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Pro-Choice, or Pro-Life?

Arekku_Koro

By Arekku_Koro
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  • 2 months later...
Cin Newbie

Cin

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I'm on the fence really, because its hard to know when life begins exactly, and some cases the foetus must be terminated to save the mothers. EGL some countries are experience negative population growth, UK is close to also, (Without immigrants we'd be screwed) they either encourage birth or migration. I'd probably be pro-life if the pathetic reason was life style based and from a really stupid mistake made (such as in some cases of teenage pregnancies), but pro-choice if it was vital the foetus was terminated. I'm not gonna into Pro-Natalism Vs Anti-Natalism as an extension of the argument.

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「tea.leaf」 Newbie

「tea.leaf」

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Pro-choice.

 

1. The process of giving birth is extremely painful, and I think the woman deserves the right to choose whether or not to endure the pain of labor and child rearing.

 

2. The woman may not have been impregnated by consent, so she shouldn't have to bear responsibility for something outside of her control.

 

3. The world has too many people in it already, but this might soon change as the previous generation dies out. In any case, we don't need more people, unless they're women.

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Wyhe Newbie

Wyhe

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I believe that every human has a right over their own problems & that includes whether she wants a baby or not. The world nowadays can barely support the population of 6 billion+ people, so sacrifices need to be made in order to save the masses.

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silverlighted Newbie

silverlighted

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[edit: all future usage of the term fetus, I was also referring to an embryo as well, my mistake]

 

Hmm, it's hard for me to actually post an argument to argue against abortion...I guess it's easier to point out why something it's not okay by arguing against reasons for why it is okay. And since the majority of the posts here seem to disagree with me, that's alot to quote.

 

But, let's see, I guess I'd argue under the idea that the fetus is a living being.

Now assuming a person agrees with that, I would say that it'd be inconsistent to support abortion, that is, assuming you believe in the sanctity of human life, which I would hope so, but that's a different argument entirely. If that's the case, it doesn't matter how much good comes from the act of abortion. I don't care about what it does for overpopulation or reducing the existence of unfit and unqualified parenting, but if a person values human life while recognizing the fetus as a living being, then I would think it'd be inconsistent to approve of abortion. Oh, I don't know if you've noticed, but I've avoided using "pro choice" and "pro life". In the latter, I think if you approve of abortion under the basis that it's a woman's choice, and have only that reason to argue with, then the argument's practically worthless. I mean, when did a woman's choice or a man's choice really have anything to do with whether or not the action of choice was bad or not. That's really more of the topic at hand, if the abortive act is wrong or not, at least, I would think so. And I don't use pro life...because it's a stupid term.

 

Now, if someone does not agree with a fetus being life...I don't know, it's a weird topic really. Especially when life's definition is a rather controversial topic. Like, I don't know what your bio textbooks says or whatever, but it's something that's unclear, so it'd be difficult for me to argue that, without a pro-abortioner offering some sort of definition that they've accepted in making their choice.

 

You probably think that I'm making a poor post if I'm holding a stance while relying on other people to define reasons and stances, but that ambiguity is part of my position anyhow. I don't know when to define a fetus as life. The difference between a fetus right before birth and a baby right after birth is extremely small (unless someone wants to tell me something I don't know). So, referring to a baby as a living thing only by the fact that it has left the womb seems ridiculous and insensible to me. Now we have to have resolve when in the womb a fetus is considered life. I would think that in the development of a fetus, there aren't really clear lines, and if you can't mark a clear line that isn't arbitrary, such as the trimesters, why not just extend that backwards, all the way backwards, cutting your losses for something as valuable as human life?

 

Alright, that's all, feel free to criticize, please do, because I would really like to hear a good argument in support of abortion, seriously.

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2sick4u Newbie

2sick4u

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Hmm' date=' it's hard for me to actually post an argument to argue against abortion...I guess it's easier to point out why something it's not okay by arguing against reasons for why it is okay. And since the majority of the posts here seem to disagree with me, that's alot to quote.

 

But, let's see, I guess I'd argue under the idea that the fetus is a living being.

Now assuming a person agrees with that, I would say that it'd be inconsistent to support abortion, that is, assuming you believe in the sanctity of human life, which I would hope so, but that's a different argument entirely. If that's the case, it doesn't matter how much good comes from the act of abortion. I don't care about what it does for overpopulation or reducing the existence of unfit and unqualified parenting, but if a person values human life while recognizing the fetus as a living being, then I would think it'd be inconsistent to approve of abortion. Oh, I don't know if you've noticed, but I've avoided using "pro choice" and "pro life". In the latter, I think if you approve of abortion under the basis that it's a woman's choice, and have only that reason to argue with, then the argument's practically worthless. I mean, when did a woman's choice or a man's choice really have anything to do with whether or not the action of choice was bad or not. That's really more of the topic at hand, if the abortive act is wrong or not, at least, I would think so. And I don't use pro life...because it's a stupid term.

 

Now, if someone does not agree with a fetus being life...I don't know, it's a weird topic really. Especially when life's definition is a rather controversial topic. Like, I don't know what your bio textbooks says or whatever, but it's something that's unclear, so it'd be difficult for me to argue that, without a pro-abortioner offering some sort of definition that they've accepted in making their choice.

 

You probably think that I'm making a poor post if I'm holding a stance while relying on other people to define reasons and stances, but that ambiguity is part of my position anyhow. I don't know when to define a fetus as life. The difference between a fetus right before birth and a baby right after birth is extremely small (unless someone wants to tell me something I don't know). So, referring to a baby as a living thing only by the fact that it has left the womb seems ridiculous and insensible to me. Now we have to have resolve when in the womb a fetus is considered life. I would think that in the development of a fetus, there aren't really clear lines, and if you can't mark a clear line that isn't arbitrary, such as the trimesters, why not just extend that backwards, all the way backwards, cutting your losses for something as valuable as human life?

 

Alright, that's all, feel free to criticize, please do, because I would really like to hear a good argument in support of abortion, seriously.

[/quote']

I read your first paragraph, and stopped, since your "Fetus" views couldn't be more.. stupid? In the sense that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, they allow abortion up to a certain trimester. You know why? Because until that trimester, usually the 4th (Not sure though), the "Fetus" isn't formed, it's an embryo. Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

Simply, it can't, and you're an idiot for thinking you were right, as is anyone else that disagrees with abortion.

-_-".

2sick~

(And yes, I know it's off topic.)

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Willieh Newbie

Willieh

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Posted

Hmm' date=' it's hard for me to actually post an argument to argue against abortion...I guess it's easier to point out why something it's not okay by arguing against reasons for why it is okay. And since the majority of the posts here seem to disagree with me, that's alot to quote.

 

But, let's see, I guess I'd argue under the idea that the fetus is a living being.

Now assuming a person agrees with that, I would say that it'd be inconsistent to support abortion, that is, assuming you believe in the sanctity of human life, which I would hope so, but that's a different argument entirely. If that's the case, it doesn't matter how much good comes from the act of abortion. I don't care about what it does for overpopulation or reducing the existence of unfit and unqualified parenting, but if a person values human life while recognizing the fetus as a living being, then I would think it'd be inconsistent to approve of abortion. Oh, I don't know if you've noticed, but I've avoided using "pro choice" and "pro life". In the latter, I think if you approve of abortion under the basis that it's a woman's choice, and have only that reason to argue with, then the argument's practically worthless. I mean, when did a woman's choice or a man's choice really have anything to do with whether or not the action of choice was bad or not. That's really more of the topic at hand, if the abortive act is wrong or not, at least, I would think so. And I don't use pro life...because it's a stupid term.

 

Now, if someone does not agree with a fetus being life...I don't know, it's a weird topic really. Especially when life's definition is a rather controversial topic. Like, I don't know what your bio textbooks says or whatever, but it's something that's unclear, so it'd be difficult for me to argue that, without a pro-abortioner offering some sort of definition that they've accepted in making their choice.

 

You probably think that I'm making a poor post if I'm holding a stance while relying on other people to define reasons and stances, but that ambiguity is part of my position anyhow. I don't know when to define a fetus as life. The difference between a fetus right before birth and a baby right after birth is extremely small (unless someone wants to tell me something I don't know). So, referring to a baby as a living thing only by the fact that it has left the womb seems ridiculous and insensible to me. Now we have to have resolve when in the womb a fetus is considered life. I would think that in the development of a fetus, there aren't really clear lines, and if you can't mark a clear line that isn't arbitrary, such as the trimesters, why not just extend that backwards, all the way backwards, cutting your losses for something as valuable as human life?

 

Alright, that's all, feel free to criticize, please do, because I would really like to hear a good argument in support of abortion, seriously.

[/quote']

I read your first paragraph, and stopped, since your "Fetus" views couldn't be more.. stupid? In the sense that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, they allow abortion up to a certain trimester. You know why? Because until that trimester, usually the 4th (Not sure though), the "Fetus" isn't formed, it's an embryo. Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

Simply, it can't, and you're an idiot for thinking you were right, as is anyone else that disagrees with abortion.

-_-".

2sick~

(And yes, I know it's off topic.)

 

I'm pro-life. I think that the woman should reap what she so'd. It's playing god when you decide what gets to live and what gets to die.

 

It's the female's fault she's like that anyway. And even if she isnt; what's the point of preventing a life? It's not really helping anyone out. Besides, none of us no what giving birth feels like; none of us have spawned a child yet.

 

The best case senario would be to give birth to the child and give it to an orphanage, a hospital, or a family who really wants the kid and seems like a fit family.

 

And even better than that would be to take birth control and wear a rubber. (even if you did get raped, which is very unlikely, birth control would help prevent it.)

 

I read your first paragraph' date=' and stopped, since your "Fetus" views couldn't be more.. stupid? In the sense that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, they allow abortion up to a [i']certain trimester[/i]. You know why? Because until that trimester, usually the 4th (Not sure though), the "Fetus" isn't formed, it's an embryo. Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

Simply, it can't, and you're an idiot for thinking you were right, as is anyone else that disagrees with abortion.

-_-".

2sick~

(And yes, I know it's off topic.)

 

Actually, they normally do take it out when it's a fetus. They normally just give the fetus to scientists for stem-cell research (unless that was outlawed finally. I didn't really keep up with it :().

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2sick4u Newbie

2sick4u

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Hmm' date=' it's hard for me to actually post an argument to argue against abortion...I guess it's easier to point out why something it's not okay by arguing against reasons for why it is okay. And since the majority of the posts here seem to disagree with me, that's alot to quote.

 

But, let's see, I guess I'd argue under the idea that the fetus is a living being.

Now assuming a person agrees with that, I would say that it'd be inconsistent to support abortion, that is, assuming you believe in the sanctity of human life, which I would hope so, but that's a different argument entirely. If that's the case, it doesn't matter how much good comes from the act of abortion. I don't care about what it does for overpopulation or reducing the existence of unfit and unqualified parenting, but if a person values human life while recognizing the fetus as a living being, then I would think it'd be inconsistent to approve of abortion. Oh, I don't know if you've noticed, but I've avoided using "pro choice" and "pro life". In the latter, I think if you approve of abortion under the basis that it's a woman's choice, and have only that reason to argue with, then the argument's practically worthless. I mean, when did a woman's choice or a man's choice really have anything to do with whether or not the action of choice was bad or not. That's really more of the topic at hand, if the abortive act is wrong or not, at least, I would think so. And I don't use pro life...because it's a stupid term.

 

Now, if someone does not agree with a fetus being life...I don't know, it's a weird topic really. Especially when life's definition is a rather controversial topic. Like, I don't know what your bio textbooks says or whatever, but it's something that's unclear, so it'd be difficult for me to argue that, without a pro-abortioner offering some sort of definition that they've accepted in making their choice.

 

You probably think that I'm making a poor post if I'm holding a stance while relying on other people to define reasons and stances, but that ambiguity is part of my position anyhow. I don't know when to define a fetus as life. The difference between a fetus right before birth and a baby right after birth is extremely small (unless someone wants to tell me something I don't know). So, referring to a baby as a living thing only by the fact that it has left the womb seems ridiculous and insensible to me. Now we have to have resolve when in the womb a fetus is considered life. I would think that in the development of a fetus, there aren't really clear lines, and if you can't mark a clear line that isn't arbitrary, such as the trimesters, why not just extend that backwards, all the way backwards, cutting your losses for something as valuable as human life?

 

Alright, that's all, feel free to criticize, please do, because I would really like to hear a good argument in support of abortion, seriously.

[/quote']

I read your first paragraph, and stopped, since your "Fetus" views couldn't be more.. stupid? In the sense that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, they allow abortion up to a certain trimester. You know why? Because until that trimester, usually the 4th (Not sure though), the "Fetus" isn't formed, it's an embryo. Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

Simply, it can't, and you're an idiot for thinking you were right, as is anyone else that disagrees with abortion.

-_-".

2sick~

(And yes, I know it's off topic.)

 

I'm pro-life. I think that the woman should reap what she so'd. It's playing god when you decide what gets to live and what gets to die.

 

It's the female's fault she's like that anyway. And even if she isnt; what's the point of preventing a life? It's not really helping anyone out. Besides, none of us no what giving birth feels like; none of us have spawned a child yet.

 

The best case senario would be to give birth to the child and give it to an orphanage, a hospital, or a family who really wants the kid and seems like a fit family.

 

And even better than that would be to take birth control and wear a rubber. (even if you did get raped, which is very unlikely, birth control would help prevent it.)

 

I read your first paragraph' date=' and stopped, since your "Fetus" views couldn't be more.. stupid? In the sense that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, they allow abortion up to a [i']certain trimester[/i]. You know why? Because until that trimester, usually the 4th (Not sure though), the "Fetus" isn't formed, it's an embryo. Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

Simply, it can't, and you're an idiot for thinking you were right, as is anyone else that disagrees with abortion.

-_-".

2sick~

(And yes, I know it's off topic.)

 

Actually, they normally do take it out when it's a fetus. They normally just give the fetus to scientists for stem-cell research (unless that was outlawed finally. I didn't really keep up with it :().

You're forgetting I live in Australia ;].

In America, I could believe they'd abort it as a fetus.

However, here, well, in Victoria, the only state in Australia in which abortions legal, they abort it as an embryo.

=/.

Hm.. I don't really keep up with it either, but I watch a video in science the other day, based on stem-cell research, where they took the cells/egg out of a woman before conception, and tried to artificially produce an embryo/fetus for study. (It was also a two part on cloning.. O.o. And yes, it was gross as funk. ;].)

2sick~

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silverlighted Newbie

silverlighted

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I read your first paragraph' date=' and stopped, since your "Fetus" views couldn't be more.. stupid? In the sense that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, they allow abortion up to a [i']certain trimester[/i]. You know why? Because until that trimester, usually the 4th (Not sure though), the "Fetus" isn't formed, it's an embryo. Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

Simply, it can't, and you're an idiot for thinking you were right, as is anyone else that disagrees with abortion.

-_-".

2sick~

(And yes, I know it's off topic.)

 

What's offtopic?

And which first paragraph? The very first one which doesn't mention fetus? Or you mean you read the first line of the second? When you say my views, do you mean, that a fetus=life?

 

Anyways, erm, there isn't a fourth trimester...aren't there only 3. And yes...I was aware that abortion is only legal to certain point...but I thought that differed from state to state, but in any case, it doesn't affect my later quasi argument which I'm assuming you didn't reach. And fetal period starts around week 11 according to wikipedia...though that's not really pertinent to what I'm saying.

 

Oh and, yes, you're right, I used the term fetus wrong in my original post, my mistake, I'll add a note on top.

 

Now, dealing with the main issue, I was basically referring to an embryo for the most part, because obviously, people differentiate between embryo and fetus when allowing for abortion.

 

Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

 

But humans are a collection for cells that are dividing...yes I know, it's a technical point, but, lol, that's what you've given me? I don't know how else to argue. You're telling me that embryo's aren't human, but you've given little criteria to determine to what a human is.

 

And if you read farther, much of my reasoning refers to the ambiguity of such a determination.

 

Lastly....I would hope that ANYONE who produces their own viewpoint thinks that they're right about it. I mean, I would hope that you think that YOU'RE right. Because if you didn't, then I would definitely think you were an idiot.

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Willieh Newbie

Willieh

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Hmm' date=' it's hard for me to actually post an argument to argue against abortion...I guess it's easier to point out why something it's not okay by arguing against reasons for why it is okay. And since the majority of the posts here seem to disagree with me, that's alot to quote.

 

But, let's see, I guess I'd argue under the idea that the fetus is a living being.

Now assuming a person agrees with that, I would say that it'd be inconsistent to support abortion, that is, assuming you believe in the sanctity of human life, which I would hope so, but that's a different argument entirely. If that's the case, it doesn't matter how much good comes from the act of abortion. I don't care about what it does for overpopulation or reducing the existence of unfit and unqualified parenting, but if a person values human life while recognizing the fetus as a living being, then I would think it'd be inconsistent to approve of abortion. Oh, I don't know if you've noticed, but I've avoided using "pro choice" and "pro life". In the latter, I think if you approve of abortion under the basis that it's a woman's choice, and have only that reason to argue with, then the argument's practically worthless. I mean, when did a woman's choice or a man's choice really have anything to do with whether or not the action of choice was bad or not. That's really more of the topic at hand, if the abortive act is wrong or not, at least, I would think so. And I don't use pro life...because it's a stupid term.

 

Now, if someone does not agree with a fetus being life...I don't know, it's a weird topic really. Especially when life's definition is a rather controversial topic. Like, I don't know what your bio textbooks says or whatever, but it's something that's unclear, so it'd be difficult for me to argue that, without a pro-abortioner offering some sort of definition that they've accepted in making their choice.

 

You probably think that I'm making a poor post if I'm holding a stance while relying on other people to define reasons and stances, but that ambiguity is part of my position anyhow. I don't know when to define a fetus as life. The difference between a fetus right before birth and a baby right after birth is extremely small (unless someone wants to tell me something I don't know). So, referring to a baby as a living thing only by the fact that it has left the womb seems ridiculous and insensible to me. Now we have to have resolve when in the womb a fetus is considered life. I would think that in the development of a fetus, there aren't really clear lines, and if you can't mark a clear line that isn't arbitrary, such as the trimesters, why not just extend that backwards, all the way backwards, cutting your losses for something as valuable as human life?

 

Alright, that's all, feel free to criticize, please do, because I would really like to hear a good argument in support of abortion, seriously.

[/quote']

I read your first paragraph, and stopped, since your "Fetus" views couldn't be more.. stupid? In the sense that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, they allow abortion up to a certain trimester. You know why? Because until that trimester, usually the 4th (Not sure though), the "Fetus" isn't formed, it's an embryo. Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

Simply, it can't, and you're an idiot for thinking you were right, as is anyone else that disagrees with abortion.

-_-".

2sick~

(And yes, I know it's off topic.)

 

I'm pro-life. I think that the woman should reap what she so'd. It's playing god when you decide what gets to live and what gets to die.

 

It's the female's fault she's like that anyway. And even if she isnt; what's the point of preventing a life? It's not really helping anyone out. Besides, none of us no what giving birth feels like; none of us have spawned a child yet.

 

The best case senario would be to give birth to the child and give it to an orphanage, a hospital, or a family who really wants the kid and seems like a fit family.

 

And even better than that would be to take birth control and wear a rubber. (even if you did get raped, which is very unlikely, birth control would help prevent it.)

 

I read your first paragraph' date=' and stopped, since your "Fetus" views couldn't be more.. stupid? In the sense that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, they allow abortion up to a [i']certain trimester[/i]. You know why? Because until that trimester, usually the 4th (Not sure though), the "Fetus" isn't formed, it's an embryo. Embryo's aren't human, in fact, they're mainly just a collection of cells that are dividing. How can killing an embryo be murder?

Simply, it can't, and you're an idiot for thinking you were right, as is anyone else that disagrees with abortion.

-_-".

2sick~

(And yes, I know it's off topic.)

 

Actually, they normally do take it out when it's a fetus. They normally just give the fetus to scientists for stem-cell research (unless that was outlawed finally. I didn't really keep up with it :().

You're forgetting I live in Australia ;].

In America, I could believe they'd abort it as a fetus.

However, here, well, in Victoria, the only state in Australia in which abortions legal, they abort it as an embryo.

=/.

Hm.. I don't really keep up with it either, but I watch a video in science the other day, based on stem-cell research, where they took the cells/egg out of a woman before conception, and tried to artificially produce an embryo/fetus for study. (It was also a two part on cloning.. O.o. And yes, it was gross as f***. ;].)

2sick~

 

:O I wouldn't watch something like that; sounds like something incredibly nasty.

 

Lol this will probably sound wierd, but one thing that freaks me out is like little tiny holes. Like the alveoli in the lungs...It's just...freaky, not scary, but freaky...

 

*wow that was off topic (on my part XD)*

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silverlighted Newbie

silverlighted

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I'm pro-life. I think that the woman should reap what she so'd. It's playing god when you decide what gets to live and what gets to die.

 

It's the female's fault she's like that anyway. And even if she isnt; what's the point of preventing a life? It's not really helping anyone out. Besides' date=' none of us no what giving birth feels like; none of us have spawned a child yet.

 

The best case senario would be to give birth to the child and give it to an orphanage, a hospital, or a family who really wants the kid and seems like a fit family.

 

And even better than that would be to take birth control and wear a rubber. (even if you did get raped, which is very unlikely, birth control would help prevent it.)

[/quote']

 

Well, I'm sure there are some pro-abortioners out there who have given birth, lol.

 

And you can't always be on birth control...that's kinda bad for you I would think.

But yeah, I would prefer adoption. But then some people start talking about the pains of childbirth, which I am sure are plenty, but still....

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Willieh Newbie

Willieh

Posted
Posted

I'm pro-life. I think that the woman should reap what she so'd. It's playing god when you decide what gets to live and what gets to die.

 

It's the female's fault she's like that anyway. And even if she isnt; what's the point of preventing a life? It's not really helping anyone out. Besides' date=' none of us no what giving birth feels like; none of us have spawned a child yet.

 

The best case senario would be to give birth to the child and give it to an orphanage, a hospital, or a family who really wants the kid and seems like a fit family.

 

And even better than that would be to take birth control and wear a rubber. (even if you did get raped, which is very unlikely, birth control would help prevent it.)

[/quote']

 

Well, I'm sure there are some pro-abortioners out there who have given birth, lol.

 

And you can't always be on birth control...that's kinda bad for you I would think.

But yeah, I would prefer adoption. But then some people start talking about the pains of childbirth, which I am sure are plenty, but still....

 

Yeah it would harm you if popped 'em 8 at a time.

 

Asprins will kill you if you take 6 of them. :|

 

otherwise birth control has no additional effects.

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silverlighted Newbie

silverlighted

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Posted

I'm pro-life. I think that the woman should reap what she so'd. It's playing god when you decide what gets to live and what gets to die.

 

It's the female's fault she's like that anyway. And even if she isnt; what's the point of preventing a life? It's not really helping anyone out. Besides' date=' none of us no what giving birth feels like; none of us have spawned a child yet.

 

The best case senario would be to give birth to the child and give it to an orphanage, a hospital, or a family who really wants the kid and seems like a fit family.

 

And even better than that would be to take birth control and wear a rubber. (even if you did get raped, which is very unlikely, birth control would help prevent it.)

[/quote']

 

Well, I'm sure there are some pro-abortioners out there who have given birth, lol.

 

And you can't always be on birth control...that's kinda bad for you I would think.

But yeah, I would prefer adoption. But then some people start talking about the pains of childbirth, which I am sure are plenty, but still....

 

Yeah it would harm you if popped 'em 8 at a time.

 

Asprins will kill you if you take 6 of them. :|

 

otherwise birth control has no additional effects.

 

But birth control alters one's hormonal levels, and if you kept with it, you'd be continuously having...erm...messed up levels. I hadnthought that was bad for you over an extended period of time......unless that's one of those arguments that people make all because something is unnatural.

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