Fabled Support

[Agro]

hi black


[b]Fabled Mamonn[/b]
[b][color=#ffd700]LIGHT[/color] / Level 3[/b]
[b][ Fiend / Effect ][/b]
If this card is discarded by a "Fabled" card effect: You can target 1 "Fabled" monster in your Graveyard, except "Fabled Mamonn"; Special Summon this card from your Graveyard, and if you do, add the targeted monster to your hand.
[b]ATK / 1400 DEF / 500[/b]

[b]Fabled Belphae[/b]
[b][color=#ffd700]LIGHT[/color] / Level 4[/b]
[b][ Fiend / Effect ][/b]
This card cannot be Special summoned from the Graveyard. If you control no monsters, you can Special Summon this card (from your hand) by banishing 1 "Fabled" monster from your Graveyard. Once, while this card is face-up on the field: You can Discard up to 2 "Fabled" monsters in your hand to the Graveyard; draw cards equal to the number of "Fabled" monsters discarded.
[b]ATK / 1800 DEF / 800[/b]

[b]Fabled Abadon[/b]
[b][color=#ffd700]LIGHT[/color] / Level 3[/b]
[b][ Fiend / Tuner ][/b]
You can discard this card and 1 other "Fabled" monster; send 1 "Fabled" monster from your Deck to the Graveyard. You cannot add "Fabled Abadon" from your Graveyard to your hand the turn this effect is activated.
[b]ATK / 1000 DEF / 1000[/b]

[b]Fabled Beelze[/b]
[b][color=#ffd700]LIGHT[/color] / Level 6[/b]
[b][ Fiend / Synchro / Effect ][/b]
1 "Fabled" Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
You can discard 1 card; both players discard 1 card. This effect of "Fabled Beelze" can only be activated once per turn. When this card is destroyed by a card effect: You can Special Summon 1 Level 4 or lower "Fabled" monster from your Graveyard.
[b]ATK / 2400 DEF / 1000[/b]

[AsianGuy1137]

That spell is an instant +2 in many cases. If it was just a draw 1 or banished the monster, it'd be more balanced.

[Agro]

Bump

[Blake]

Mammon is better than Lurrie... but still don't think I'd run it. For Level 1s, I'd rather use Doppel. It's a +1, but it's discard reliant, and the deck hardly needs more cards to be discarded.

Belphae seems... badly designed. It's not an inherent plus, and it takes some skill to use, but it doesn't seem that hard to manipulate it, especially when Kushano is a thing to maximize plusses. Also, I don't like that it's a Tour Guide target when the archetype has a searchable pseudo-reborn.

Abadon... It's like a Dark World that only works with Fableds. I have up to 3 MST, up to 3 Lance, up to 3 Dust Tornado, and Heavy... Why would I want this? It seems almost as mediocre and cloggy as Raven.

Beelze is stupid. I would only run it for an OTK machine. It's nothing but OTK support that punishes the opponent for stopping it. Um... what? Outside of the fact that it's a potential toolboxable OTK (Note that things like Chawa are made kinda... I guess the word is obsolete once it's out?) but I'm not even sure I want it for even that. It's just a bad card that can't do anything except make OTKs and punish the opponent for stopping one.

Divide's a +2 for doing nothing except playing the deck. Are you serious? This is the worst design of the lot, and it's just completely shameless. It's Pot of Greed that then Reincarnates a card for free.

All in all, you in no way solved any of the problems the deck has or you made broken ass support. It still has too many good targets for Discarding with not enough Discard power that doesn't eat up a precious Normal Summon. You have no semblance of balance in these cards and you don't seem to realize what the deck actually needs and what the main problem with the decktype is, and no, they aren't the same thing.

The cards are a mess of bad and lazy design in both directions, and I don't have anything good to say for even one of them.

[Agro]

[quote name='Josh Black' timestamp='1357535200' post='6113888']
Mammon is better than Lurrie... but still don't think I'd run it. For Level 1s, I'd rather use Doppel. It's a +1, but it's discard reliant, and the deck hardly needs more cards to be discarded.

Belphae seems... badly designed. It's not an inherent plus, and it takes some skill to use, but it doesn't seem that hard to manipulate it, especially when Kushano is a thing to maximize plusses. Also, I don't like that it's a Tour Guide target when the archetype has a searchable pseudo-reborn.

Abadon... It's like a Dark World that only works with Fableds. I have up to 3 MST, up to 3 Lance, up to 3 Dust Tornado, and Heavy... Why would I want this? It seems almost as mediocre and cloggy as Raven.

Beelze is stupid. I would only run it for an OTK machine. It's nothing but OTK support that punishes the opponent for stopping it. Um... what? Outside of the fact that it's a potential toolboxable OTK (Note that things like Chawa are made kinda... I guess the word is obsolete once it's out?) but I'm not even sure I want it for even that. It's just a bad card that can't do anything except make OTKs and punish the opponent for stopping one.

Divide's a +2 for doing nothing except playing the deck. Are you serious? This is the worst design of the lot, and it's just completely shameless. It's Pot of Greed that then Reincarnates a card for free.

All in all, you in no way solved any of the problems the deck has or you made broken ass support. It still has too many good targets for Discarding with not enough Discard power that doesn't eat up a precious Normal Summon. You have no semblance of balance in these cards and you don't seem to realize what the deck actually needs and what the main problem with the decktype is, and no, they aren't the same thing.

The cards are a mess of bad and lazy design in both directions, and I don't have anything good to say for even one of them.
[/quote]Edited. Do they look any better?

And you know, it couldn't hurt you to at least try not to come across as a dick while giving advice. You're supposed to be trying to improve the card maker. Not make them want to quit. Just saying.

[Blake]

This time around, the cards weren't just edited, they were completely changed. A card should never be designed in a way that it requires them to be totally changed.

Again, the design of the cards are questionable. And Beelze is STILL an OTK machine that punishes you for stopping it. Mammon feels inferior to Ganashia, despite the fact it gives you a +. Belphae rewards you for simply playing the deck or playing it wrong, both of which are signs of bad design. Abadon being any Lv. 3 or lower Fabled in exchange for discarding another Fabled seems really questionable, given the nature of how the cards work, and it again rewards you for playing the deck wrong or at all. The spell seems mediocre at best, because it's just a +0 and can only return Fableds. Why would I want to return only Fableds when part of the reason they like Avarice is restockign a used extra?

Also, because someone claimed you were great with cardmaking, I'm going to be especially harsh on you. You're held to a higher standard now, so congrats.

[Agro]

So explain to me how to make fabled playable at the meta level, because from what you're telling me, there's no well designed way to do it.

And there's a serious difference between holding someone to a higher standard and being harsh on them. It's the difference between "I know you're better than this" and "You're not as good as people think you are". The latter of which being the vibe being inferred.

[quote name='Josh Black' timestamp='1357593754' post='6114460']
Again, the design of the cards are questionable. And Beelze is STILL an OTK machine that punishes you for stopping it. Mammon feels inferior to Ganashia, despite the fact it gives you a +. Belphae rewards you for simply playing the deck or playing it wrong, both of which are signs of bad design. Abadon being any Lv. 3 or lower Fabled in exchange for discarding another Fabled seems really questionable, given the nature of how the cards work, and it again rewards you for playing the deck wrong or at all. The spell seems mediocre at best, because it's just a +0 and can only return Fableds. Why would I want to return only Fableds when part of the reason they like Avarice is restockign a used extra?
[/quote]I don't see how Beelze is an OTK machine in any way shape or form. But I did give it a minor edit.

I disagree, but I see the reason why you'd say that. Perhaps.

Tell me, Black. How would you describe "Playing the deck wrong"?

I just deleted the spell. If I edited it any further, it would just become a card I've made before.

[Blake]

Not sure if I can really put it into words. It's something that relies on actual knowledge gleaned from using them long enough.

The deck has the capability to break cards even more than they already were, and can use many already list worthy cards to their full potential due to the ability to commit to the field how it can. The deck relies on Special Summoning a lot, but Normal Summons are EXTREMELY important, and each and every one of them must aid you in some realistic, if not physical, way. Hence why Tengu, TGU, and Cat do a ton for the deck, and why Junk Synchron is a potential tech. At that, the deck uses cards like Avarice to go even further with what they can do.

Designing a way for Fableds to be tier without doign it with bad design is almost impossible. The very nature of the deck is to abuse anything it can adequately use to no end. You can easily get Brio, Librarian, and a Tengu when Tengu was at three, and that was with each of the Synchros being a +0 in and of themselves. They also have the ability to summon Quasar for fairly minimal effort, but that requires running a bad variant of the deck to do it consistently or wasting precious space to do it at all.

In the end, Fableds are highly dependant on the ban list. Tengu, TGU, Librarian, Formula, Brionac, Trishula, Goyo, Cat, Avarice, Glow-Up Bulb, and more cards are exploited by the deck, and that's just in its time alive. When those cards were live, the deck had power. As those cards were killed off, the power would fall. The deck itself has all the power it can truly handle, but the cards that it could abuse all hit the list for other reasons.

Even the building of the deck is completely based around cards that are banned and that aren't. When Bulb was alive, you could run it, One for One, Dandylion, Foolish, and sometimes Level Eater. Without Bulb, Foolish is the only one you may ever want, because you don't want to pull Chawas out of your Deck with One for One, which leaves Eater less likely to be alive along with Dandy, whose job is done better by Doppel without the extra dumping methods, and so on. Even then, Foolish is kinda dead because Tour Guide does it better. And you can't really run Lonefire consistently because Spore's not that good in the deck while Glow-Up is amazing in it, leaving you with 2 Plants for Lonefire to grab, instead of 3.

Fableds aren't a deck with its own merits beign the central part of it. They're a deck that exploits everything that it gets its hands on. That is the problem with Fableds, that they don't have enough discard outlets, that they exist only to abuse cards that are already borked, and that each and every normal summon is a completely precious thing, as too many can clog the hand.

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1357595766' post='6114478']
So explain to me how to make fabled playable at the meta level, because from what you're telling me, there's no well designed way to do it.

And there's a serious difference between holding someone to a higher standard and being harsh on them. It's the difference between "I know you're better than this" and "You're not as good as people think you are". The latter of which being the vibe being inferred.

I don't see how Beelze is an OTK machine in any way shape or form. But I did give it a minor edit.

I disagree, but I see the reason why you'd say that. Perhaps.

Tell me, Black. How would you describe "Playing the deck wrong"?

I just deleted the spell. If I edited it any further, it would just become a card I've made before.
[/quote]
And now it's completely bad. Yay, I can -2 myself on top of a -1 in order to -1 my opp, which they can choose. Totally worth it.

Part of why Ganashia's good, beyond Rank 3s and Unicore, is because it can actually be used as a beater, unlike the rest of the deck.

Playing the deck wrong is focusing on discardign way too much, like your cards seem to generalize. See Raven.

[Agro]

> Says there's not enough discard cards
> Says cards are too based around Discard.
:\

and Beelze's main use is for hand control in use with the horsey. The -1's being balanced by the Fabled's plussing.

Do you think it's a good idea for you to choose what card the opponent discards or to make it random?

[Blake]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1357607274' post='6114730']
> Says there's not enough discard cards
> Says cards are too based around Discard.
:\

and Beelze's main use is for hand control in use with the horsey. The -1's being balanced by the Fabled's plussing.

Do you think it's a good idea for you to choose what card the opponent discards or to make it random?
[/quote]
You don't seem to understand.

Pushign for DISCARDDISCARDDISCARD is bad. Cards that require mass discard are an example, or if they just reward the discarding too much. Belphae could turn up to 3 Fableds into a draw that then could +3. This isn't what Fableds want, even though the design is questionable. They want a series of 141 motions. They want outlets like Chawa, not Nozoochee or Raven.

Doesn't change the fact that it focuses on negging you in general, and just seems eh to use over most things. Yes, Fableds can dodge it. It's not 100% awful if you change it, but...

Random's definitely better than them choosing or you choosing.

[AsianGuy1137]

If the someone thinks you're great at designing was referring to me, the specific phrase I used was realistic and at times even balanced. I think the cards he designed to change the power creep of current meta/staples were good. These are more questionable, but I can't say much since I have no experience playing Fabled.

[Agro]

[quote name='Josh Black' timestamp='1357607803' post='6114734']
You don't seem to understand.

Pushign for DISCARDDISCARDDISCARD is bad. Cards that require mass discard are an example, or if they just reward the discarding too much. Belphae could turn up to 3 Fableds into a draw that then could +3. This isn't what Fableds want, even though the design is questionable. They want a series of 141 motions. They want outlets like Chawa, not Nozoochee or Raven.

[b]Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking that through while making these. I've had a headache since Thursday. But that makes sense. [/b]

Doesn't change the fact that it focuses on negging you in general, and just seems eh to use over most things. Yes, Fableds can dodge it. It's not 100% awful if you change it, but...


Random's definitely better than them choosing or you choosing.
[/quote]Obvious main use for it is the horse. Do you think it'd be overdoing it if it added 2 monsters from the Graveyard to the hand?