Mehmani Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 [img]http://i.imgur.com/IXw0n.jpg[/img] For attribute support, no less. I've updated it with a new type (stopping RotA picking it up) and a new name ("player" was a bit dull). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicBoss99 Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 This is pretty Overpowered. because, based on the effect, it says: You can tribute 2 really weak monsters in exchange for 2 Lv.7 monsters, one of them on your opponent's turn. I guess this could work if you made his attack lower.... On the bright side, Awesome picture choice and OCG was flawless! Overall: 8/10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Βyakuya Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 This makes Mist Valley seem a bit too powerful with an instant Apex Avian. You can toss it around with Divine Wind of Mist Valley and summon Mist Valleys all over, then tribute to summon Avian. Not to mention easy to search with RotA. Maybe some drawbacks would be nice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted September 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Looking at Mist Valleys as a deck, I don't think a bit more oomph will do them any harm. The RotA searchability does seem a little problematic though. I'll rectify that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanael D. Striker Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 I like how this is a quick effect. Have this and a weak WIND monster? No problem, trade it in for a stronger monster that should make your opponent think twice. Like people have said before, Mist Valley would like having this at their disposal. I honestly think you hit the nail on the head by making this a good Lonefire for WIND, but not as destructive as the original. TBH, WIND kinda needed this since it could make things interesting indeed for Mist Valley and other WIND decks. Well done Mikhal, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted September 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Thank you very much. I don't think giving Mist Valleys the ability to get an Apex Avian out easily is bad. Balance is totally relative - introducing a card like this to an already top-tier archetype would be insane. Elegant Egotist is ridiculously good, but it's fine because it supports a weak archetype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 I feel like more defensive stats like 1600/1900 help balance it out a bit by forcing you to play it in Defense for a control strategy, and Attack when being aggressive. 1600 ATK for the sake of not being Sangan-searchable. Mist Valleys are stronger than you think, at least. They've topped a YCS, I believe, mainly with Mist Valley Falcon and utility equips. But, seriously, the ability to lock out the entire game within the first three-to-five turns is seriously threatening to the game. Even if it's not OPed, it'll be unfun. But, it's well done. It's simply an alternative to running Ninjas, which is fine (and I'd go for Ninjas anyway for Dark Simorgh access). I still stand by 1600/1900 stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted September 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 It isn't searchable by Sangan. Mist Valleys haven't topped, but they are a bit better since Order of Chaos. This streamlines them a bit - one of my main aims with cardmaking to turn Tier 2 or casual decks into solid, consistent, powerful decks. I don't break them, I just give them an edge. I hope that this card has managed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Viable targets include but not limited to: Armed Dragon LV5 (as a beatstick) Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds (lol wtf?!) Crystal Beast Sapphire Pegasus (no one runs CBeasts anymore) "Gusto" Main Deck monsters "Mist Valley" Main Deck monsters "Dragunity" Main Deck monsters HERO Stratos GBeasts: Bestiari/Equeste/Lanista/Secutor "Harpie" Monsters Koa'ki Meru Doom/Drago/Tornado/Speeder (Last 2 are quite inconsistent) Tengu Reborn (yes I'm trolling on this one's name) Bani-Fish/Sea Serpent/Aqua monsters A handful of WIND Psychics Ultimate Insect LV7 (lol wtf again?!) Debris Dragon/Spore/Quickdraw Synchron/Several other WIND Tuners idk...the design seems....let me explain. Being able to target this many cards for Summon is just insane. You can tribute cards you WANT in the Grave (Spore/Some Gustos/Reborn Tengu) and Summon some crazy cards such as Stratos for a +1 in a maybe weird WIND HERO build, a tech such as Koaki Doom to lock Chaos plays at any given moment and maybe makes Stormwind statue a bit more worth playing especially during your opponent's turn since you lock their Special Summons, and if it survives, just tribute it for something useful during your turn. I'm sure you can tech in those Genex Birdmans along with Divine Wind for Deck Thin/Deck Summon and Hand Advantage set up all in 1, makes Quill Pen of Gulldos a staple in the Deck as you can reuse the very resources used for the trigger making Tengu Plays somewhat consistent as before and just leads to way too many shennanigans. :/ Sorry but I'm calling broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1347128967' post='6021570'] Viable targets include but not limited to: Armed Dragon LV5 (as a beatstick) Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds (lol wtf?!) Crystal Beast Sapphire Pegasus (no one runs CBeasts anymore) "Gusto" Main Deck monsters "Mist Valley" Main Deck monsters "Dragunity" Main Deck monsters HERO Stratos GBeasts: Bestiari/Equeste/Lanista/Secutor "Harpie" Monsters Koa'ki Meru Doom/Drago/Tornado/Speeder (Last 2 are quite inconsistent) Tengu Reborn (yes I'm trolling on this one's name) Bani-Fish/Sea Serpent/Aqua monsters A handful of WIND Psychics Ultimate Insect LV7 (lol wtf again?!) Debris Dragon/Spore/Quickdraw Synchron/Several other WIND Tuners idk...the design seems....let me explain. Being able to target this many cards for Summon is just insane. You can tribute cards you WANT in the Grave (Spore/Some Gustos/Reborn Tengu) and Summon some crazy cards such as Stratos for a +1 in a maybe weird WIND HERO build, a tech such as Koaki Doom to lock Chaos plays at any given moment and maybe makes Stormwind statue a bit more worth playing especially during your opponent's turn since you lock their Special Summons, and if it survives, just tribute it for something useful during your turn. I'm sure you can tech in those Genex Birdmans along with Divine Wind for Deck Thin/Deck Summon and Hand Advantage set up all in 1, makes Quill Pen of Gulldos a staple in the Deck as you can reuse the very resources used for the trigger making Tengu Plays somewhat consistent as before and just leads to way too many shennanigans. :/ Sorry but I'm calling broken. [/quote] Pretty much all of those plays are undermeta and interesting strategies to play with. The idea of a Koaki Doom tech is nowhere near an OPed situation. Pretty sure Quill Pen is bad either way, since Daigusto does a cooler job without damaging your consistency. Gustos have only ever been viable as an engine for Psychic FTK (I guess this is vaguely reminiscent of Mind Master, but obviously, this is Once per Turn, and much less broken). In fact, I'm pretty sure that a lot of broken Deck Summoners were broken for not being Once per turn, or just insanely fast. Spore's also probably better in pure Plant Synchro, rather than a weird WIND engine hybrid. Stratos should be banned, so that's probably not relevant. It's easy to see why you could think it's like that. Because it does verge on a lot of dangerous potential, but I think it's safely within the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1347136156' post='6021660'] It's easy to see why you could think it's like that. Because it does verge on a lot of dangerous potential, but I think it's safely within the line. [/quote] But bad design is still bad design, like Tour Guide, Rescue Rabbit, etc. Lonefire has bad design written all over it, and I'm afraid this one does too, even if the plays aren't "top tire". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1347136308' post='6021664'] But bad design is still bad design, like Tour Guide, Rescue Rabbit, etc. Lonefire has bad design written all over it, and I'm afraid this one does too, even if the plays aren't "top tire". [/quote] Which is why I suggest it be 1600/1900. The problem of Lonefire and stuff were mostly because of their speed, not their flexibility (Lonefire was rarely used for Tytannial, Tour Guide hardly used for the entire toolbox of Fiend-Type monsters). When the card itself is Once per turn, can't tribute itself unlike Lonefire, and you can't have multiples, you end up with this monster that's surprisingly slow for what it seems. 1600/1900 is that last precaution to just slow it down and lets it be what it is: either a toolbox card, or a control card. In which this case, this is nothing for those fast OTK decks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted September 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Tell me, what is wrong with 1700/1300? I've deliberately done it to avoid Sangan, so what's the problem? And Chance, something is only broken if it affects the top tier. Elegant Egotist is an immensely powerful support card, and under your rules, it's "broken". Balance is always a matter of context. And as for context, keep in mind that the only way to get this out consistently is to run multiple copies, which, due to my restrictions, mean that the other two copies are clunky and dead draws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 [quote name='Mihails Tāls' timestamp='1347139400' post='6021687'] Tell me, what is wrong with 1700/1300? I've deliberately done it to avoid Sangan, so what's the problem? [/quote] I agree with this. And Spellcasters don't have viable search unless your playing Spellbooks, but even then this card isn't worth running with them (since it would have absolutely no purpose in the first place or space since the only thing that is going to get him out is either that Field Spell when it kicks the bucket or your Draw into it and Normal Summon). [quote name='Mihails Tāls' timestamp='1347139400' post='6021687'] And Chance, something is only broken if it affects the top tier. Elegant Egotist is an immensely powerful support card, and under your rules, it's "broken". Balance is always a matter of context. And as for context, keep in mind that the only way to get this out consistently is to run multiple copies, which, due to my restrictions, mean that the other two copies are clunky and dead draws. [/quote] I'd like to argue this: Elegant Eagotist - Condition: 1 Face-up "Harpie" -> Does: SS 1 "Harpie Lady"/"Harpie Ladie Sisters". Number of targets for an "archtype specific" card? 6 Targets. Wind Admiral - Condition: Tribute 1 WIND monster (does not have to be face-up due to it's wording) -> Does: SS 1 Level 7 or lower WIND monster from .dek, excluding itself. [spoiler=Number of Targets] [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1347128967' post='6021570'] Viable targets include but not limited to: Armed Dragon LV5 (as a beatstick) Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds (lol wtf?!) Crystal Beast Sapphire Pegasus (no one runs CBeasts anymore) "Gusto" Main Deck monsters "Mist Valley" Main Deck monsters "Dragunity" Main Deck monsters HERO Stratos GBeasts: Bestiari/Equeste/Lanista/Secutor "Harpie" Monsters Koa'ki Meru Doom/Drago/Tornado/Speeder (Last 2 are quite inconsistent) Tengu Reborn (yes I'm trolling on this one's name) Bani-Fish/Sea Serpent/Aqua monsters A handful of WIND Psychics Ultimate Insect LV7 (lol wtf again?!) Debris Dragon/Spore/Quickdraw Synchron/Several other WIND Tuner [/spoiler] [/quote] Also: [quote name='Mihails Tāls' timestamp='1347139400' post='6021687'] And Chance, something is only broken if it affects the[b] top tier[/b]. [/quote] Infernity Launcher is broken and at 1 its no longer affecting Top Tire. It still does not mean it is "not" broken. And that's just 1 to name, others include: Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaity Gateway of the Six Reasoning Grapha Monster Gate and idk if I should keep going from there. The fact that the design is too similar and even though it probably would not "affect the top tire", does not make it a valid reason for why designs like this should exist in the game in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Perhaps I should rephrase more comprehensively - something is only broken if it affects the top tier profoundly whilst at any number (although three particularly, as consistency can easily be reduced by limiting a card). Wind Admiral's targets are of little interest to the top tier, bar perhaps Mist Valley (and you must admit, Mist Valleys are not getting anywhere). Tengu has been shackled, Debris is mildly interesting, but certainly not all that competitive and the Dragunity monsters are decent at best. If you can name a card that really threatens a top tier deck that is a target of this card, then be my guest to declare it broken. Let me quote Deustodo "I do not make overpowered cards. I merely make cards that people think are overpowered." Balance is all relative, especially in the context of the ever-changing metagame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 [quote name='Mihails Tāls' timestamp='1347297246' post='6022612'] Perhaps I should rephrase more comprehensively - something is only broken if it affects the top tier profoundly whilst at any number (although three particularly, as consistency can easily be reduced by limiting a card). [/quote] It's still funny how BLS is a game changing card at 1 and the same can be said about Gorz, but you are correct about their consistency 'inthemselves'. But then again it's not fair to compare this guy to them. [quote name='Mihails Tāls' timestamp='1347297246' post='6022612'] Wind Admiral's targets are of little interest to the top tier, bar perhaps Mist Valley (and you must admit, Mist Valleys are not getting anywhere). Tengu has been shackled, Debris is mildly interesting, but certainly not all that competitive and the Dragunity monsters are decent at best. If you can name a card that really threatens a top tier deck that is a target of this card, then be my guest to declare it broken. [/quote] Alright. Bar on the fact that there are still far too many "targets" for this card to Summon, having that much diversity in 1 card is not good. The most broken concept I can currently think of is a pseudo Yata-Garasu moment with "Storm Caller" should you have cleared your opponent but not as reliant since it requires the destruction of a monster(s) and is already horridly inconsistent. [quote name='Mihails Tāls' timestamp='1347297246' post='6022612'] Let me quote Deustodo "I do not make overpowered cards. I merely make cards that people think are overpowered." Balance is all relative, especially in the context of the ever-changing metagame. [/quote] The concept of the card is overpowered. The usability in the current game is not. There's a huge difference between the "concept of a card" and "actual game play" though both affect each other directly. What I'm stating is that the concept of being able to Special Summon a monster of any caliber from the Deck so long as it's WIND and Level 7 or lower is broken. The fact that there are few targets to be able to make this of much use "at the moment" is what concerns me. Why does this concern me? Because future WIND based Archtypes that could potentially become competitive without being broken now have a gateway OF becoming broken which is bad (But as if Lolnami will ever decides to actually think deeply on the concepts of the cards it pulls out and not just on $$). So overall story short: Design of the card in-itself: Badly Overpowered Card's affect toward today's Meta: Mildly Underpowered Card's affect toward future Meta: Potently Overpowered as it could break future cards. (OoT - O.o I just realized. I enjoy arguing with you. It's very interesting and it got me to think about a few cards I've made that may need revising.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I understand and concur, at least in part, with your point, but the same point could be made about all attribute or type support cards. However, I feel that with regards to defining "brokenness", we go on a current value judgement. This card is currently balanced, with there being nothing that can capitalize on its admittedly somewhat exclusive effect. To say that this card is broken simply because there might be an archetype made in the future, that's an archetype that doesn't even exist, that could "break" this card, is simply fatuous. This formula of "it's broken because some might break it with an invisible card" can be literally applied to anyone. Gift of Greed becomes broken if a powerful archetype that relies on your opponent drawing cards is produced. Hiro's Shadow Scout is the same. It simply isn't fair logic to apply. It's the equivalent of telling someone to put down that pen or you'll have someone's eye out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Hieratic Kraken says otherwise. No one thought it would lead to an even worse form of handloop since Wind-ups. Kraken came first before Hieratics (I'm lagging on Ptolemys though). Hieratics/Ptolemys broke Kraken. This card (Wind Admiral) came before another archtype/support/etc. Then said other archtype/support/etc. may break it (Wind Admiral) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I'm a bit iffy on the fact that it being chainable means you can essentially save stuff from any destruction card in the game, and also means you can cycle through your stuff pretty fast during both turns. Personally I'd make it an Ignition effect but it's up to you. Good card though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomflyingobjects Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Honestly, this card is... a bit too broken for my liking. There isn't really too much of a cost, because you can tribute a simple level 3, and get a level 7 Wind Dragon-type in return. There is no real loss. If there is more restriction, say something like it has to have the same ATK as the tributed monster's ATK +400, or something like that, then it isn't as bad. But this card can use its effect during either turn, so you can easily give up 2 Wind monsters and Summon 2 stronger ones by your next turn, where you can summon a third. Plus, if you play it right, you can summon some of the higher-level Xyz monsters, like Lucky Straight, fairly easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted September 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 Ignition seems like a good idea, actually. I would like to keep it as being activated in either player's turn, though, so perhaps I'll add a "This card's effect is treated as Spell Speed 1" clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 I think "this card cannot be chained" would be the right grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomflyingobjects Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Agreed. Also, maybe you should say that it can only Summon cards from the Hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 That makes it a -1 and makes it pretty much useless. Deck is definitely the right thing to summon from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomflyingobjects Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Then it should be limited to the monster's ATK or something. Saying the monster summoned can't have more the 500 more ATK than the tributed one. When I said hand, it was just an idea to narrow it down. ANY lv7 or lower WIND monster from the deck is a tad broad for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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