CrabHelmet Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I. Forbidden CardsYou cannot use these cards in your Deck, Extra Deck or Side Deck. ACCUMULATED FORTUNEALL-OUT ATTACKSALLURE OF DARKNESSARCANA FORCE EX - THE DARK RULERARCANA FORCE XXI - THE WORLDARMED SAMURAI - BEN KEIBATORU MANIA (Battle Mania)BLACK LUSTER SOLDIER - ENVOY OF THE BEGINNINGBLASTING THE RUINSBREAKER THE MAGICAL WARRIORBUTTERFLY DAGGER - ELMACALL OF THE HAUNTEDCARD OF SAFE RETURNCHANGE OF HEARTCHAOS EMPEROR DRAGON - ENVOY OF THE ENDCHAOS SORCERERCHIMERATECH FORTRESS DRAGON (Chimeratech Fortress Dragon)CHIMERATECH OVERDRAGONCONFISCATIONCRUSH CARD VIRUSCYBER DRAGONCYBER END DRAGONCYBER JARCYBER-STEINCYBER TWIN DRAGONDAIROKKAN (Sixth Sense)DARK ARMED DRAGONDARK HOLEDARKLORD ZERATODARK MAGICIAN OF CHAOSDECK DEVASTATION VIRUSDELINQUENT DUODEMISE, KING OF ARMAGEDDONDESTINY HERO - DISK COMMANDERDIMENSION FUSIONEPIDEMIC ERADICATION VIRUSEVIL HERO DARK GAIAEXCHANGE OF THE SPIRITEXODIA THE FORBIDDEN ONEFIBER JARGLADIATOR BEAST GYZARUSGOLD SARCOPHAGUSGRACEFUL CHARITYHARPIE'S FEATHER DUSTERIMPERIAL ORDERJUDGMENT DRAGONLAST TURNLAST WILLLIFE EQUALIZERLIMITER REMOVALMAGICAL EXPLOSIONMAGICAL SCIENTISTMAKYURA THE DESTRUCTORMEGAMORPHMEIFU NO SHISHA GOES (Gorz the Emissary of Darkness)MIRAGE OF NIGHTMAREMONSTER REBORNMORPHING JARNOBLEMAN OF CROSSOUTOCEAN DRAGON LORD - NEO-DAEDALUSOUKYUU NO TEPPEKI (Royal Impregnable Fortress)PAINFUL CHOICEPHANTOM OF CHAOSPOT OF GREEDPREMATURE BURIALRAIGEKIRESCUE CATRETURN FROM THE DIFFERENT DIMENSIONREVERSAL QUIZRING OF DESTRUCTIONSANGANSELF-DESTRUCT BUTTONSINISTER SERPENTSKY SCOURGE NORLERASSNATCH STEALSNIPE HUNTERSUPERALLOY BEAST RAPTINUSTHE FORCEFUL SENTRYTHOUSAND-EYES RESTRICTTIME SEALTRAP DUSTSHOOTTREEBORN FROGTRIBE-INFECTING VIRUSTSUKUYOMIULTIMATE OFFERINGUNITED WE STANDVICTORY DRAGONWITCH OF THE BLACK FORESTYATA-GARASU NEW! - Accumulated Fortune, All-Out Attacks, Allure of Darkness, Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler, Arcana Force XXI - The World, Armed Samurai - Ben Kei, Batoru Mania (Battle Mania), Blasting the Ruins, Breaker the Magical Warrior, Card of Safe Return, Chimeratech Fortress Dragon (Chimeratech Fortress Dragon), Chimeratech Overdragon, Crush Card Virus, Cyber Dragon, Cyber End Dragon, Cyber Twin Dragon, Dark Armed Dragon, Darklord Zerato, Deck Devastation Virus, Demise, King of Armageddon, Epidemic Eradication Virus, Evil Hero Dark Gaia, Exodia the Forbidden One, Gladiator Beast Gyzarus, Gold Sarcophagus, Judgment Dragon, Life Equalizer, Limiter Removal, Magical Explosion, Megamorph, Meifu no Shisha Goes (Gorz the Emissary of Darkness), Monster Reborn, Morphing Jar, Nobleman of Crossout, Ocean Dragon Lord - Neo-Daedalus, Oukyuu no Teppeki (Royal Impregnable Fortress), Phantom of Chaos, Rescue Cat, Return from the Different Dimension, Reversal Quiz, Sangan, Self-Destruct Button, Sky Scourge Norleras, Snipe Hunter, Superalloy Beast Raptinus, Trap Dustshoot, Treeborn Frog, Ultimate Offering, United We Stand II. Limited CardsYou can ONLY use one of the following cards in the Deck, Extra Deck & Side Deck combined. CARD DESTRUCTIONCARD TROOPERCEASEFIRECHAIN STRIKEELEMENTAL HERO STRATOSGIANT TRUNADEGRAVITY BINDGREEN BABOON, DEFENDER OF THE FORESTHEAVY STORMLEVEL LIMIT - AREA BMAGIC CYLINDERMARSHMALLONMIRROR FORCENECROFACENIGHT ASSAILANTSPIRIT REAPERSWORDS OF REVEALING LIGHTTWIN-HEADED BEHEMOTH NEW! - Chain Strike, Necroface III. Semi-Limited CardsThere are no Semi-Limited cards in this format. NEW! - The following cards are no longer Limited: Advanced Ritual Art, Book of Moon, Brain Control, D.D. Warrior Lady, Dandelion (Dandylion), Fissure, Foolish Burial, Future Fusion, Left Arm of the Forbidden One, Left Leg of the Forbidden One, Magical Stone Excavation, Magician of Faith, Manticore of Darkness, Mask of Darkness, Metamorphosis, Mind Crush, Monster Gate, Mystical Space Typhoon, Neo-Spacian Grand Mole, Ojama Trio, Ouke no Shinden (Temple of the Kings), Overload Fusion, Raiza the Storm Monarch, Reasoning, Right Arm of the Forbidden One, Right Leg of the Forbidden One, Scapegoat, Shoukan Sou - Samon Purīsuto (Summon Priest), Smashing Ground, The Transmigration Prophecy, Torrential Tribute, Wall of Revealing Light In an age when everybody disagrees over what the banlist should look like, I have cunningly constructed a banlist that is guaranteed to be hated by absolutely everybody. I would not be surprised if most people here read the first card on the list and stopped reading, considering that it happens to be one of the most controversial cards on here. [spoiler=The Reasoning Behind the List]All cards have a default position of 3, and are placed on the list only when it can be logically shown that keeping them at 3 would damage the game. Each card needs to be dealt with separately; there is no specific formula that you can plug in to determine where a card belongs. Most of the reasoning behind each ban/limit is covered by the categories listed below. However, note that these categories were created to reflect the general trends in the logic used; the logic used was not determined by the categories. (The only possible exception here is Category X, which is purely theoretical because there aren't actually any cards in the card pool that fall under it.) PROHIBITED Category 1) The card gives too large a reward too easily for too small a cost. Most of these cards are splashable, but not all; a theme support card that lets you draw 7 cards for no real cost would be banworthy under this, despite not being splashable. Example: Raigeki. Category 2) The card enables one or more OTK's and/or FTK's to be accomplished easily. Often, these cards are used solely for the purpose of OTK's and/or FTK's. Example: Magical Explosion. Category 3) The card invalidates a basic mechanical part of the game by effectively preventing it from ever being used with any merit; a good game does not turn its back on its basic mechanics. Example: Nobleman of Crossout (invalidates Flips). Category 4) Similar to number 3, the card invalidates a certain playstyle that would otherwise contribute to the game. Example: Cyber Dragon (invalidates Stall). Category 5) The underlying idea of the card's effect is, as a matter of principle, completely unacceptable in any form. Example: Victory Dragon. LIMITED Category A) The card cannot remain at 3 due to one or more of the banning conditions (probably Condition 1) but provides some benefit to the game at 1 that allows it to remain. Example: Mirror Force. Category B) The card cannot remain at 3 due to an unacceptable interaction with another copy of itself; at 1, however, it cannot interact with itself, and thus can remain legal. Example: Night Assailant. Category C) The card cannot remain at 3 for purely mechanical reasons that make multiple copies of it impossible; however, it can remain at 1, where there are no other copies with which to conflict. Example: Twin-Headed Behemoth. SEMI-LIMITED Category X) The card cannot remain at 3 due to an unacceptable interaction with two other copies of itself; at 2, however, it cannot interact with two other copies of itself, and thus can remain Semi-Limited. Example: [none available] Again, these classifications reflect the logic, and not the other way around; furthermore, each card is an individual case, so even if a card might seem to fall into a category, it might not belong in that place on the list - or even on the list at all. They're simply there to describe trends in logic, not set concrete policy. Category C is an example of this, since it was created specifically to reflect the treatment of one specific card, and applies to no other cards in the card pool; it was not decided on in advance and then used to determine the fate of Twin-Headed Behemoth. Because each card is handled individually, it is impossible to give an accurate summary of the reasoning involved without delving into each individual card on (or not on) the list. The above categories are the best I could do to give a general idea of what the logic typically involved. Anyhow, this topic is now open for discussion. Feel free to start complaining immediately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabris Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 No, I only hate anything that semi-limits cards. So I won't bleed for this. My only queries for now, though: Why Victory Dragon as an example for Category 5? What is so unnacceptable in the Dragon's effect that makes it banworthy? And why? And why are Fool and Gellenduo limited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PikaPerson01 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Why is Self-Destruct Button bannable? And what Synchros are we trying to avoid with the banning of Summon Priest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I like you're thinking. I wouldn't like it applied.No' date=' I only hate anything that semi-limits cards. So I won't bleed for this. My only queries for now, though: Why Victory Dragon as an example for Category 5? What is so unnacceptable in the Dragon's effect that makes it banworthy? And why? And why are Fool and Gellenduo limited?[/quote'] Victory Dragon caused a lot of controversy in "Sportmanship." Once it hit the field and was about to win the match, the other player would scoop, resulting in a game loss rather than a match loss. Obviously it shouldn't result in a Match loss, Konami should be faulted for making such a retarded card a legitimate piece of business in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PikaPerson01 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 And to continue jabroniin', since I'm such an annoying teenage punk who can't calm her ADD enough to read a long list in one sitting. Why's Magic Cylinder still limited? And also, why is Cyber Dragon your example for Category 4, yet he's unlimited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabris Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 To Static: I know the cause of Victory Dragon's banning: as one guy in Pojo would put it, "cultural issues". But basically, all Konami would do is change the ruling in favor of either CG, and this card can go to 3. But I'm sensing different things from Crab.I'm sorry about your ADD, Pika, but I'll cover for Crab: SDB is banned because it abuses a game mechanic (whose tampering has been limited to only Last Turn and RoD). Cyber Dragon? A Freudian slip? For I won't recommend it unlimited, for various reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PikaPerson01 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 To Static: I know the cause of Victory Dragon's banning: as one guy in Pojo would put it' date=' "cultural issues". But basically, all Konami would do is change the ruling in favor of either CG, and this card can go to 3. But I'm sensing different things from Crab.[/quote'] You should never lose a match just by losing one round. If you've dueled long enough, even the best duelists have been lucked sacked by a terrible deck. But you get a chance to make up for it in rounds 2 and 3. With Victory Dragon, you don't. I'm sorry about your ADD, Pika, but I'll cover for Crab: Quick BTW: I don't really have ADD. >_> SDB is banned because it abuses a game mechanic (whose tampering has been limited to only Last Turn and RoD). Cyber Dragon? A Freudian slip? For I won't recommend it unlimited, for various reasons. The closest I could think would be Category 5 for it to be banned. Punishes good duelists for playing well by making their LP hit zero. But it makes you hit zero at the same time. Unless I've been grossly incorrect (which I could be) doesn't the duel end the moment LP hit zero, even if it's mid chain? (Activate Poison of the Old Man. Choose LP gain effect. Chain SDB.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted August 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I respond to one post, and by the time I'm done, two more have popped up, and by the time I'm done with those, another two pop up... >_> Why Victory Dragon as an example for Category 5? What is so unnacceptable in the Dragon's effect that makes it banworthy? And why? If it was a TCG-only list' date=' Victory Dragon would be at 3, since then it's a three-tribute 2400 ATK beatstick, since the TCG allows you to scoop at any time. But the OCG has strict rules regarding when scooping is allowed, and since the list is for both OCG and TCG and the differences over when scooping is allowed haven't been settled, its match-winner effect needs to be taken into account. (You obviously know all this; I'm saying this for the benefit of anyone who doesn't). Matches were created to ensure that everyone can afford to lose a duel against an opponent without being instantly eliminated. By playing 2/3 instead of 1/1, the more skilled player is more likely to emerge as the victor, as, although anybody can win a duel, the more skilled player should be able to win duels more consistently. The very basis of matches lies in emphasizing skill - consistent victory - over luck - which can swing any individual duel if one player is lucky and the opponent is unlucky. Victory Dragon takes away the balancing aspect that matches offer by enabling a player to lose an entire match in a single duel. It emphasizes a lucky victory in one duel over a consistent victory in 2/3 duels. Cards that emphasize luck over skill are exactly what the game doesn't need. It falls into Category 5 because the very concept of losing an entire match in one duel is unacceptable. Nobody, no matter how badly they are losing in a specific duel (and you're admittedly probably losing badly if Victory Dragon's effect goes off), deserves to lose the entire match solely over that single duel. Cards are used and played within individual duels, and shouldn't be affecting the world outside of the duel. (And I know that somebody's going to bring up Yu-Jo Friendship in response to that last comment.) And why are Fool and Gellenduo limited? Those are actually a leftover from an old version of the list that I was planning on removing but forgot to remove. Thanks for pointing that out. Why is Self-Destruct Button bannable? The only reason it exists is to abuse one specific game mechanic - the tournament clock. And what Synchros are we trying to avoid with the banning of Summon Priest? Summon Priest[DARK/Spellcaster/Effect/4/800/1600]This card cannot be Tributed. If this monster is Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned' date=' switch it to Defense Position. By sending this card you control, one Spell Card in your hand, and one Level 3 Tuner monster in your deck to the graveyard, destroy all cards on the field. Black Rose Dragon, for one. If Summon Priest's text explicitly said that, it would have been banned in a heartbeat. So, here we at the very least have a kill-SP-to-save-BRD or kill-BRD-to-save-SP scenario. However, note that Summon Priest can be used to instantly summon the majority of Synchro Monsters (Rescue Cat, at least, is restricted to Level 6 and below), and that as more and more Synchro Monsters are released, the probability of it coming into conflict with another Synchro Monster becomes greater and greater. Eventually, we are almost certain to encounter a kill-one-card-to-save-two-cards scenario. Another less direct problem with Summon Priest is that it makes a mockery of the regular Synchro Summoning rules by being able to transform (at the cost of one Spell) into virtually any Synchro monster. (The main ones that it can't pull are Mist Wyrm, which needs 2 non-Tuners; cards like Light End Dragon with restrictions on the non-Tuners; and cards like Junk Warrior with restrictions on the Tuner that make the levels add up wrong.) Why's Magic Cylinder still limited? This is one of those cards that's more of a problem in multiples due to the cumulative effect. Generally, it does 1/4 or 1/3 LP damage when used (in addition to negating an attack). Now, at 3, that's too much; however, at 1, the cumulative effect doesn't exist, and moreover, it adds an extra element to strategy by altering the potential risk of attacking with a monster with more ATK, in an amount directly proportional to said ATK. If you run 0 monsters, Dimension Wall does the same thing; however, in that case, running 0 monsters functions as a cost and is thus an acceptable trade-off. And also' date=' why is Cyber Dragon your example for Category 4, yet he's unlimited?[/quote'] Because I'm retarded and forgot to put his name on the list. I'll fix that too. But basically' date=' all Konami would do is change the ruling in favor of either CG, and this card can go to 3.[/quote'] If that were the case, I would have just put it right up to 3. If either solution is perfectly fine, just legalize it and thus force Konami to work something out in time for Worlds. >_> Sadly, if they chose the OCG version, Victory Dragon would need to remain banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orochi Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 crab, can i use your category classification to translate it and difund it among spanish-speaking players?? that's major information... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Wow. Just wow. Is this the perfect list for your so called perfect Meta? I can see a Monarch or GB dominated Meta. I do and dont wish this was the new list. I do because it would offer a great challenge of deck building and new deck ideas. Too bad JoC took the Lightsworn Monarch idea which could be viable in this format. I wanted it. Oh well. I dont because well, GB's would probably dominate the Meta but then again, Im used to facing the GB build with Gyzarus and I dont know how it would do without Gyzarus although it has an SJC under its belt without Gyzarus or Chariot. This list would definately promote more skill in the game which is good. Category 5 is a bit vauge. Maybe change it to imply scooping rules or something. Victory Dragon does indeed reduce the effort needed to win a match. You basically win a Match in 1 duel which is still extremely unacceptable. The other categories are fine. I still dont think Allure needs to be banned with Dimension Fusion and Return banned. Please explain?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted August 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 crab' date=' can i use your category classification to translate it and difund it among spanish-speaking players?? that's major information...[/quote'] Do whatever you want with it, but it won't be worth much. Trying to derive logic from the categories is doing it the wrong way around. Wow. Just wow. Is this the perfect list for your so called perfect Meta? This list is not perfect' date=' nor have I ever claimed it was perfect. In fact, I tend to use "superior" or other such words when discussing hypothetical metas rather than "perfect". Frankly, this game is too flawed for anything to be "perfect". I dont because well, GB's would probably dominate the Meta but then again, Im used to facing the GB build with Gyzarus and I dont know how it would do without Gyzarus although it has an SJC without Gyzarus or Chariot. Aside from Gyzarus, the Gladiator Beast themed support is just good theme support. It's better than the support that most other themes have - an inflationary effect of Konami's card design - but not to the extent that would require list attention. Plus, under virtually any list, one deck or another will usually emerge as the best. Category 5 is a bit vauge. Maybe change it to imply scooping rules or something. Category 5 doesn't just refer to out-of-duel effects like match wins or scooping rules; it covers any effect that is unacceptable by its very principle. Personally' date=' I would group all three Viruses under Category 5, although logic from Category 1 also works. I still dont think Allure needs to be banned with Dimension Fusion and Return banned. Please explain?? There's nothing whatsoever about Allure that is overpowered. However' date=' the problem is its influence on the format: it incites speed. Note that, unlike Trade-In, whose use comes at the cost of an unusual deck balance (running larger numbers of Level 8 monsters than one otherwise would is mandatory), and Destiny Draw, which forces the use of a specific theme (and without Disk, the Perfect Circle engine is dead), Allure doesn't have a real drawback; it simply requires you to run DARKs. DARKs are not a specific theme; they are an extremely broad range of monsters containing a large proportion of the best and most splashable monsters in the game - even if we ignore bannable monsters like DMoC, Sangan, DAD, Darklord Zerato, Snipe Hunter, Disk Commander, and so on, we still have Jinzo, Spirit Reaper, Caius, D.D. Survivor, and so on and so forth. DARK has always been the best attribute. It doesn't come at the cost of an unusual deck balance, since DARKs, unlike Level 8's, don't have problems with easy summoning, and most decks already run DARKs. Because of this, Allure can do - and has done - something that the other Discard 1 Draw 2 cards cannot do. Specifically, its presence causes the entire format's speed to increase. It makes the entire game faster, and thus all decks, if they want to survive, must similarly become faster. I don't just mean slightly faster; I think we all remember the post-PTDN state of the TCG. Robbed of the easy methods of OTK, it would not be quite so fast, but the speed boost would still be easily noticeable. (For contrast, observe the post-PTDN state of the OCG, where, without Allure, the format never became turbocharged.) Now, observe that the fastest formats are bad for the game. They depend on godhands and don't give players a chance to show any skill, since the duel ends after the first few turns. Allure is in no way overpowered. However, its presence still has a negative influence on the game, and that's why it should go. The question has been raised as to whether Allure of Darkness would need to be banned if we had Allure of Lightness, Allure of Waterness, and so on for the other attributes. In actual fact, this is an even less ambiguous case than the one that actually faces us. The presence of all of these Allures ensures that essentially every deck gets a speed boost. That would be far more of a mindless increase in format speed than the mere presence of Allure of Darkness would be; instead of many, many decks getting speed boosts and the others being forced to try to keep up, every single deck in the game gets a speed boost. In this case, all or most of the Allures would be banned; perhaps one or two for weaker attributes, such as Allure of Windness or Allure of Waterness, would remain, as such attributes have significantly fewer top splashable monsters and therefore using them would, as with Trade-In, put a balancing strain on the deck.[/quote'] Quoted because I'm too lazy to type it up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tickle Me Emo Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 its good, but theres a question I got. Whys CyDra both banned and unlimited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I cant believe I missed that. Crab says it should be banned so Id go with the banned one. Its probably a typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiro Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 And what Synchros are we trying to avoid with the banning of Summon Priest? Summon Priest[DARK/Spellcaster/Effect/4/800/1600]This card cannot be Tributed. If this monster is Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned' date=' switch it to Defense Position. By sending this card you control, one Spell Card in your hand, and one Level 3 Tuner monster in your deck to the graveyard, destroy all cards on the field. Black Rose Dragon, for one. If Summon Priest's text explicitly said that, it would have been banned in a heartbeat. So, here we at the very least have a kill-SP-to-save-BRD or kill-BRD-to-save-SP scenario. However, note that Summon Priest can be used to instantly summon the majority of Synchro Monsters (Rescue Cat, at least, is restricted to Level 6 and below), and that as more and more Synchro Monsters are released, the probability of it coming into conflict with another Synchro Monster becomes greater and greater. Eventually, we are almost certain to encounter a kill-one-card-to-save-two-cards scenario. Another less direct problem with Summon Priest is that it makes a mockery of the regular Synchro Summoning rules by being able to transform (at the cost of one Spell) into virtually any Synchro monster. (The main ones that it can't pull are Mist Wyrm, which needs 2 non-Tuners; cards like Light End Dragon with restrictions on the non-Tuners; and cards like Junk Warrior with restrictions on the Tuner that make the levels add up wrong.)[/quote'] But wait! This card cannot be Tributed. If this monster is Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned' date=' switch it to Defense Position. Once per turn, by discarding a Spell Card from your hand, search your Deck for a Level 4 monster and Special Summon it. That monster cannot attack this turn.[/quote'] That is the real effect. Note that it doesn't say a Level 4 or lower monster, but just a Level 4 monster. If this translation is correct, then it can only summon Level 8 Synchros with it's effect. In my opinion, this doesn't give you so many options that it's bannable. Also, I assume you didn't put Rescue Cat in this virtual combo, because if so, you would be able to summon Mist Worm. And yes, if you use Summon Priest with Rescue Cat, you can choose almost any Synchro Monster, but you'll also have to fill your deck with cards that are mainly needed in the deck only, and are dead draws in the hand. This makes it balanced, in my opinion. So, unban Summon Priest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tickle Me Emo Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 this list says "Glad Format!!!!" Slowing down everything else but banning gyzarus... Glads will still be fast and will still dominate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:pyramid:. Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I. Forbidden CardsYou cannot use these cards in your Deck' date=' Extra Deck or Side Deck. ACCUMULATED FORTUNEALL-OUT ATTACKSALLURE OF DARKNESSARCANA FORCE EX - THE DARK RULERARCANA FORCE XXI - THE WORLDARMED SAMURAI - BEN KEIBATORU MANIA (Battle Mania)BLACK LUSTER SOLDIER - ENVOY OF THE BEGINNINGBLASTING THE RUINSBREAKER THE MAGICAL WARRIORBUTTERFLY DAGGER - ELMACALL OF THE HAUNTEDCARD OF SAFE RETURNCHANGE OF HEARTCHAOS EMPEROR DRAGON - ENVOY OF THE ENDCHAOS SORCERERCHIMERATECH FORTRESS DRAGON (Chimeratech Fortress Dragon)CHIMERATECH OVERDRAGONCONFISCATIONCRUSH CARD VIRUS[b']CYBER DRAGON[/b]CYBER END DRAGONCYBER JARCYBER-STEINCYBER TWIN DRAGONDAIROKKAN (Sixth Sense)DARK ARMED DRAGONDARK HOLEDARKLORD ZERATODARK MAGICIAN OF CHAOSDECK DEVASTATION VIRUSDELINQUENT DUODEMISE, KING OF ARMAGEDDONDESTINY HERO - DISK COMMANDERDIMENSION FUSIONEPIDEMIC ERADICATION VIRUSEVIL HERO DARK GAIAEXCHANGE OF THE SPIRITEXODIA THE FORBIDDEN ONEFIBER JARGLADIATOR BEAST GYZARUSGOLD SARCOPHAGUSGRACEFUL CHARITYHARPIE'S FEATHER DUSTERIMPERIAL ORDERJUDGMENT DRAGONLAST TURNLAST WILLLIFE EQUALIZERLIMITER REMOVALMAGICAL EXPLOSIONMAGICAL SCIENTISTMAKYURA THE DESTRUCTORMEGAMORPHMEIFU NO SHISHA GOES (Gorz the Emissary of Darkness)MIRAGE OF NIGHTMAREMONSTER REBORNMORPHING JARNOBLEMAN OF CROSSOUTOCEAN DRAGON LORD - NEO-DAEDALUSOUKYUU NO TEPPEKI (Royal Impregnable Fortress)PAINFUL CHOICEPHANTOM OF CHAOSPOT OF GREEDPREMATURE BURIALRAIGEKIRETURN FROM THE DIFFERENT DIMENSIONREVERSAL QUIZRING OF DESTRUCTIONSANGANSELF-DESTRUCT BUTTONSHOUKAN SOU - SAMON PURISTO (Summon Priest)SINISTER SERPENTSKY SCOURGE NORLERASSNATCH STEALSNIPE HUNTERSUPERALLOY BEAST RAPTINUSTHE FORCEFUL SENTRYTHOUSAND-EYES RESTRICTTIME SEALTRAP DUSTSHOOTTREEBORN FROGTRIBE-INFECTING VIRUSTSUKUYOMIULTIMATE OFFERINGUNITED WE STANDVICTORY DRAGONWITCH OF THE BLACK FORESTYATA-GARASU NEW! - Accumulated Fortune, All-Out Attacks, Allure of Darkness, Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler, Arcana Force XXI - The World, Armed Samurai - Ben Kei, Batoru Mania (Battle Mania), Blasting the Ruins, Breaker the Magical Warrior, Card of Safe Return, Chimeratech Fortress Dragon (Chimeratech Fortress Dragon), Chimeratech Overdragon, Crush Card Virus, Cyber Dragon, Cyber End Dragon, Cyber Twin Dragon, Dark Armed Dragon, Darklord Zerato, Deck Devastation Virus, Demise, King of Armageddon, Epidemic Eradication Virus, Evil Hero Dark Gaia, Exodia the Forbidden One, Gladiator Beast Gyzarus, Gold Sarcophagus, Judgment Dragon, Life Equalizer, Limiter Removal, Magical Explosion, Megamorph, Meifu no Shisha Goes (Gorz the Emissary of Darkness), Monster Reborn, Morphing Jar, Nobleman of Crossout, Ocean Dragon Lord - Neo-Daedalus, Oukyuu no Teppeki (Royal Impregnable Fortress), Phantom of Chaos, Return from the Different Dimension, Reversal Quiz, Sangan, Self-Destruct Button, Shoukan Sou - Samon Purīsuto (Summon Priest), Sky Scourge Norleras, Snipe Hunter, Superalloy Beast Raptinus, Trap Dustshoot, Treeborn Frog, Ultimate Offering, United We Stand II. Limited CardsYou can ONLY use one of the following cards in the Deck, Extra Deck & Side Deck combined. CARD DESTRUCTIONCARD TROOPERCEASEFIRECHAIN STRIKEELEMENTAL HERO STRATOSGIANT TRUNADEGRAVITY BINDGREEN BABOON, DEFENDER OF THE FORESTHEAVY STORMLEVEL LIMIT - AREA BMAGIC CYLINDERMARSHMALLONMIRROR FORCENECROFACENIGHT ASSAILANTSPIRIT REAPERSWORDS OF REVEALING LIGHTTWIN-HEADED BEHEMOTH NEW! - Chain Strike, Necroface III. Semi-Limited CardsThere are no Semi-Limited cards in this format. NEW! - The following cards are no longer Limited: Advanced Ritual Art, Book of Moon, Brain Control, Cyber Dragon, D.D. Warrior Lady, Dandelion (Dandylion), Fissure, Foolish Burial, Future Fusion, Left Arm of the Forbidden One, Left Leg of the Forbidden One, Magical Stone Excavation, Magician of Faith, Manticore of Darkness, Mask of Darkness, Metamorphosis, Mind Crush, Monster Gate, Mystical Space Typhoon, Neo-Spacian Grand Mole, Ojama Trio, Ouke no Shinden (Temple of the Kings), Overload Fusion, Raiza the Storm Monarch, Reasoning, Rescue Cat, Right Arm of the Forbidden One, Right Leg of the Forbidden One, Scapegoat, Smashing Ground, The Transmigration Prophecy, Torrential Tribute, Wall of Revealing Light In an age when everybody disagrees over what the banlist should look like, I have cunningly constructed a banlist that is guaranteed to be hated by absolutely everybody. I would not be surprised if most people here read the first card on the list and stopped reading, considering that it happens to be one of the most controversial cards on here. [spoiler=The Reasoning Behind the List]All cards have a default position of 3, and are placed on the list only when it can be logically shown that keeping them at 3 would damage the game. Each card needs to be dealt with separately; there is no specific formula that you can plug in to determine where a card belongs. Most of the reasoning behind each ban/limit is covered by the categories listed below. However, note that these categories were created to reflect the general trends in the logic used; the logic used was not determined by the categories. (The only possible exception here is Category X, which is purely theoretical because there aren't actually any cards in the card pool that fall under it.) PROHIBITED Category 1) The card gives too large a reward too easily for too small a cost. Most of these cards are splashable, but not all; a theme support card that lets you draw 7 cards for no real cost would be banworthy under this, despite not being splashable. Example: Raigeki. Category 2) The card enables one or more OTK's and/or FTK's to be accomplished easily. Often, these cards are used solely for the purpose of OTK's and/or FTK's. Example: Magical Explosion. Category 3) The card invalidates a basic mechanical part of the game by effectively preventing it from ever being used with any merit; a good game does not turn its back on its basic mechanics. Example: Nobleman of Crossout (invalidates Flips). Category 4) Similar to number 3, the card invalidates a certain playstyle that would otherwise contribute to the game. Example: Cyber Dragon (invalidates Stall). Category 5) The underlying idea of the card's effect is, as a matter of principle, completely unacceptable in any form. Example: Victory Dragon. LIMITED Category A) The card cannot remain at 3 due to one or more of the banning conditions (probably Condition 1) but provides some benefit to the game at 1 that allows it to remain. Example: Mirror Force. Category B) The card cannot remain at 3 due to an unacceptable interaction with another copy of itself; at 1, however, it cannot interact with itself, and thus can remain legal. Example: Night Assailant. Category C) The card cannot remain at 3 for purely mechanical reasons that make multiple copies of it impossible; however, it can remain at 1, where there are no other copies with which to conflict. Example: Twin-Headed Behemoth. SEMI-LIMITED Category X) The card cannot remain at 3 due to an unacceptable interaction with two other copies of itself; at 2, however, it cannot interact with two other copies of itself, and thus can remain Semi-Limited. Example: [none available] Again, these classifications reflect the logic, and not the other way around; furthermore, each card is an individual case, so even if a card might seem to fall into a category, it might not belong in that place on the list - or even on the list at all. They're simply there to describe trends in logic, not set concrete policy. Category C is an example of this, since it was created specifically to reflect the treatment of one specific card, and applies to no other cards in the card pool; it was not decided on in advance and then used to determine the fate of Twin-Headed Behemoth. Because each card is handled individually, it is impossible to give an accurate summary of the reasoning involved without delving into each individual card on (or not on) the list. The above categories are the best I could do to give a general idea of what the logic typically involved. Anyhow, this topic is now open for discussion. Feel free to start complaining immediately! you made a mistake you banned it and unlimited it cyber dragon at the same time XD now i will look for other mistakes because you did do a huge joke banlist b4. OCEAN DRAGON LORD - NEO-DAEDALUS - we had a CHAOS EMPEROR DRAGON - ENVOY OF THE END and i didnt even realise it XD good call even though its ridiculously hard to summon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 .:pyramid:.: And you considered that thing, which has already been pointed out, worthy of quoting the entire first post, when it could just as easily been said with a single sentence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Summon Priest can only bring out Level 8 Synchros. Unlimit it in the meantime, until we get a Black Rose Dragon-like effect in a Level 8 Synchro. EDIT: Have you changed your mind again about Cathedral of Nobles? Last time I checked, you supported its continued Prohibition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
advicedog Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Summon Priest can only bring out Level 8 Synchros.You could always throw a minimize in that combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiro Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Summon Priest can only bring out Level 8 Synchros.You could always throw a minimize in that combo. Minimize is not a card. If you meant Minaturize, then it becomes a slow 3-card combo, which makes it actually ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
advicedog Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Summon Priest can only bring out Level 8 Synchros.You could always throw a minimize in that combo. Minimize is not a card. If you meant Minaturize' date=' then it becomes a slow 3-card combo, which makes it actually ok.[/quote']My mistake, dead tired etc. And yeah, it's hardly broken as a three-card combo. Minaturize can be taken out even after activation with an MST, so it's pretty balanced in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted August 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 its good' date=' but theres a question I got. Whys CyDra both banned and unlimited?[/quote'] Because I'm stupid. >_> It's banned. And what Synchros are we trying to avoid with the banning of Summon Priest? Summon Priest[DARK/Spellcaster/Effect/4/800/1600]This card cannot be Tributed. If this monster is Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned' date=' switch it to Defense Position. By sending this card you control, one Spell Card in your hand, and one Level 3 Tuner monster in your deck to the graveyard, destroy all cards on the field.[/i'] Black Rose Dragon, for one. If Summon Priest's text explicitly said that, it would have been banned in a heartbeat. So, here we at the very least have a kill-SP-to-save-BRD or kill-BRD-to-save-SP scenario. However, note that Summon Priest can be used to instantly summon the majority of Synchro Monsters (Rescue Cat, at least, is restricted to Level 6 and below), and that as more and more Synchro Monsters are released, the probability of it coming into conflict with another Synchro Monster becomes greater and greater. Eventually, we are almost certain to encounter a kill-one-card-to-save-two-cards scenario. Another less direct problem with Summon Priest is that it makes a mockery of the regular Synchro Summoning rules by being able to transform (at the cost of one Spell) into virtually any Synchro monster. (The main ones that it can't pull are Mist Wyrm, which needs 2 non-Tuners; cards like Light End Dragon with restrictions on the non-Tuners; and cards like Junk Warrior with restrictions on the Tuner that make the levels add up wrong.) But wait! This card cannot be Tributed. If this monster is Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned' date=' switch it to Defense Position. Once per turn, by discarding a Spell Card from your hand, search your Deck for a Level 4 monster and Special Summon it. That monster cannot attack this turn.[/quote'] That is the real effect. Note that it doesn't say a Level 4 or lower monster, but just a Level 4 monster. If this translation is correct, then it can only summon Level 8 Synchros with it's effect. In my opinion, this doesn't give you so many options that it's bannable. Also, I assume you didn't put Rescue Cat in this virtual combo, because if so, you would be able to summon Mist Worm. And yes, if you use Summon Priest with Rescue Cat, you can choose almost any Synchro Monster, but you'll also have to fill your deck with cards that are mainly needed in the deck only, and are dead draws in the hand. This makes it balanced, in my opinion. So, unban Summon Priest? Hmmm. When I looked it up when I got back here, it seems that I found a mistranslation. Either that, or I misread it, which is also possible. >_> That makes things more interesting. On the one hand, the card still has quite a field nuke effect: Summon Priest[DARK/Spellcaster/Effect/4/800/1600]This card cannot be Tributed. If this monster is Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned, switch it to Defense Position. Once per turn, by discarding one Spell Card from your hand and sending one "Rescue Cat" and one "X-Saber Airbellum" from your deck to your graveyard, destroy all cards on the field. It strikes me that, were this the actual text of the card, it would probably be banworthy, despite the deck dedication and dead draw risk involved. However, this is not the actual text of the card; rather, although only one card is needed to initiate it, it is the result of interaction between four cards (although it could be considered a one-card combo in the sense that only one specific card is needed in your control to initiate it). Now, which of these four do we kill? X-Saber Airbellum is clearly an innocent; its only "crime" is that it can be searched by Rescue Cat. So it stays at 3. That leaves us three possibilities: Summon Priest, Rescue Cat, and Black Rose Dragon. Now, on one hand, Black Rose Dragon could be considered the problem. It's the one that has a field nuke effect, and, quite frankly, is always going to have a field nuke effect no matter how it is Synchro Summoned. Now, unlike a complete reset button, a field nuke is not inherently harmful if it is costly or difficult enough (you'll notice that, for example, I've left Beast King Barbaros and Levia-Dragon - Daedalus legal), but even without Summon Priest and/or Rescue Cat, Black Rose Dragon still wouldn't be exceptionally difficult to summon - but at least it wouldn't be a one-card combo. On the other hand, with the exception of Synchro Monsters that have additional requirements on their summoning - requiring a specific Tuner or imposing restrictions on the non-Tuners - leaving both Rescue Cat and Summon Priest legal would still allow Summon Priest to transform into virtually any Synchro Monster at the cost of a single Spell Card; eventually, either the future Synchro Monsters would cause another conflict of this nature, or the future Synchro Monsters would be underpowered to the point where Summon Priest is the only acceptable strategy. (The third possibility is that Konami releases more powerful Synchros with increasingly specific summoning requirements, as they did with Fusions.) We are aware of the deck dedication involved, the monsters that need to be sent from the deck to the graveyard, and the exceptions to what Synchro Monsters Summon Priest can summon, so I'll take them to be understood here. With both Summon Priest and Rescue Cat legal, this is what Summon Priest's effect does: Summon Priest[DARK/Spellcaster/Effect/4/800/1600]This card cannot be Tributed. If this monster is Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned, switch it to Defense Position. Once per turn, by discarding a Spell Card from your hand, select and activate one of the following effects:Special Summon one Level 6 or lower Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Synchro Summon.)Send this card to the graveyard. Special Summon one Level 7 Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Synchro Summon.) You may Special Summon 1 Level 3 or lower Beast-Type monster from your deck. If you do, then it is destroyed during the End Phase.Send this card to the graveyard. Special Summon one Level 8 or higher Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Synchro Summon.)If this were the actual text of the card, it would be banned in a heartbeat, even if Black Rose Dragon didn't exist. The thing is that Summon Priest requires deck dedication and a combo with Rescue Cat in order to do all this, and even if their combo is deemed unacceptable, it is difficult to tell which should be banned. Now, is this all that different from Metamorphosis? Yes and no. On the one hand, they can both Special Summon a monster of the appropriate type that doesn't have some sort of protection ("This card cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon" in Metamorphosis's case; requiring a specific Tuner or imposing restrictions on the non-Tuners in Summon Priest's case). Both require some sort of deck dedication; Metamorphosis is more splashable, but in order to be used effectively, the deck needs to work to accommodate it. However, Metamorphosis requires both Metamorphosis in your hand and a monster on your field of exactly the right level - prboably a level higher than 4 - while Summon Priest just requires you to have Summon Priest (a Level 4 monster) on your field and any Spell Card at all in your hand. The difference in ease of use is significant. In fact, a one-card combo to Special Summon a monster from the Extra Deck is reminiscient not so much of Metamorphosis as of Cyber-Stein. (As the pool of Fusions and Synchros are different, these comparisons are largely irrelevant, but I thought I may as well bring them up before somebody else does.) To complicate matters further, Summon Priest alone can only summon Level 8 Synchros, while Rescue Cat can only summon Level 6 or below Synchros; since it's Level 7, Black Rose Dragon cannot be reached by either of them alone. Black Rose Dragon isn't difficult to summon compared to its field-wipe. On the other hand, the combination of Summon Priest and Rescue Cat might be unacceptable even without Black Rose Dragon. If one of them were banned, it might be feasible to save Black Rose Dragon, but banning Black Rose Dragon might not make it feasible to save both Summon Priest and Rescue Cat... Honestly, this is a difficult decision. I'm leaning towards banning Black Rose Dragon, then waiting to see what Konami does in terms of card design to decide if Summon Priest or Rescue Cat needs any list attention. Thoughts? this list says "Glad Format!!!!" Slowing down everything else but banning gyzarus... Glads will still be fast and will still dominate. Maybe they will' date=' maybe they won't. However, doing well is not equivalent to being worthy of list attention. Otherwise, we'd just ban everything until Toons became the top deck - and then we'd ban Toons, since, being the top deck, they'd be overpowered by that (unusual) definition. Summon Priest can only bring out Level 8 Synchros. Unlimit it in the meantime, until we get a Black Rose Dragon-like effect in a Level 8 Synchro. I'm thinking of putting it at 3, BRD at 0, and waiting to see what card design forces me to do with Summon Priest and Rescue Cat. EDIT: Have you changed your mind again about Cathedral of Nobles? Last time I checked' date=' you supported its continued Prohibition.[/quote'] Wait, I did? It must have been before my vacation, so I don't remember it very well. If there was anything at all wrong with Cathedral of Nobles, it would lie in the trap activation effect. Makyura OTK, of course, doesn't apply here. On one hand, it tampers with basic game mechanics by removing the inherent cost that all traps share - the cost of speed. On the other hand, even though one of the conditions covers tampering with basic game mechanics, tampering with basic game mechanics is not inherently banworthy. Remember that Macro Cosmos is at 3. The biggest threat that I can see would be something like 3 Jar of Greed + 3 Legacy of Yata-Garasu + 3 Reckless Greed or something like that to turbo through the deck, but I don't see that as being directly worthy of list attention. But do you have a link to what I said before? Who knows, I might convince myself. >.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 EDIT: Have you changed your mind again about Cathedral of Nobles? Last time I checked' date=' you supported its continued Prohibition.[/quote'] Wait, I did? It must have been before my vacation, so I don't remember it very well. If there was anything at all wrong with Cathedral of Nobles, it would lie in the trap activation effect. Makyura OTK, of course, doesn't apply here. On one hand, it tampers with basic game mechanics by removing the inherent cost that all traps share - the cost of speed. On the other hand, even though one of the conditions covers tampering with basic game mechanics, tampering with basic game mechanics is not inherently banworthy. Remember that Macro Cosmos is at 3. The biggest threat that I can see would be something like 3 Jar of Greed + 3 Legacy of Yata-Garasu + 3 Reckless Greed or something like that to turbo through the deck, but I don't see that as being directly worthy of list attention. But do you have a link to what I said before? Who knows, I might convince myself. >.> I'm currently against unbanning this card on the grounds that it prevents prenegation (i.e. Dust Tornado-ing a Trap that has just been Set) and because of the Jar/Legacy/Reckless/Housekeeping deck-thinning system. But Makyura OTK? Come on, people, read the card. You can't Set Spells and Traps during the Battle Phase, so Makyura OTK doesn't work with this card. Unless that wasn't you. In which case, my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted August 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 EDIT: Have you changed your mind again about Cathedral of Nobles? Last time I checked' date=' you supported its continued Prohibition.[/quote'] Wait, I did? It must have been before my vacation, so I don't remember it very well. If there was anything at all wrong with Cathedral of Nobles, it would lie in the trap activation effect. Makyura OTK, of course, doesn't apply here. On one hand, it tampers with basic game mechanics by removing the inherent cost that all traps share - the cost of speed. On the other hand, even though one of the conditions covers tampering with basic game mechanics, tampering with basic game mechanics is not inherently banworthy. Remember that Macro Cosmos is at 3. The biggest threat that I can see would be something like 3 Jar of Greed + 3 Legacy of Yata-Garasu + 3 Reckless Greed or something like that to turbo through the deck, but I don't see that as being directly worthy of list attention. But do you have a link to what I said before? Who knows, I might convince myself. >.> I'm currently against unbanning this card on the grounds that it prevents prenegation (i.e. Dust Tornado-ing a Trap that has just been Set) and because of the Jar/Legacy/Reckless/Housekeeping deck-thinning system. But Makyura OTK? Come on, people, read the card. You can't Set Spells and Traps during the Battle Phase, so Makyura OTK doesn't work with this card. Unless that wasn't you. In which case, my bad. Looks like my style of writing. Hmmm. I had forgotten the prenegation issue. I'll need to think about this some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
「tea.leaf」 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Is this the coveted perfect meta? Why Dandelion at 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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