Alternate Win Conditions besides Exodia and Final Countdown

[Zowayix]

With the recent flood of topics on Exodia (>_>) I was thinking about how people here seem to hate Alternate Win Conditions. I read through some of the previous topics, and the general consensus seems to be:

- Alternate Win Conditions are generally stupid because decks that use them rely only on the Alternate Win Condition to win, making it not "alternate" at all. The most typical decks are Exodia (first turn draw draw draw I WIN) and Final Countdown (stall stall stall I WIN).
- However, Alternate Win Conditions that are mostly redundant (either because the setup required often wins the duel on its own anyway, or the setup would be better used on a normal win condition), such as Vennominaga appear to be seen as good Alternate Win Conditions.

With the above two points in mind, I've posted some Alternate Win Conditions below, and my opinion on them based on those above two points. What does everyone else think?

- Exodia/Final Countdown: Generally seen as [b]stupid[/b] because the points above. I agree.

- Vennominaga: [b]Good[/b] because of the second point. In order to keep it alive, this card's ATK will usually be high enough that three attacks would usually drop the opponent's LP to 0 anyway.

- Exodius: Seems [b]good[/b]; if you're aiming to use its last effect, then this card's ATK will usually be boosted high enough that the five attacks would usually drop the opponent's LP to 0 anyway.

- Destiny Board: Too unreliable to really use at all. [b]Bad[/b] (not stupid) because it's so hard to win with. In my opinion, if you are lucky enough to get all four Spirit Messages out, you deserved the win (unlike with Exodia/Final Countdown).

- Horakhty: [b]Not sure [/b]about this one. It does require having all 3 Egyptian Gods out to summon it, which would probably fall under the "redundant" point and make it considered "[b]good[/b]" (you could probably win just with the 3 Gods), but the only way I've ever seen this played is through Return from the Different Dimension*, which only temporarily summons the 3 Gods, making it fall under the "this deck was designed only to win through Horakhty and nothing else" and thus be considered a "[b]stupid[/b]" Alternate Win Condition.
[size=1][size=2]*I know Ra can't be Special Summoned; I'm referring to Summoning Slifer, Obelisk, and 3 other monsters through RftDD, then Tributing the 3 monsters for Ra.[/size][/size]

- Destiny Leo: Seems [b]good[/b] because it needs 3 Level 8 monsters to Xyz Summon, and there's better monsters to use with 3 Level 8's, making this fall more under the "redundant" point. Like Destiny Board, if you manage to keep this alive for 3 turns with no Spells/Traps and no Battle Phases, you deserve the win.

- Last Turn: Banned because it was [b]stupid[/b] and broken. Not much more discussion needed.

- Victory Dragon: It seems [b]good[/b] to me, given that multi-Tribute Summons, especially those relying on a specific Type, are quite difficult to pull off. It would also fall under the "redundant" point because the 3-Tribute Summon would probably be better used on something like, say, Obelisk. Was it really banned because it was broken, or just because "cards should not be allowed to affect something other than the current Duel"?

And just to make this complete, I'm including the below even though they aren't really "Alternate Win Conditions" but pretty much function the same way. Would you consider these good, bad, or stupid?

- Arcana Force XXI - The World Lockdown
- Flint Lock Loop
- After Glow from Tag Force 6

[size=1][size=2](When I say "good", I'm referring to a card that has a positive impact on the game, like, say, Torrential Tribute. "Stupid" means it has a negative impact on the game, like Exodia. "Bad" means not worth using or playing, like Larvae Moth.)[/size][/size]

[Blake]

Victory Dragon was banned because poor sports would scoop before the hit that would win the match, or so I've heard.

Exodius is bad because it's a shitty version of Exodia.

Vennominaga is the onlywell designed one, and I'm still not 100% on Leo being good design.

[Zowayix]

I wouldn't call Exodius bad because it's still worthwhile to play, unlike Destiny Board. If you think Exodius is as worthless as Destiny Board, can you elaborate?

About surrendering against Victory Dragon, I remember that there was a rule saying that if you scooped when Victory Dragon was out, then you were declared to have surrendered the Match, not just the Duel. I recall that it might have been banned because people didn't want a rule like that to exist for only one monster, or something.

[HSektor]

It's funny how Exodius is good in decks without the exodia pieces.

[Bahamut - Envoy of the End]

Think Destiny Leo was redesigned with Venominaga and how that worked out in mind; you can win outright with it just attacking (although not as effectively as with Neo Galaxy or Fran Ken) but should that fail there's a Plan B. And to implement plan B you can't just go 'Destiny Leo, Safe Zone, sit around for 3 turns doing nothing.'

Victory Dragon is rightly banned for being mopre trouble than its worth, and because having that sort of effect kinda defies the point of having best 2 out of 3. Anyone (mostly) can fluke 1 round, so for it to count as 2 and game over is pretty... unsavoury, IMO. Plus scooping and stuff.

[DARKPLANT RISING]

Actually, Victory Dragon was banned because [b]it made the Side Deck useless and forced everyone to run Anti-Victory-Match Kill.dek cards in the main deck.[/b] Disabling a whole (and pretty major) concept of the game on its own caught enough attention of lolnami to get hit by the banhammer.

Which means, Inzektors, which are forcing every single OCG deck to run 3 Veiler, WILL get hit in Sept'.

[Mysty]

[quote name='Darkplant - VENOM' timestamp='1342953750' post='5985375']
Actually, Victory Dragon was banned because [b]it made the Side Deck useless and forced everyone to run Anti-Victory-Match Kill.dek cards in the main deck.[/b] Disabling a whole (and pretty major) concept of the game on its own caught enough attention of lolnami to get hit by the banhammer.

Which means, Inzektors, which are forcing every single OCG deck to run 3 Veiler, WILL get hit in Sept'.
[/quote]

That's only true in Japan, because IIRC in Japan you can tell your opponent that you refuse their surrender or that you'll only accept their surrender if they surrender the match. In the TCG you can just say "Ok, scoop" and just lose the game. However, since the game's list is made in OCG-land, that carries over to TCG-land.

I get a strange feeling that Konami's going to take the "Book of Moon approach" on this meta and limit Veiler, because with Konami you never really know what's going to happen.

OT: Vennominaga is probably the best designed of the alternate wins since:
• it requires very good deck dedication
• it can very easily win on its own without its win condition, hence making that condition "alternate".
• self-protecting.
A little hard work to get to the final stage, but once there, not much is going to save your opponent except maybe a Volcanic Queen, Lava Golem, or Rainbow Neos.

[DARKPLANT RISING]

Oh, and BTW TC, you forgot to add these alt win conditions:
-Summoning Dragonfly
-Summoning Rescue Rabbit
-Activating Future Fusion

[.Rai]

- If you get the alternate win condition out, you could have won anyway.
- Requires deck dedication.
- Isn't abusable.

Mostly as long as it fills out the last one, and one of the former two, it's well designed as a win condition. That doesn't necessarily mean it's well designed as a card (note Destiny Board: a perfectly viable alternate win condition, but utterly terrible card design anyway).

[b]Vennominaga
Natural deck-out
Empty Jar
Destiny Leo
Destiny Board[/b]

I'd say those five as good alternate win conditions. However, Empty Jar is awful design (because it reduces player-player interaction) and Destiny Leo and Destiny Board are bad design (because they're just really redundant), so [b]Vennominaga and Deck-Out[/b] as the only legitimate alternate win conditions with design taken in mind.

Empty Jar's an interesting case only because as an alternate win condition, it's just mathematics. It's basically 50/50 if you take the fact it's a match into account. And it's nowhere near as bad as Exodia or Final Countdown considering that it's much harder to even counter them, and they get 8000 Life Points of cushioning. Empty Jar's cushioning is practically non-existant since your win condition is one monster with an ATK and DEF that doesn't matter. Still, they're all awful design.

[Zowayix]

I never knew Victory Dragon had such an effect on the game...Very interesting.

The below alt win conditions don't get discussed much...what does everyone think of them?
- Horakhty
- Arcana Force XXI - The World Lockdown
- Flint Lock Loop
- After Glow (Tag Force 6 only)

My opinions:
- Horakhty: I think its abuse with RftDD was unanticipated by Konami. It might have been designed to be good, but it ended up being kinda stupid.
- World Lock and Flint Lock Loop: You need four specific and dedicated cards for both of these, and it's not exactly ragequit-worthy if you lose to them (unlike some other alt win conditions). I would probably call these good.
- After Glow: If it were released identical to its TF6 effect, I would call it stupid. It's anime and video game only for a reason: it was probably designed as a plot device that players could actually use in TF6 just for the lulz.

[.Rai]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1342971600' post='5985517']
I never knew Victory Dragon had such an effect on the game...Very interesting.
The below alt win conditions don't get discussed much...what does everyone think of them?
- Horakhty
- Arcana Force XXI - The World Lockdown
- Flint Lock Loop
- After Glow (Tag Force 6 only)
My opinions:
- Horakhty: I think its abuse with RftDD was unanticipated by Konami. It might have been designed to be good, but it ended up being kinda stupid.
- World Lock and Flint Lock Loop: You need four specific and dedicated cards for both of these, and it's not exactly ragequit-worthy if you lose to them (unlike some other alt win conditions). I would probably call these good.
- After Glow: If it were released identical to its TF6 effect, I would call it stupid. It's anime and video game only for a reason: it was probably designed as a plot device that players could actually use in TF6 just for the lulz.
[/quote]

Horakhty is fine. It does its job as a overly showy card made to please fans well. RftDD is broken and should be banned anyway.

World Lock and Flint Lock Loop are also fine, because they're based on cards with accidental interactions. Luckily though, they're such obscure and difficult interactions, they're also irrelevant.

After-Glow, irrelevant.

[werewolfjedi]

so what would be decent alt win conditions then?
20 spell counters from boss monster on the standby?
20 monsters in the graveyard?
55 cards in your deck when playing a special card?
20,000 life points during your standby off special card?
(taking ideas from magic here)

[Blake]

[quote name='werewolfjedi' timestamp='1343008245' post='5986006']
so what would be decent alt win conditions then?
20 spell counters from boss monster on the standby?
20 monsters in the graveyard?
55 cards in your deck when playing a special card?
20,000 life points during your standby off special card?
(taking ideas from magic here)
[/quote]
1. Don't take stuff from Magic to Yugioh unless you spend a good deal of time thinking about it, otherwise things like 20 monsters in grave happens.
2. Just don't make alt wins. They don't need to exist, and we have a couple balanced ones already, so why make more?

[Agro]

[quote name='Mysty' timestamp='1342964193' post='5985443']
I get a strange feeling that Konami's going to take the "Book of Moon approach" on this meta and limit Veiler, because with Konami you never really know what's going to happen.
[/quote]Except Veiler isn't an aggressive card. It has essentially one purpose. Defend. Book of Moon can be used for defense as well as offense, it may slow down the game, but it also gives many decks a power boost. Veiler is all defense.

[Zelfore]

[quote name='werewolfjedi' timestamp='1343008245' post='5986006']
so what would be decent alt win conditions then?
20 spell counters from boss monster on the standby?
20 monsters in the graveyard?
55 cards in your deck when playing a special card?
20,000 life points during your standby off special card?
(taking ideas from magic here)
[/quote]
Magical Citadel of Endymion
Lightsworn/Chaos
Madolche/First Turn
Bwahahaha! No.

Honestly, alternate win conditions hardly ever work. It's not easy making a fair AWC when you're constantly adding new cards. There are always loopable, always abuseable, and always broken cards. It's fun to speculate what kind of AW cards you can come up with, but actually releasing them? Way too difficult.
I am looking forward to people using Destiny Leo though. No Spells/Traps? Fantastic!

[This Account is Unplayable]

Alt wins suck.

Alt wins suck even harder in yugioh.

Alt wins shouldn't exist because no matter how you do them they'll either be f***ing abysmal or bad for the game.

There is no way to balance alt wins in this game.

Even Venominnaga, while being the best alt win in yugioh, is a f***ing horribly made card, since it's completely unusable.

I'll stick to my 8000 damage over the course of 2-10 turns, thank you very much.

[.Rai]

[quote name='werewolfjedi' timestamp='1343008245' post='5986006']
so what would be decent alt win conditions then?
20 spell counters from boss monster on the standby?
20 monsters in the graveyard?
55 cards in your deck when playing a special card?
20,000 life points during your standby off special card?
(taking ideas from magic here)
[/quote]

Magic's balancing mechanism is to make things more expensive. YGO has no such mechanism - all they can do is add on conditions and costs, in which case they either become abusable or bad.

That's basically the one reason why YGO can't do alternate wins well.

[quote]20 monsters in the graveyard?[/quote]

[center][img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/10e/160.jpg[/img][/center]

Magic pulled it off only because the card itself is just a casual play card. YGO couldn't do it mainly because they can actually run Monster Mash decks, Lightsworns exist and the graveyard is used as another resource pool.

[quote]20 spell counters from boss monster on the standby?[/quote]

[center][img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ds/114.jpg[/img][/center]

If we transfer the card into YGO:

- With indestructibility, it's Final Countdown.
- Without indestructibility, you might as well just run a good deck.

[quote]20,000 life points during your standby off special card?[/quote]

[center][img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/zen/12.jpg[/img][/center]

We already have that win condition anyway - Flint loop.

[quote]55 cards in your deck when playing a special card?[/quote]

[center][img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m13/44.jpg[/img][/center]

YGO has an upper deck limit, whereas Magic doesn't. Magic can print such a card for casual play, while YGO has no reason to.

[Zowayix]

Well, here are two alt. win conditions derived from MTG that would work in Yugioh without being stupid, although they'd be pretty bad like Destiny Board:
(Sorry, I can't remember the names of the cards)

1. [Normal Spell] If you control 5 monsters all of different Attributes, 1 Continuous Spell Card, 1 Equip Spell Card, 1 Quick-Play Spell Card, and 1 Ritual Spell Card, you win the Duel. (Any of the controlled cards may be face-down. Reveal them upon activation of this card.)
2. [Normal Spell] If all 26 letters of the alphabet exist among the names of all face-up monsters you control, you win the Duel. (This would obviously require some reworking for languages that do not use the Latin alphabet, like Japanese.)

And a third one that I made up:
3. [Normal Spell] If you have exactly 5730 Life Points, you win the Duel. (First method I think of is A Hero Lives + King of Yamimakai + Mooyan Curry + Mystik Wok for a stupid 5-card FTK.)

[.Rai]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1343063677' post='5986391']
Well, here are two alt. win conditions derived from MTG that would work in Yugioh without being stupid, although they'd be pretty bad like Destiny Board:
(Sorry, I can't remember the names of the cards)
1. [Normal Spell] If you control 5 monsters all of different Attributes, 1 Continuous Spell Card, 1 Equip Spell Card, 1 Quick-Play Spell Card, and 1 Ritual Spell Card, you win the Duel. (Any of the controlled cards may be face-down. Reveal them upon activation of this card.)
2. [Normal Spell] If all 26 letters of the alphabet exist among the names of all face-up monsters you control, you win the Duel. (This would obviously require some reworking for languages that do not use the Latin alphabet, like Japanese.)
And a third one that I made up:
3. [Normal Spell] If you have exactly 5730 Life Points, you win the Duel. (First method I think of is A Hero Lives + King of Yamimakai + Mooyan Curry + Mystik Wok for a stupid 5-card FTK.)
[/quote]

[center][img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/tsts/91.jpg[/img][img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/uh/41.jpg[/img][img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/roe/38.jpg[/img][/center]

Don't know why you would print them when they'd basically be pack filler, and there are plenty of cards you could print instead.

Konami just have no reason to print alternate win conditions for a casual environment when usually YGO's alt wins are awful.