mini Debris Dragon..and thats at 1. I still believe that all Carrier does on its own is add consistency to the deck.[/quote]

The game is evolving in an OTK/free cards enforcing way. This sort of evolution is not exactly the best thing for game since OTKs are supposed to be eradicated for draining player interaction,and free cards go against everything the game actually stands for; Any sort of skill needed to be a good player.

Yugioh has always been like this does not mean that yugioh should be like this. What konami decides is an entirely different issue from what should have happened or should happen,and would you really trust the game design ideals of the people who couldnt even see EOTS FTK coming?"This is the game,deal with it" lines ds not automatically mean that what the game is like is the ideal way to do it. I do not specifically desire a slower format,just one where any sort of card advantage is deserved in even the slightest way,even though i actually like this format.

Comparing wind up rat to debris dragon is not a good argument,comparing to junk synchron might be a better way to put it.The sole reason why debris is considered limitworthy is because of it's summon targets,namely a certain level 3 weed that rewards overextension,and it's summon end results,like stardust,trish,scrap,gungneer,and so on. Rat is limited to grabbing wind ups,which arent that good on their effects,and rank 3s,of which there arent that many particularly gamebreaking ones that windups can use other than maity,leviathan dragon is a 2500 beater,okay,acid golem is a restriction filled 3000 beater,okay,leviair is useless in WU,gigabrilliant sucks,tentempo and the symphony djynns arent that good,that leaves the sole problem with rat is it's biggest summon target maity.

[Quote]To Address Point 3.Wind Ups do not harm the meta...the loop harms the meta. Deal with the loop by hitting Hunter and Wind-Up are fine. And to me diversity does have a part to play in balance...if multiple deck are able to compete, that means power is not just held by 1 or 2 deck. The Balance of power is spread out.

Hero decks may not be able to explode on the 1st turn, but that is due to the fact it is control deck not a combo deck. Heroes have one of the BEST top decks in the game in the form of Miracle Fusion and with the right opening hand they can and usually do complete shut down the "big 3"....plus "Summon set 4" is not significant set up...
[/Quote]

The loop is not the only thing harming the meta,it's only half of the time that the hand drop loop is the problem from looking at assorted feature matches,there's also the issue of random drop OTKs or one card 7500 atk combos.

With the right opening hand anything can be good,but with wind ups your chance of opening "the nuts" is much more than heroes,so that's where it becomes worrisome,and the result when you DO open "The nuts" can also be better than what heroes can do on average.

[Quote]To Address Point 4.

You are basically saying that you blame the players for running good cards. Zenmaity is a great card that adds consistency to the deck. You do not work for Zenmaity?...do you work for a Miracle Fusion? Did you Work for a +2 off Shining? Do you work for a draw or raigeki off Nova and Zero?

I'm not bias against hero, in fact its my fave deck. But I'm just using it as an example. This is just how the game we play has evolved...one side of the meta is about speed while the other is control.
[/Quote]

Dont twist my words. Im blaming zenmaity for being too damn easy to see that it is a good card,part of the whole idea of deckbuilding skill is to need a bit of skill to know a good card from a bad card,that's what separates bad players from good players is it not? The ability to know which card is terrible or not is what deckbuilding creativity thrives on,but when the cards are so apparant that they are broken that is when that sort of skill in what to run fades out.

You work to get the setup for miracle fusion in that you have to set up the grave more than you would to get out a zenmaity with a level 3 in the grave and start churning.

You work more to get off a zero or nova in that you have to run inconsistent trash like mask change OR get your graveyard setup with mostly mediocre water heroes for zero than you would to get a shark and magician and go OTK,and so forth.

[Kerrazy]

Wind-ups aren't BROKEN because they can make 3 Zenmaity first turn, that merely makes them a good deck and supports the idea of the archetype, which is to Xyz. What makes Wind-ups seriously broken is the fact that they can consistantly kill off the opponent's hand turn 1 and win. That's why they should ban Hunter because, whereas it's not a broken card design, it's one of those cards that you can easily activate often enough to win, and keep Zenmaity at 3 for a format and see what happens to Wind-up.