DEBATE: Thunderf00t VS. Gman! Atheist VS. Creationist! (DP)

[Madsen]

@kyng it's very much a vocal minority kinda deal, as are of these kinds of things, most normal people don't give a fuck whom believes what and carry on with their life as usual and it's because of this that people that oppose this seem like the majority even though they're not

[Aix]

@kyng it's very much a vocal minority kinda deal, as are of these kinds of things, most normal people don't give a fuck whom believes what and carry on with their life as usual and it's because of this that people that oppose this seem like the majority even though they're not

This. Vocal minorities are basically in every sort of perceived group and create all the stereotypes, which reflects badly on everyone else D:

 

Why are Atheists persistent on goading religious believers, and vice versa?

If I were to really say why those vocal minorities do what they do, then, atheists - mainly due to thoughts of education, and also because of certain religious groups and people like Westboro which cause problems. Schools should teach evolution not creationism for reasons Agro stated.

 

As for religious believers, there's the fact that some believe you'll go to hell if you aren't religious and/or they are doing good if they convert you.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

you don't necessarily need to respond, but building off of this, there is a sort of humanist, perhaps selfish idea behind the thought of a god. The basic idea is that human's are somehow special enough to deserve a god to watch after them, as if in a universe of possibly infinite species, many likely sentient, we're the center of attention. Food for thought.

And in line with that thought, who's to say we ARE the only species that have a god watching over us? Perhaps God watches over all of them, or heck, maybe there are gods for each planet with sentient life.

 

Also I never really knew what Deism was until now. Interesting....

 

You know, for the most part this is the most civil talk about religion and atheism on the internet I've seen.

 

I have to say, Aix, you seem to be the type to try and force your non-religion down everyone's throat. I'm sure you're just meaning to debate but it really sounds like you're saying "You make no sense, you shouldn't believe in God because it's illogical."

[Aix]

And in line with that thought, who's to say we ARE the only species that have a god watching over us? Perhaps God watches over all of them, or heck, maybe there are gods for each planet with sentient life.

But then, you're drawing out speculation without any proof to back it up. We can't act or do anything on this kind of speculation. The burden of proof lies on the claim.

 

I didn't feel like saying anything before when you brought it up, but I'd like to ask now: Why do you think there is a God who created the world and just abandoned his creation? Why not the Big Bang theory which, while is merely a theory, does serve to draw a possible, logical conclusion and explanation for many things that astronomers have observed. I will not say the universe most definitely was created in the big bang, but I will say that it is the most probable theory we have today and can be a placeholder for until we find evidence otherwise. The theory also lets scientists create and then test out other theories and hypotheses.

 

I have to say, Aix, you seem to be the type to try and force your non-religion down everyone's throat. I'm sure you're just meaning to debate but it really sounds like you're saying "You make no sense, you shouldn't believe in God because it's illogical."

While I won't say you shouldn't believe in God simply for the fact that faith has it's own benefits as I have recognized before and trying to change could very well cause more harm than good, I will say that I do find the concept of a benevolent and omnipotent being illogical and flawed. To me, you do honestly make no sense. I will be honest and state what I think and what my opinion is, at the very least, I will on the Internet where you are free to avert your eyes if it offends you or makes you uncomfortable.

 

Shoot me, but I'd like to point out that, quite honestly, African people have dark skin. Or at least I think they do.

[Northern Sage]

And in line with that thought, who's to say we ARE the only species that have a god watching over us? Perhaps God watches over all of them, or heck, maybe there are gods for each planet with sentient life.

 

Also I never really knew what Deism was until now. Interesting....

 

You know, for the most part this is the most civil talk about religion and atheism on the internet I've seen.

 

I have to say, Aix, you seem to be the type to try and force your non-religion down everyone's throat. I'm sure you're just meaning to debate but it really sounds like you're saying "You make no sense, you shouldn't believe in God because it's illogical."

Because no one else here is doing similar or anything.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

But then, you're drawing out speculation without any proof to back it up. We can't act or do anything on this kind of speculation. The burden of proof lies on the claim.

 

I didn't feel like saying anything before when you brought it up, but I'd like to ask now: Why do you think there is a God who created the world and just abandoned his creation? Why not the Big Bang theory which, while is merely a theory, does serve to draw a possible, logical conclusion and explanation for many things that astronomers have observed. I will not say the universe most definitely was created in the big bang, but I will say that it is the most probable theory we have today and can be a placeholder for until we find evidence otherwise. The theory also lets scientists create and then test out other theories and hypotheses.

 

While I won't say you shouldn't believe in God simply for the fact that faith has it's own benefits as I have recognized before and trying to change could very well cause more harm than good, I will say that I do find the concept of a benevolent and omnipotent being illogical and flawed. To me, you do honestly make no sense. I will be honest and state what I think and what my opinion is, at the very least, I will on the Internet where you are free to avert your eyes if it offends you or makes you uncomfortable.

 

Shoot me, but I'd like to point out that, quite honestly, African people have dark skin. Or at least I think they do.

How many things that we accept as fact today had no real proof in the past? We can't dismiss something entirely because there isn't any current proof. And we get that proof after curiosity and speculation has taken hold.

 

I never said that God was a perfect being, they may have created it on a whim, or because they wanted to have something in the universe with life. As for abandoning it. It's not abandoning, it's letting it grow. Would you say a parent abandons their child when that child grows older and moves out?

As for the Big Bang. Where did THAT start from? A random occurrence with no trigger? My belief is that God started the Big Bang. because as much as science loves to say "Who created God" one way or another, there was a beginning, something out of nothing. Why not God?

 

I understand that, and it doesn't bother me personally, however I wanted to make sure you were aware that to some you could come off as aggressive and insulting.

 

Because no one else here is doing similar or anything.

Yes they are, but some seem to be more than others. Mostly I said that as I just said so I knew they were aware of the tone.

[Just Crouton]

Why are Atheists persistent on goading religious believers, and vice versa?

 

I should note that Amazing E-Begger and Thunderfoot get their views and ad revenue off dissing religion (and feminism.)

 

People on YouTube rip apart the same topic over and over as long as they have a fanbase who wants more of it.

 

I'm curious as to why people are so bothered about what other people believe in?

 

Insecurity that someone thinks differently from them?

 

Personally, while I find religion to be silly and needlessly abstract, I do respect the people around me who don't, and have prayed with others out of respect for them, and not their faith.

 

 

I don't wish to watch the video because I'm sure I'll be greeted to two hateful morons arguing without an ending on YouTube.

 

Summary: A group of atheists gang up on moron, moron attempts to brown-nose, moron makes fun of Thunderfoot's accent, group of atheists continue to bait him, moron makes ThunderCats reference for no reason.

 

Everyone looked like an idiot, though it sounded like Thunderfoot was quiet when the other guys strayed away from the debate to dog on G-Man.

[Aix]

How many things that we accept as fact today had no real proof in the past? We can't dismiss something entirely because there isn't any current proof. And we get that proof after curiosity and speculation has taken hold.

 

I never said that God was a perfect being, they may have created it on a whim, or because they wanted to have something in the universe with life. As for abandoning it. It's not abandoning, it's letting it grow. Would you say a parent abandons their child when that child grows older and moves out?

As for the Big Bang. Where did THAT start from? A random occurrence with no trigger? My belief is that God started the Big Bang. because as much as science loves to say "Who created God" one way or another, there was a beginning, something out of nothing. Why not God?

One can entertain the notion of something where there is no proof, one can experiment to find proof of something, that is called a hypothesis and that is what drives science, but assuming or believing something when there is no proof is completely different.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

One can entertain the notion of something where there is no proof, one can experiment to find proof of something, that is called a hypothesis and that is what drives science, but assuming or believing something when there is no proof is completely different.

That is true, but I mostly was pointing out the flaw in saying that it's impossible which so many tend to do. But that still doesn't answer what I said about the Big Bang. The fact of the matter is, at some point there had to have been something that was created out of nothing. Even if you say the Big Bang, what caused it? What created the things that caused it? At some point in time, there was nothing, and then there was something. Science cannot explain that, so what's wrong with saying that God did it?

Keep in mind I'm not saying the science is wrong, I believe in the science. Evolution happened, science is fact. But science came from somewhere.

[Aix]

I could equally point out the possibility that there was some prior universe that seriously fucked up and the Universe imploded. There was something about messing with wormholes could somehow cause a serious spacetime fuck up. Maybe time is a loop and resets itself like this. Sure, that's a cool possibility, but there is no proof behind it. At the moment, it is a hypothesis and it is incorrect to take a hypothesis as fact. Sure, believing in God causes no harm. No one is this thread has said it does. However my first question is what prompted you to believe there is some sort of God.

As for what created the big bang, the answer is the very same as "what created God". There are plenty of things science can't yet explain, but I'm not going to believe magic caused any yet to be explained things.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I could equally point out the possibility that there was some prior universe that seriously f***ed up and the Universe imploded. There was something about messing with wormholes could somehow cause a serious spacetime f*** up. Maybe time is a loop and resets itself like this. Sure, that's a cool possibility, but there is no proof behind it. At the moment, it is a hypothesis and it is incorrect to take a hypothesis as fact. Sure, believing in God causes no harm. No one is this thread has said it does. However my first question is what prompted you to believe there is some sort of God.

As for what created the big bang, the answer is the very same as "what created God". There are plenty of things science can't yet explain, but I'm not going to believe magic caused any yet to be explained things.

That's the point, no matter what you say, there is no way to avoid the fact that there had to be at some point something that was created from nothing. Especially if you go by science, there HAD to be a beginning, some catalyst that started things. Even the prior universe wormhole theory had to start somewhere.

I believe there is a God...because it feels logical to me. That there is something that purposefully created and shaped a world to be inhabited by living creatures. All of the science working the way it does, it seems illogical to think it just happened.

[Aix]

You feel so. That is something that cannot be really argued, but I will point out that the chances for everything to fall into place perfectly are actually high. If you looked at it, Earth just happened to have the perfect conditions to host life. It is a miraculous success. However, if you look at just how many failures there are, the chance is there. Who knows if there were billions of times the universe imploded because it simply didn't work.

Anyway, into something else because that can't really be proved either, and is merely an inference.

We see that energy can neither be created nor destroyed and E=mc², by that law, wouldn't it be impossible for stuff to be created? I'm out of my bounds here, however, I have no significant physics knowledge.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

You feel so. That is something that cannot be really argued, but I will point out that the chances for everything to fall into place perfectly are actually high. If you looked at it, Earth just happened to have the perfect conditions to host life. It is a miraculous success. However, if you look at just how many failures there are, the chance is there. Who knows if there were billions of times the universe imploded because it simply didn't work.

Anyway, into something else because that can't really be proved either, and is merely an inference.

We see that energy can neither be created nor destroyed and E=mc², by that law, wouldn't it be impossible for stuff to be created? I'm out of my bounds here, however, I have no significant physics knowledge.

That's true, but even the idea that those planets just happened to come into existence seems too illogical for me to consider.

I don't know the science behind it well, but why aren't there new planets exploding into existence now if they just happened instead of being created? (Honestly wondering if there is an answer.)

 

Yes, and that helps my point just as much as, or more than, yours. It's impossible for stuff, according to science, to be created. But since there has to have been some beginning where there was nothing and something was created... It logically couldn't be just science but something more than that.

[Aix]

That's true, but even the idea that those planets just happened to come into existence seems too illogical for me to consider.

I don't know the science behind it well, but why aren't there new planets exploding into existence now if they just happened instead of being created? (Honestly wondering if there is an answer.)

... No. I'm sorry, but please don't say something is illogical, especially not "too logical for you to consider", when there are scientific explanations. And there are new stars and planets being formed all the time.

 

there has to have been some beginning where there was nothing

And on what do you base this claim? The big bang theory simply claims that at one point, the entire universe was contained in a single point. Not, poof, an explosion of matter. The big bang isn't an explosion either.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

... No. I'm sorry, but please don't say something is illogical, especially not "too logical for you to consider", when there are scientific explanations. And there are new stars and planets being formed all the time.

 

And on what do you base this claim? The big bang theory simply claims that at one point, the entire universe was contained in a single point. Not, poof, an explosion of matter. The big bang isn't an explosion either.

Well the problem is, there is no real proof as to HOW they came into existence, not at the start. Because science itself claims something can't come from nothing.

 

And I base this claim on what's obvious. Okay fine. but then that means the universe existed just because it was there? How is it logical that it just was there, according to science? I don't think you're understanding my point.

Logically and scientifically, there had to be a point where it was created, it can't simply always be there. Science contradicts itself on this very important point. It says things can't be created, yet there had to be a point where it was created for it to exist.

[Sunn O)))]

And I base this claim on what's obvious. Okay fine. but then that means the God existed just because he was there? How is it logical that he just was there, according to religion? I don't think you're understanding my point.

Logically and religiously, there had to be a point where he was created, he can't simply always be there. Religion contradicts itself on this very important point. It says God can't be created, yet there had to be a point where God was created for him to exist.

[Aix]

Are you saying that time has a beginning? Is that what you are claiming? There is no proof for or against so you cannot state it as a fact.

Can time not stretch infinitely to either side of the spectrum or be a loop? Time isn't rigid, you know. We have proven that a powerful force such as gravity can affect it.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

 

And I base this claim on what's obvious. Okay fine. but then that means the God existed just because he was there? How is it logical that he just was there, according to religion? I don't think you're understanding my point.

Logically and religiously, there had to be a point where he was created, he can't simply always be there. Religion contradicts itself on this very important point. It says God can't be created, yet there had to be a point where God was created for him to exist.

 

Wow, it's really hard to reply when it's like this. I was tempted not to respond because it's really rude way of responding in my opinion but oh well.

Okay...  I was talking about the science. According to science, things can't just be. Which is why it seems like the only explanation is something beyond science existed. I was ONLY talking about science. If you follow the rules of science, then it would imply that the universe couldn't have been, it would have to be something created from nothing.

I'm explaining why I believe in God. Because it only seems logical that, if science says it can't be created, then there must be something that can be above science.

[Aix]

Wow, it's really hard to reply when it's like this.
Okay...  I was talking about the science. According to science, things can't just be. Which is why it seems like the only explanation is something beyond science existed. I was ONLY talking about science. If you follow the rules of science, then it would imply that the universe couldn't have been, it would have to be something created from nothing.
I'm explaining why I believe in God. Because it only seems logical that, if science says it can't be created, then there must be something that can be above science.

Or there's some laws of physics that we don't quite understand yet. That's usually the case. The scientifically accepted laws of physics get rewritten all the time with new discoveries. You can't just go assuming things are a certain way, especially a way that is inconsistent with everything else, except for assuming that there is something you don't yet understand.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Or there's some laws of physics that we don't quite understand yet. That's usually the case. The scientifically accepted laws of physics get rewritten all the time with new discoveries. You can't just go assuming things are a certain way, especially a way that is inconsistent with everything else, except for assuming that there is something you don't yet understand.

So you're telling me you believe God doesn't exist, because we haven't figured out what the actual truth is? Because that's what it sounds like.

"God doesn't exist, I don't know how things happened but what I do know is it wasn't God."?

You're also assuming things are a certain way you realize right?

And it's not inconsistent, because there is no proof of any other way the universe first came into being. How can something be inconsistent with unknown and inconsistent information?

[Andx]

We see that energy can neither be created nor destroyed and E=mc², by that law, wouldn't it be impossible for stuff to be created? I'm out of my bounds here, however, I have no significant physics knowledge.

 

I've been lurking and don't really intend to get into the full debate of things, (I'm both a Christian and a lover of physics/science/trying to understand how stuff works so I could go on forever and ever on this kind of stuff) but I saw this and had to jump in for physics stuffz.

 

According to physics matter and energy cannot be destroyed or created and that formula establishes that matter and energy can in fact be converted into one another but there is never a net gain or loss during that process. Nothing ever just disappears. That's also what would create severe complications if we ever traveled at or near the speed of light as we'd start converting mass into matter or vice versa. Like you could literally convert yourself into energy which would kinda suck.

 

Interestingly enough religion and science agree on this point as God is stated to be eternal, without beginning or end. So look we have a little common ground. Both areas agree stuff has to have always existed.

[Aix]

I'm not actually saying it's impossible for Him, or at least the version you prescribe to, to exist. There is no proof either way. However, I am refuting any proof you bring to the table because I see fallacies in them. There is no proof God exists. If you have proof, then tell us.

Again, you have not answered the possibility that time is simply infinite.

EDIT: But Monocle Dig, if he always existed, did he just sit there until he decided to create the Universe, or do you believe the Universe always existed as well?

[Sunn O)))]

Funny how all this stems from a collection of tales made by ancient desert people.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Well, no there is not definite proof I will never deny that. I just am saying why I believe in the possibility of God. You asked why I do, I answered. Because it seems logical that the only way the world could've happened is if an outside force created it.

 

As for time. Yes, time is infinite, but matter can't be created by time alone. Something had to either always exist, or be created by something that always existed.. 

[D.A._Sakuyamon]

Again, you have not answered the possibility that time is simply infinite.

 

 

A tad off topic but if time is infinite then that means anything that can happen within the laws of this universe will happen infinitely. Including this very discussion.