Thunder Sea Horse

[Blake]

 

To 0 Pls

 

Card does way too much for way too little, and its restriction is laughable. It can set up an entire game with only a single search and it just doesn't do anything for the game. It's an awfully designed card that basically says "The rich get richer", because every copy you use of this card in a game is when you're either in a place to not be heavily hurt by the drawback (IE: You have any sort of usable field from the turn before, and don't need to produce an answer), or you have nothing better to do that turn, and this isn't even talking about turn 1 plays.

[Suibon]

There is the tempo restriction, which cramps on Hunder swarm attempts, and that has to be respected.

[Superdoopertrooper]

It still puzzles me why folks ask for things to go straight from 3 to 0, when hitting it in any other way could still substantially hamper the deck it's mainly used in anyway, while leaving the card pool larger.

 

Semi-Limiting this card would remove its self interaction option (which was never particularly great anyway because of the quite severe loss in tempo it causes) and of course also reduce the chance of having it in the first place. Banning this card would be asinine and is entirely out of the question.

[Blake]

... Do you guys see what this does for the deck?

I'm talking about ideally. I don't even remotely believe hunders are tier, but this card is all around awful design that is horrible for the game. Wow, you trade 1 turn then you're set for the game. How horrible.

It doesn't stop Hunders' tempo at all, at least if you're not a twit that can't play the deck correctly.

If a deck needs shittily designed cards such as this, the deck deserves death.

[Suibon]

... Do you guys see what this does for the deck?

 

I do -- in exchange for a turn, you gain materials for a Rank 4 worth 2 Exceed Material. That's pretty significant tempo loss -- compare C Ar Dc Ard drawing 2 cards during Main Phase 1 in exchange for itself and ending the turn without getting to use said cards.

 

 

It doesn't stop Hunders' tempo at all, at least if you're not a twit that can't play the deck correctly.

 

I don't play Hunder, but it's pretty hard to get around Thunder Sea Horse denying the user all Special Summoning for the turn.

 

 

I'm talking about ideally.

 

 

I'm also talking in ideal terms -- only that I also recognize tempo and resource losses in all its protean forms as actual balancing factors, something that I doubt you see on the level with me. Not every plus is made equal, you know.

 

 

If a deck needs shittily designed cards such as this, the deck deserves death.

 

And I think the same -- but Thunder Sea Horse does not deserve the ire you give it.

[Blake]

I do -- in exchange for a turn, you gain materials for a Rank 4 worth 2 Exceed Material. That's pretty significant tempo loss -- compare C Ar Dc Ard drawing 2 cards during Main Phase 1 in exchange for itself and ending the turn without getting to use said cards.

Except you're not ending your turn immediately, you're getting exactly the cards you want, and all you have to do is give up 1 turn to be ready to play an entire game, just because you happened to draw it.
 

I don't play Hunder, but it's pretty hard to get around Thunder Sea Horse denying the user all Special Summoning for the turn.

Now tell me how trading that one turn "slows your tempo" when you're, most likely, pairing it with Duality and/or Cardcar?
 
 
 

I'm also talking in ideal terms -- only that I also recognize tempo and resource losses in all its protean forms as actual balancing factors, something that I doubt you see on the level with me. Not every plus is made equal, you know.

... And this isn't on the level of Cardcar, it's above, hence why this is the one that should be @0, not the innocent car.
 
 

And I think the same -- but Thunder Sea Horse does not deserve the ire you give it. 

It's an awfully designed card that can, in the run, singlehandedly win games. I don't hate it, it's not anger, I just think it's awfully designed and deserves to die, because it does too much for drawing even 1 copy.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Let's get some lulzy things about Seahorse out of the way:

 

- Discarding Seahorse when you have 1 AAA in hand to search 2 more gives you 3 turns worth of Ranks 4's (assuming you have Ma/Pa) and 5 Rank 4's if you also have Recycling batteries in hand or draw it within those next 3 turns.

 

- Discard Seahorse and then summon TKRO to combine control and set-up for future plays.

 

- Discard Seahorse to search 2 more Seahorse, and so on.

 

The theme as a whole is quite potent, especially in a hypothetical nerfed meta where Mermails, Fire Fist, E-Dragons and Prophecy have been nuked. In such an environment, it would indeed be plausible to consider hitting this card because it is undoubtedly the center piece of the deck and not only gives it consistency, but does it at a +1. However, in no way shape or form can it be considered ban worthy. Limiting this card would be a severe hit and certainly more than enough to tame the deck to well within reason.

 

Edit: Also, Card Car and Duality are mostly sub-par in Thunder Xyz from my quite extensive experience with them (piloted the deck to 1580 rating on DN last format), because they over-saturate the inability to special summon, which the deck needs to do on a constant basis to put pressure on the opponent and ultimately, win. Packing your deck full of dualities and cars just means they'll be sitting there dead when you need to make your Rank 4's, which will be almost every turn after you've used your first Seahorse.

[evilfusion]

It's bad design on the basis that it's only as good as the targets...and there are very few targets, but they're very good. Notably Pahunder, Mahunder, and Batteryman AAA. Combined with Duality and/or Card Car D, the side effects are minimal. And doing all 3 in one move is insanely good. Discard Sea Horse, grab AAA, use Duality, grab whatever you want. Set a card if applicable, then Normal Summon Card Car, send it and draw 2. Your turn ends, but you got a +2 and set-up a solid Rank 4 play.

 

However, I don't particularly care about it enough to want it banned.

[Suibon]

Except you're not ending your turn immediately, you're getting exactly the cards you want, and all you have to do is give up 1 turn to be ready to play an entire game, just because you happened to draw it.

 

Give a knowledgeable and/or lucky opponent his turn, and he will work his ass off to ensure that he kicks them Hunder to hell and back.

 

 

 ... And this isn't on the level of Cardcar, it's above, hence why this is the one that should be @0, not the innocent car.

 

While using Sea Horse gives the user more leeway to do stuff than is the case with Car D Car D, you still have to wait your turn to do serious shit, and that turn buys time for the opponent to do his shit.

 

 

Now tell me how trading that one turn "slows your tempo" when you're, most likely, pairing it with Duality and/or Cardcar?

 

I quote Superdoopertrooper on this one --

 

Also, Card Car and Duality are mostly sub-par in Thunder Xyz from my quite extensive experience with them (piloted the deck to 1580 rating on DN last format), because they over-saturate the inability to special summon, which the deck needs to do on a constant basis to put pressure on the opponent and ultimately, win. Packing your deck full of dualities and cars just means they'll be sitting there dead when you need to make your Rank 4's, which will be almost every turn after you've used your first Seahorse.

[.:pyramid:.]

I love opening this, duality, carcard, roar/trag/gorz turn one. And that happens a lot

[Agro]

Give a knowledgeable and/or lucky opponent his turn, and he will work his ass off to ensure that he kicks them Hunder to hell and back.

 

Give an unskilled player a broken card and he won't have to do anything to win with it. Thunder Seahorse should die. You're speaking ideally, but that's all it is: an ideal, ignorant of reality.

 

While using Sea Horse gives the user more leeway to do stuff than is the case with Car D Car D, you still have to wait your turn to do serious shit, and that turn buys time for the opponent to do his shit.

 

You don't even play this game if you think a person losing a turn to setup is in any way detrimental to their chances of winning.

 

I quote Superdoopertrooper on this one --

AND THAT IS WHY YOU FAIL.

[Suibon]

You don't even play this game if you think a person losing a turn to setup is in any way detrimental to their chances of winning.

 

Losing tempo to set-up is actually detrimental to the user's chances of winning and is thus a potential balancing factor that must be weighed in against other factors and that must be given recognition if we are to proceed. To illustrate my point --

 

Imagine if Tour Guide made you wait till your next Main Phase to summon a Level 3 Fiend. Would it still be the greatest instant Rank 3 vehicle in YGO, or a hopelessly shitty card?

 

On the flip side -- imagine if Ca R D C Ard made it possible for you to use the cards you draw by its effect, without instantly going to the End Phase. Would it be the same card, or would it be vastly improved?

[Agro]

Yes, it's a balancing effect, it doesn't mean it can't be broken for doing too much.

[Suibon]

AND THAT IS WHY YOU FAIL.

 

I don't quite understand this hostility you have to Superdoopertrooper since I just returned here, but as I see it he gives a pretty accurate picture of what might happen if you mind the plussing and set-up and not give a fuck about tempo.

[Agro]

I don't quite understand this hostility you have to Superdoopertrooper since I just returned here, but as I see it he gives a pretty accurate picture of what might happen if you mind the plussing and set-up and not give a fuck about tempo.

His quote ignored the fact that you're 10x more likely to activate all their effects-or at least 2 of them-on the same turn, minimizing their restrictions to the same turn.

 

That's why I "have something against him", he tends to make statements ignorant of the reality of the game.

[Suibon]

Yes, it's a balancing effect, it doesn't mean it can't be broken for doing too much.

 

And I concur -- Spellbook Judgment Day gives you monumentally huge plusses and a lot of set-up for a lot of Spellbooks and High Priestess, all for throwing away your hand and giving away the turn, making considerations about opposing counters and losing tempo to set-up irrelevant.

 

Thunder Sea Horse is not Spellbook Judgment Day.

[Agro]

Spellbook Judgment Day doesn't restrict you at all.

 

It rewards you a ridiculous amount for playing the cards you were already going to play. It doesn't mean you "throw away the turn" in the slightest.

 

Also, why are you comparing Thunder Seahorse and Spellbook Judgment Day? Seahorse has restrictions. Judgment Day doesn't.