Silencerleader Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 -.- Yet another rant on yet another children's card game forum. Free will does exist. You had the choice of posting this' date=' didn't you?[/quote'] Posted or not...thats the point. To post, or not to post...etc.As I said before, it probably does to the heart, but not to your mind (no you...you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Altair Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 -.- Yet another rant on yet another children's card game forum. Free will does exist. You had the choice of posting this' date=' didn't you?[/quote'] it means you didn't read the thread, read pl0x. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixty Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 -.- Yet another rant on yet another children's card game forum. Free will does exist. You had the choice of posting this' date=' didn't you?[/quote'] it means you didn't read the thread, read pl0x. :P Fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 -.- Yet another rant on yet another children's card game forum. Free will does exist. You had the choice of posting this' date=' didn't you?[/quote'] Posted or not...thats the point. To post, or not to post...etc.As I said before, it probably does to the heart, but not to your mind (no you...you) But the heart is naive, it is not to be trusted on matters of real importance. It is the part of you that hopes, prays, and is weak, the emotional side that is easily broken. What importance does heart play when you can take the mind for what it is, get over reality, and just live by what makes sense? I'm not trying to anger you or anything, I will actually admit that your statement earlier in this post was probably the most sensible one thus far from an opposing standpoint. I just want a reaction (as in reply). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonwalk 2000 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 the free will thing is very true every decision in our life is effected and/or directed by other people.Wether it be voluntary or involuntary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NP Sage Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 It kind of related so i guess I'll post. I used something similar in arguments against Christianity. Supposedly God gave us the ability of free will, right? But if he knows everything we will ever do, do we really have a choice? no because if he knows it's predetermined, and thus can not be changed. And If we can not decide no free will. So either A. We have no free will and certain people are destined to go to hell (not exactly a loving god now is he?) or B. We have free will and then half+ the bible is a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarbleZone Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Maybe this could be moved to Debates? Anyway. I'm not sure I agree with some things mentioned on the opening post and the video. Release of chemical substances in the brain that affect our decisions, impulses if you will, aren't entirely unconcious (subconscious is a wrong way of putting it altogether). If things did work that way, we would never have doubts; we would follow the strongest impulse and to hell with it. On that note, nobody would feel regret either, because regret involves feeling sorry for having made one choice instead of another. Obviously, we select one impulse and follow it, but that alone involves choice (free will). Chemicals aren't chains that bind us to one single decision. Getting up to eat or not is, in my opinion, a conveniently selected example that involves physiological needs, and therefore is heavily dependant on metabolic factors. The fact that we weigh options implies a choice to activate one chemical pathway and inhibit another. Rationality comes with choice, because we can select which impulse to follow. Monkeys, for example, activate and inhibit certain pathways based solely on survival instinct and, on every other situation, on what actions result in higher dopamine release on the nucleus accumbens, which is to say, which actions result in more pleasure. All in all, I agree that our actions are dependant on what happens in our brain. What I don't agree with is that we have no control over how it works. If we argue whether or not we can make choices, we might as well argue if we're rational creatures or not. When two different signals have roughly the same intensity and opposite signals, we have the ability to select one of them to solve the conflict (12th grade psychology). We are only inevitably bound to follow one impulse or the other when one is particularly stronger, such as in biological needs. And we have the ability to ignore biological impulses (cook more food when we're already full) because we are able to generate impulses that overpower the metabolic signals (we choose and are able to create such unnatural potentials, and that is in essence what the ability to choose is about.) Whether we choose to increase a certain signal is based on greed, lust, or need, that is more on the philosophical domain. Kant said everyone is selfish unless their actions are entirely based on the law. If we act in a certain way for reasons other than "because we are expected to do so by law" (Constitutional law, moral law, I don't believe he ever specified which, but it has a connotation of "universal rules of conduct"-kind of law), we were being selfish. In essence, everything a person did was ultimately to make her feel good about herself, and that is true to an extent (even when you make a personal sacrifice, you do so ultimately to feel at peace with yourself for having done the right thing, which in turn makes you selfish). However, in a situation where you have to choose between an action that results in immediate, personal pleasure or one that might make somebody else happy as well (should I eat the last slice of pie or wait for my brother to get home and share it), feelings like guilt also weigh on our decision. And it's our ability to select whether we can live with that guilt and eat the pie or we prefer to feel better by having less pie, but a happier brother, that proves, in my opinion, that we are capable of choosing. I won't say that we have unlimited free will. Some people say our freedom ends where that of another person begins. I disagree, some people could care less about the freedom of others, and that stems from one's upbringing (which is one of the reasons why I say we have no "unlimited freedom of choice"). Also, there's always the factor of outside interferences with our freedom (I can choose to rob a conveniece store instead of paying for the products - assuming I have money to do so -, but I'll be arrested, so I cannot make the most of that particular choice because of forced consequences - yet I can choose to live with those, can't I?)But to say we have no free will at all, for the reasons I pointed out above, sounds quite wrong to me. Of course, I can be wrong in some aspects myself, and that's why I think we should move this to Debates so people can try and destroy my arguments properly. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cin Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Its a very convincing argument (even after doing full A Levels in both Philosophy and Biology). The heart really means nothing in terms of thinking, it is not capable of the process, so why does everyone refer to it like it has some part of the process. From a God point of view if we were not free wouldn't we all worship him, then our of love him be worthless. Never believe the bible word for word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelsthla-Mental Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 As far as i can see, it is all convincing (not that i can understand half of it...) My point of view is that... meh, i'll say free will does exist. To be blunt, unless we build a time machine, we can't really change what happened. And unless we can see the future with 100% accuracy, we can't know that what happened was predetermined. So really, i guess what I'm saying is we lack the complete proof to be certain. Very stupid, but meh. Why do i say free will does exist? Cause if i thought it didn't, I'd go crazy, so probably it's probably fear that you're right. That's my two cents, compared to you millionaires, it isn't much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonisanoob Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 i would prefer to think im in control of myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted July 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Blackwind, it gets more views in general, so I asked it stay here. Of course, my request can be ignored, but we all know Colin's (Slimey) best friend (Kramah) is my Commy buddy, so he probably will not move it unless something actually happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 MASSIVE BUMP TO MOVE TO DEBATES PL0X! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junk Raver Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Moved ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Moved ^_^ Thanks. I feel like a tool, haven't talked to you in months and the first thing I say is that I need a thread moved >.< I'd +1, but I've given out too many today. lol. (I mean, you have enough ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 This is impossible to prove true or false. Time cannot be studied; so we can't observe it's path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogg-Saron Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Free will does exist in a way Static. Choices are free will, we make choices, therefore we have free will in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelioSpark Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Free will does not exist, because all of the expieriences in your life shape your opinions and your decision making process. Therefore, when you have to make a decision you will draw upon information which you already have to make that decision. Every person's knowledge is different, and that is why we make different choices, not because our emotion tells us to do this or that. Our whole life is a series of choices, meaning that your life is already planned for you at birth. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 ^ We do make a lot of decisions based on our emotions; not our knowledge. In fact our emotions allow us to learn anything we know about our social life. Think about it, would you know anything you know about anyone you like without emotion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelioSpark Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 however, the knowledge that you take away from other expieriences shape your emotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted July 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 This is impossible to prove true or false. Time cannot be studied; so we can't observe it's path. Time is only how humans make sense of the universe. Without perception, whose to say time exists. If time didn't exist, then we could see things from another entire perspective, perhaps free will could exist then, but as long as time, a LINEAR PROGRESSION OF EVENTS IN A PERCEIVABLE UNIVERSE, is linear, and the past creates the present which creates the future, then there is only one possible way for anything to happen. Also, it is not Christian to say free will does not exist, it is Christian to say that the universe has a beginning. To say it does not is beyond most human comprehension, sort of like the idea of what the world be like if we did not see through time, but that does not mean that it is impossible for there to be no beginning or end to the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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