Sangan

[Coffee Black]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1345178834' post='6008894']
Why is keeping it a legit reason? Being able to Normal Summon an Xyz is God awful design, and the fact that you get a mill along with it is stupid. Have you read Leviair? 17? Zenmaines? Temtempo? Acid Golem? That is WAY too good to be able to normal summon any of them at will, and get a Sangan mill with it. Just because Xyz are the current focus of the game, as a whole, does not mean a generic Rank 3 engine is in any way good and should exist.
And I still think Sangan is good without TGU, I just don't think it's insanely good at 1. I could be wrong, but I don't really see it as a problem card.
[/quote]

Admitadely, there are many great Rank 3's to choose from. None of the xyz you listed are really broken (except maybe Leviar); the power of TGU is getting the best Xyz for the situation. I'd argue that summoning any given Rank 3 isn't game breaking. Instant Leviar is the only one I'll conceed as unfair.

If tour guide was at 2, I'd imagine that at least some people would be bothered by the chances of double tour guide turn one, so it will be a weaker card.

[Agro]

[quote name='Coffee Black' timestamp='1345182826' post='6008947']
Admitadely, there are many great Rank 3's to choose from. None of the xyz you listed are really broken (except maybe Leviar); the power of TGU is getting the best Xyz for the situation. I'd argue that summoning any given Rank 3 isn't game breaking. Instant Leviar is the only one I'll conceed as unfair.

If tour guide was at 2, I'd imagine that at least some people would be bothered by the chances of double tour guide turn one, so it will be a weaker card.
[/quote]So your argument is that effortlessly summoning a cardtype that's supposed to take effort to get out isn't broken.

If so, then your argument is invalid.

[Coffee Black]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1345183600' post='6008952']
So your argument is that effortlessly summoning a cardtype that's supposed to take effort to get out isn't broken.

If so, then your argument is invalid.
[/quote]

Going by "summong a cardtype with ease is broken" as a statement by itself, then there are way more cards than TGU that would need to be banned.

The term "broken" is thrown around so loosely sometimes. Some people think of the banlist differently than others. I personally think that cards that are good, or even great at would they do aren't necessarily "broken" just for that fact. IMO, things should be banned when they are absolutely ridiculous and mean huge plays or decide games whenever they're played.

I really don't think this games has come down to "Whoever summons TGU 1st wins". It's a great card that can change a game. But it's not extremely dominant or nearly impossible to play against (unlike Hunter, whose sole purpose is to get rid of your hand before you can play it). 3 is too much, 2 guarentees 1 Xyz, 1 or less means the card is nearly unusable for the average player. TGU hasn't been THAT detrimental for the game. (and again, i would conceed that an instant Leviar is pretty unfair, but no other Rank 3 can decide games so fast in certain decks)

[Blake]

This topic is stupid because OP thinks TGU is good for the game.

TGU is extremely detrimental to the game. You shouldn't be able to normal summon an Xyz for no effort. If you think you should, you have no concept of card design or how a game should be made. There's no point in arguing as you're incapable of seeing that TGU doesn't DESERVE to be usable by "the average player."

[Expelsword]

Xyz Summons already practically took no effort. They already benefited hugely from the spam summoning Synchro combos did.

That's not a luxury Synchro had when it was introduced.

[Le Welche Alt]

Tour Guide is quite clearly poor for the game. It, like Rescue Rabbit enables a 1 card xyz summon but unlike the rabbit this card allows a player to run not run any subpar Vanillas and
Is capable of searching Sangan. Such a card CANNOT be allowed at three though lowering that to two simply forces a player to run a single subpar card (though a player can use Night Assailant to counter Rabbit).

[Expelsword]

Use 2 Tour Guide
Always seach Tour Guide before Sangan
Minimize dead cards
Not so bad...

[Agro]

[quote name='Coffee Black' timestamp='1345216040' post='6009154']
Going by "summong a cardtype with ease is broken" as a statement by itself, then there are way more cards than TGU that would need to be banned.
[/quote]You completely ignored the part of that sentence that makes the statement completely different. I didn't say "summoning a card type with ease is broken. I said summoning a card type that's not supposed to be summoned that easily, with that much ease, is broken. TGU takes NO effort. There's NO graveyard setup, you can just Normal Summon it first turn and go into anything you want.

[Coffee Black]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1345216554' post='6009158']
This topic is stupid because OP thinks TGU is good for the game.

TGU is extremely detrimental to the game. You shouldn't be able to normal summon an Xyz for no effort. If you think you should, you have no concept of card design or how a game should be made. There's no point in arguing as you're incapable of seeing that TGU doesn't DESERVE to be usable by "the average player."
[/quote]

I never said TGU was helpful for the game, just that it didn't hurt the game, at least not as much as you think it does. If you really care about card design, then you shouldn't play yugioh. As I mentioned earlier, this game is full of combos and cards that are probably too powerful for their own good.

Saying this is stupid because I don't agree with you isn't arguing. It just seems that fundamentally, you hate the concept behind Tour Guide, and that no mater what, you think it shouldn't have been made. For this thread, I've had the mindset of how TGU is played, and what it does commonly in duels. If you believe that TGU give players easy wins by itself, than ok. I just don't believe that.

And also, I've already stated how good a card Sangan is without TGU; really, the only reason I've been talking about it is that so many people think Sangan is only good cause of Tour Guide.

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1345223186' post='6009235']
You completely ignored the part of that sentence that makes the statement completely different. I didn't say "summoning a card type with ease is broken. I said summoning a card type that's not supposed to be summoned that easily, with that much ease, is broken. TGU takes NO effort. There's NO graveyard setup, you can just Normal Summon it first turn and go into anything you want.
[/quote]

"not supposed to be summoned that easily"

At least with that statement, it sounds like you also fundamentally hate what TGU is rather than what it does from duel to duel. I'm not thinking of how the game was "supposed" to be, just as it is right now.

You basically said "you summon it and do anything you want", which is false. You get a Rank 3 Xyz. Don't act like a Rank 3 is extremely dangerous. I wouldn't say that the second you summon a Rank 3 you gain a ton of advantage and make it the game an easy win.

[Miror B]

[quote name='Coffee Black' timestamp='1345231075' post='6009371']
At least with that statement, it sounds like you also fundamentally hate what TGU is rather than what it does from duel to duel. I'm not thinking of how the game was "supposed" to be, just as it is right now.

You basically said "you summon it and do anything you want", which is false. You get a Rank 3 Xyz. Don't act like a Rank 3 is extremely dangerous. I wouldn't say that the second you summon a Rank 3 you gain a ton of advantage and make it the game an easy win.
[/quote]
We do hate what TGU is. It's an effortless beatstick/wall/whatever else you can shove into the extra Deck.