Philosophical Question about Cloning and Consciousness

[Merci]

This is just a weird thing I wondered while thinking about, well...everything.

 

A scientist (call him Bob) has developed a two-part highly advanced cloning machine, requiring him to step into mA. The machine will then perfectly recreate his neurons into a prepared comatose body within mB. So he steps in, and the machine 'clones' his consciousness into the secondary body. Both men step out.

 

From a logical point of view, since he is 'himself', he will remain in body A - his original body. But at the same time, the cloning will have no differentiations from the original, so from the clone's point of view he will be expecting the exact same thing. So here's the question: where will Bob himself end up?

 

I know it's kind of a silly question with no answer, but it still confuses me. Is there a random chance that he'll somehow end up in the clone's body, despite being himself?

[Zazubat]

It's quite simple isn't it, while you may be ble to clone yourself, with all your features, your other you will think different dependingon its actions. So Bob would stay in body 1. At least that would make most sense.

[Merci]

Yeah, but the clone would [i]also be Bob.[/i] Of course, the Bob clone will change eventually after all passing time, but by your logic, the original Bob should be expecting to stay in his original body - and imagine his reaction when he ends up in the clone body. It's confusing, really. Fom the clone's point of view, it's like his consciousness transferred over to the clone while his body is filled with another consciousness.

[Mehmani]

Let us examine this case from the view of the scientist, Bob, who, having created the technology to clone the human consciousness, would probably have meticulously examined how the experiment would be run. The result of the experiment, provided it is successful, is that you are left with two "Bob"s, each identical in intelligence and experience. Bob's consciousness, his "soul", if you like, will be expecting to stay in his real body. But the trouble is, we have two "Bob"s, both expecting the same thing. This means that the original Bob will emerge from the machine in his own body while the cloned Bob will emerge in a different body, but being the essence of "Bob", he will know that he would be in this other body, having already considered the problem in his mind. This means it probably won't be a problem. Furthermore, even if he had not meditated on the possibilities of the experiment, Bob is an esteemed scientist and would probably work it out for himself once he emerges in a different body. 

 

This does not strike me as the most interesting philosophical question, so I'll think about the ethics too. The cloned human should not have any relationships or have any family, or, if we are to be completely fair, even have a passing friendship/acquaintanceship with anyone. This avoids conflict between the clone and the "origin."

[Agro]

If your consciousness were transferred from one body to another, you wouldn't suddenly "awaken" in a new body.

 

Only the information from one brain would be put into another brain.

 

Your functioning brain would still be the same functioning brain, and therefore the same consciousness, just with different information present.

 

You wouldn't be in the other body unless you physically moved the brain from one body to another.

 

[hr]

 

This is a similar question to: If you were to have all the information in your brain switched with Person B's brain, and after the operation, you could choose whether yours or Person B's body would be tortured, while the other was given $1000, which body would you choose to be tortured?

[Merci]

If your consciousness were transferred from one body to another, you wouldn't suddenly "awaken" in a new body.

 

Only the information from one brain would be put into another brain.

 

Your functioning brain would still be the same functioning brain, and therefore the same consciousness, just with different information present.

 

You wouldn't be in the other body unless you physically moved the brain from one body to another.

 

I know that, but like I said - the clone would be expecting [i]the exact same thing[/i] until he suddenly finds himself in a different body. So from clone Bob's point of view, his consciousness [i]did[/i] transfer. The hypothetical machine I presented 'copies' the his brain and accurately rewrites the neurons into the clone mind. So technically, his brain was transferred to another body, but at the same time in his own.

 

Mihails summed it up pretty nicely. Bob should be prepared for the possibility of being within a clone body and not his natural one, and thus should be capable of adapting to it. If not, massive stress and confusion ensue. In any case, it wouldn't take long for the two entities to diverge in personalities, but they share the exact same memories and experiences. THAT'S what I'm trying to wrap my head around.

[Agro]

The problem here is that you're referring to "Bob" as if the information inside his brain is him.

 

Whatever experiences being "Bob" after a transfer won't be Bob, it'll be a copy of Bob.

 

The two consciousnesses will still be the same, except both will only remember being the other.

 

It's not like you move into someone else and they move into you, it's that someone else becomes you and you become someone else.

 

You're only copying if the brain isn't moved. If you go to sleep for an operation where this is done, you won't wake up in a new body, you'll wake up with a new mind.

[Merci]

I know that, I was just referring to what it would be like from clone Bob's own point of view. Technically, it would seem as though his consciousness had somehow transferred from the original into the clone - even though his point of existence began at that very point and the original's consciousness still very well exists in his original body.

[Mehmani]

A copy of Bob is Bob, for all intents and purposes. The copy will feel the same, think the same and expect the same as the real Bob. Therefore, if you are copying Bob's mind the moment before he enters the machine, the copy will be thinking exactly the same thing - "I'm Bob, I expect to get out of here in my body."

[Aix]

A copy of Bob is Bob, for all intents and purposes. The copy will feel the same, think the same and expect the same as the real Bob. Therefore, if you are copying Bob's mind the moment before he enters the machine, the copy will be thinking exactly the same thing - "I'm Bob, I expect to get out of here in my body."

Actually, I'm sure there'll be one place where the real Bob gets out and the other for the fake Bob to get out, so they wouldn't be confused as to who is the original Bob unless for some retarded reason they decided to shuffle where each comes out.

[Agro]

But the thing is that it won't be Bob. It'll be Bob(1). It'll just think it's Bob.

 

Since you could copy Bob, but not erase Bob and Bob(1) would still think it's Bob, even though Bob still exists and is obviously still Bob.

[Aix]

Bob clone will feel as though he is Bob, but he will simply have to come to terms with the fact that he has no mommy.

[Merci]

A copy of Bob is Bob, for all intents and purposes. The copy will feel the same, think the same and expect the same as the real Bob. Therefore, if you are copying Bob's mind the moment before he enters the machine, the copy will be thinking exactly the same thing - "I'm Bob, I expect to get out of here in my body."

 

EXACTLY! That's what I just can't understand.

 

When clone Bob exits compartment mB, he'll know straightaway that he isn't the original due to the different body he possesses. Also, if he had failed to ponder this philosophic question, then he would be baffled and find it very difficult to accept that he's really the clone.

 

Let's say one of you entered the machine (in mA) and found yourself in mB - you would be confused, wouldn't you? Through deductive reasoning, you [i]should[/i] exit the machine in your own body, in mA, but instead [b]there is a chance that you might end up as the clone.[/b] Because you are a consciousness, and you're cloned, there's this chance that [i]you[/i] as [i]you[/i] might end up the clone with someone completely alike you as the original. The consciousness hasn't been transferred or anything, just copied, and this isn't the same kind of chance as 'flip a coin, heads or tails'. I'm just trying to comprehend what this 'chance' is. There IS no chance, but it happens anyway, and you MIGHT turn out to end up in the clone body. For sanity reasons, I prefer to call it 'fifty-fifty chance', but even that doesn't make sense.

 

From your own point of view, you step into the machine and exit as yourself - that's the logical way of thinking things. But by completely copying your consciousness into a spare body, that person would be thinking the exact same thing and be surprised when it turns out not to.

 

Again, I'm just trying to understand this 'chance' that you might end up as the clone.

[Aix]

EXACTLY! That's what I just can't understand.

 

When clone Bob exits compartment mB, he'll know straightaway that he isn't the original due to the different body he possesses. Also, if he had failed to ponder this philosophic question, then he would be baffled and find it very difficult to accept that he's really the clone.

 

Let's say one of you entered the machine (in mA) and found yourself in mB - you would be confused, wouldn't you? Through deductive reasoning, you should exit the machine in your own body, in mA, but instead there is a chance that you might end up as the clone. Because you are a consciousness, and you're cloned, there's this chance that you as you might end up the clone with someone completely alike you as the original. The consciousness hasn't been transferred or anything, just copied, and this isn't the same kind of chance as 'flip a coin, heads or tails'. I'm just trying to comprehend what this 'chance' is. There IS no chance, but it happens anyway, and you MIGHT turn out to end up in the clone body. For sanity reasons, I prefer to call it 'fifty-fifty chance', but even that doesn't make sense.

 

From your own point of view, you step into the machine and exit as yourself - that's the logical way of thinking things. But by completely copying your consciousness into a spare body, that person would be thinking the exact same thing and be surprised when it turns out not to.

 

Again, I'm just trying to understand this 'chance' that you might end up as the clone.

I can't understand the reason as to which your consciousness would transfer or whatever you mean, the clone would simply have a consciousness that is identical to yours, but your consciousness would not transfer/change, the original you will still be you because you are still the original. The clone would think that the consciousness transferred when in truth it did not, but deep down it will feel that because its brain will be exactly identical. I pity the clone as:

he will simply have to come to terms with the fact that he has no mommy.

[Merci]

I can't understand the reason as to which your consciousness would transfer or whatever you mean, the clone would simply have a consciousness that is identical to yours, but your consciousness would not transfer/change, the original you will still be you because you are still the original. [b]The clone would think that the consciousness transferred when in truth it did not, but deep down it will feel that because its brain will be exactly identical.[/b]

 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What's it like FOR THE CLONE? To suddenly find that all its calculations were wrong.

 

You're thinking of the clone as another person. That's a mistake. In that one moment, they are still [i]you[/i] with no deviative or difference. You are [b]the consciousness[/b], but in that one moment, he is also [b]the consciousness.[/b] From his point of view, it will appear as though he'd transferred, although he would know the truth that he became the clone pretty quickly. [b][i]He thinks like you, acts like you, talks like you, and IS you in every possible way except for physical differences. This clone IS you, in that one point, and expects the exact same thing.[/i][/b]

 

Because your consciousness was copied and also became his consciousness, pretend that you are the clone...no, it will feel as if you've become the clone, when in fact you haven't.

 

And so, because your consciousnesses are virtually identical - as he had experienced the exact same past and memories and feelings that you had - what if YOU ended up as the clone? After living your [i]entire life[/i], you suddenly find yourself in a clone body - and it has all been rendered invalid...

 

Imagine this - you're living your life right now, and all of a sudden you find yourself in a pod, wherein some crazed scientist tells you he perfectly cloned your consciousness at a moment from someone else in the world. Your past has just been rendered invalid. It could happen to anyone. A person's past could be rendered invalid at any given moment if they find that their consciousnesses has been cloned into a separate body.

 

Therefore, there's a chance you might end up as the clone. That's all I want to know about. Can I assign numbers to this 'chance'? What sort of chance is it? It's like 0:100, but it can't possibly be since both results are the same, in that one moment.

 

It's just...confusing, to me. All of it. The entire concept. That's all.

[Aix]

Ohhhhh... so your saying that the consciousness of the clone is stolen from somewhere? If that is what you mean, if my consciousness was removed from me and put somewhere else, then what would inhabit my body? No, I don't think I would be stolen into another body. The consciousness of the clone would a. come from the deceased b. come into existence (from nowhere or from nothingness) or c. the clone would not have a consciousness as it is not a natural being.

[Merci]

Ohhhhh... so your saying that the consciousness of the clone is stolen from somewhere? If that is what you mean, if my consciousness was removed from me and put somewhere else, then what would inhabit my body? No, I don't think I would be stolen into another body. The consciousness of the clone would a. come from the deceased b. come into existence (from nowhere or from nothingness) or c. the clone would not have a consciousness as it is not a natural being.

 

No, I wasn't.

 

I meant exactly what the title says. The consciousness is cloned. Copied. Replicated to the neurotic level. I'm not sure how you concluded it was stolen.

 

The consciousness of the clone would just come into existence, from nothingness, a full replica of our own. But because it is such a perfect replica, they share the exact same experiences and memories that we do. By all purposes, that clone [i]is you[/i] in every sense of the term, until it finds out otherwise, at which point it begins going down a different path from you.

 

But you know...it is stolen in a way. Think of it like this; [i]you steal Bob's brain and place it in Clarice's body. But the brain you stole still remains in Bob's body due to some paradox, so now they both have the same brain.[/i] When you think hard about it, it's just not simple. You could be either one of those brains, but you can't be both and you can't choose. Maybe one way of wording it is; what decides which body you end up in? Logically, you stay in your own, but since that mind of thinking is copied by the clone, they should also be assuming that and end up proven false.

[Aix]

So you have somehow found a way to not only copy and paste the brain, but the consciousness as well? If it is copy and paste, then, you should still be you, but if you metaphorically cut and paste, well... you would be gone... it'd be a whole 'nother consciousness/being/person, a parallel you, like a parallel universe, but not you.

[Merci]

Yeah. And I wanna know what dictates who [i][b]we[/b][/i] as we become.