Guest Chaos Pudding Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 What happened in the course of 7 months that changed Monster Reborn from an unequivocally broken card to a card that's A-OK? Did they errata it? As far as I can tell, they didn't, so what's the deal? `It's still just about the most lucksack card in the game, and can literally allow a player to pull a game win that would have been total loss had that player not topdecked Monster Reborn. `It's THE most splashable card in the game, and EVERY deck that has a hope of being competitive Mains it (I.E: If you don't run it, you will, 9 times out of 10, lose). `It approaches ridiculous levels of abuse. Your opponent finally wiped out your Stardust Dragon with a well-timed Brain Control? No worries, just Monster Reborn! Just feel like bringing back that old used Goyo? Monster Reborn is your answer! `It's among the most mindless cards that is still legal. Monster in Graveyard(s) + Monster Reborn = Almost certain tempo shift, with only 1 card. Did I cover everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JG. Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Why should they ban it? Some cards need to be game changing. And i think it's limited so unless you run mariks deck you can only use it once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skuldur Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Why should they ban it? Some cards need to be game changing. And i think it's limited so unless you run mariks deck you can only use it once. MSE says hi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonisanoob Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 prems better :L jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♫Griffinsusername♫ Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 I say that they should make a new MR with a limit, like lv 6 or lower or ban it. It gets abused too easily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Why should they ban it? Some cards need to be game changing. And i think it's limited so unless you run mariks deck you can only use it once. MSE says hi Guess what card Marik used to bring back Monster Reborn? Anyhow, you can only use Chaos Emperor Dragon once unless you use some sort of recursion. Unban that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Pain Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 This topic reminds me, why the heck havent they banned mirror force or other broken cards like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Mirror Force prevents mindless aggro, but is unacceptable at 3 because then it would totally kill aggro in any form. Therefore, it's best position is at 1. Torrential Tribute is supposed to add a similar element to the game, though it is debated by some whether it actually deserves to be limited. Monster Reborn is the least broken of the first trio of broken cards. (Harpy's Feather Duster, Raigeki, Reborn.) In fact, it's less broken than the majority of the cards on the banlist. However, that does not provide sufficient justification to keep it in the format. Generic recursion does nothing for the game, and Monster Reborn's negatives are far too strong to ignore. It's a power card, in that it's activation will likely have a significant impact on the game, but unlike other power cards like Heavy Storm or Mirror Force, it does not add anything to the game by existing. Additionally, using Heavy while you control S/T or while your opponent only controls 1 is unfavorable. Usually, using Mirror Force while your opponent only controls one face-up ATK-position monster is usually considered unfavorable as well because you want to gain as much advantage as possible from its activation, as well as keep the threat of it looking over your opponent for the longest time possible. Monster Reborn has no real conditions. It does not require or prefer some certain combination of cards on the field for a favorable activation, nor does it have a discard cost that will restrict when you can/want to use it. It only requires that you or your opponent have monsters in the Graveyard. Basically, it requires that you're playing a game of Yugioh and that both of you aren't running burn decks that use no monsters or that both of you aren't running Macro. It's a one-for-one, but it can grab cards that aren't supposed to be grabbed at the expense of one card. You normally use 2 cards for a Synchro Summon, therefore, a Synchro monster is roughly the equivalent in gamechanging abiliy to 2 other cards. Using a Monster Reborn on Stardust, Thought Ruler, or Goyo is therefore an extremely destructive move that can be pulled on your opponent, for an unacceptably small cost, and regardless of your prior situation. Basically, you're losing and you draw Monster Reborn, now your chances of winning are significantly increased, depending on your Graveyard. You're losing and you draw Heavy Storm? Only helpful if your opponent controls multiple S/T and they're also the reason for your troubled game-position. You're losing and you draw Mirror Force? Only helpful if it can survive long enough to be activated, and on top of that, if your opponent doesn't have a Stardust around to negate it. etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazer Yoshi Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Monster Reborn, well, I don't know. But it should NEVER be less restricted than Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Supreme Gamesmaster Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 I think the only reason this is still alive is because of Reborn wars. I'm glad it's still here, though, we need some generic recursion. :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixty Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Guess what card Marik used to bring back Monster Reborn? lolanimetrivia Monster Reborn is a card that generally cannot combo with anything to get a great result. It's just a simple one-for-one card that can generally turn a game around. Lightning Vortex can sometimes ruin your spectacular field advantage, but it's not banworthy. In fact, a lot of cards can turn a game around. Furthermore, it's most likely not going to be banned for a while. Plus, we need at least one of the Reborn Trio to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkerai Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Monster Reborn shouldn't be banned unless we get Call back or a new generic recursion card?!As for Monster Reborn being in every deck what about Macro Decks...looks in Macro Deck...no not there, well at least most Macro Decks don't have monster Reborn. Oh and also I think I heard something about them unbanning a bunch of long time banned cards *puts Jar Rober in Side Deck*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PikaPerson01 Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Monster Reborn is a card that generally cannot combo with anything to get a great result. It's not a combo based card. As long as you're playing a standard game of Yu-Gi-Oh' date=' neither runs a burn deck, and neither runs a macro deck, you should eventually get a monster in the graveyard. <_< It's just a simple one-for-one card that can generally turn a game around. It turns a game around too easily, is in no way situational, and has no cost. Lightning Vortex can sometimes ruin your spectacular field advantage, but it's not banworthy. Lightning Vortex's cost (a discard) makes it pretty even. It only harms terrible players who over commit to the field and have no response to a Lightning Vortex. In fact, a lot of cards can turn a game around. A top decked Chaos Emperor Dragon can turn the game around. Likewise, a 1900 attack monster when your opponent has a full field of mechanical chasers can turn the field around. Obviously, the claim of "a card that can turn the around is bannable" is incorrect. Furthermore, it's most likely not going to be banned for a while. Knowing the idiots at Konami, and the terrible players who whine at tournaments, you're probably right. Plus, we need at least one of the Reborn Trio to stay. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Raigeki doesn't combo well. Let's unban Raigeki! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkerai Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Raigeki doesn't combo well. Let's unban Raigeki! and our next story tonight mass hystaria all over the world as they unban Got of Greed, Raigeki, and Harpies Feather Duster Yes mwahaha!!...wait *looks at guy beating him with Gladiator Beast Swarm* Quick unban Raigeki, before he summons a Laquari! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 The reason people say it's ok is because they are stupid. Monster Reborn is one of the most effective and efficient game changing cards out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletMan Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 They pulled Monster Reborn in but restricted Call of the Haunted for a trade. then Premature went away. So I think were good with this card now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Star Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Guess what card Marik used to bring back Monster Reborn? lolanimetrivia Monster Reborn is a card that generally cannot combo with anything to get a great result. It's just a simple one-for-one card that can generally turn a game around. Lightning Vortex can sometimes ruin your spectacular field advantage' date=' but it's not banworthy. In fact, a lot of cards can turn a game around. Furthermore, it's most likely not going to be banned for a while. Plus, we need at least one of the Reborn Trio to stay.[/quote'] Lightning Vortex requires the discarding of a card, thus making it a -1 to start. Monster Reborn has absolutely no cost and it can bring back an opponent's monster as well. While I do like having Monster Reborn at 1, I know that it needs to be banned. Costless revival does nothing good for the game, and Monster Reborn is costless revival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armageddon08 Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 This is basically the only good recursion card in spell form that the current format has(out of the non banned ones). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 This is basically the only good recursion card in spell form that the current format has(out of the non banned ones).Your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 This card allows many deck types to compete using types that don't have inherent recursion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
「tea.leaf」 Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Disk Commander committed suicide, that's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuki ni Mau Majin Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Guess what card Marik used to bring back Monster Reborn? lolanimetrivia Monster Reborn is a card that generally cannot combo with anything to get a great result. It's just a simple one-for-one card that can generally turn a game around. Lightning Vortex can sometimes ruin your spectacular field advantage' date=' but it's not banworthy. In fact, a lot of cards can turn a game around. Furthermore, it's most likely not going to be banned for a while. Plus, we need at least one of the Reborn Trio to stay.[/quote'] Lightning Vortex requires the discarding of a card, thus making it a -1 to start. Monster Reborn has absolutely no cost and it can bring back an opponent's monster as well. While I do like having Monster Reborn at 1, I know that it needs to be banned. Costless revival does nothing good for the game, and Monster Reborn is costless revival. Lightning Vortex is only a -1 if you use it wrong. Your opponent controls a face-up REZD. You use Lightning Vortex. -1 Your opponent controls two face-up REDRUM and a Spirit Reaper. You use Lightning Vortex. +2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I think the only reason this is still alive is because of Reborn wars. I'm glad it's still here' date=' though, we need some generic recursion. :?[/quote'] My resposne to Genzo's assertion that Monster Reborn should be legal on the grounds that recursion is a fundamental aspect of the game seems appropriate here, so I'll repost it: Drawing is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Pot of Greed. Attacking is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning. Searching is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Witch of the Black Forest. Removal is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Ring of Destruction. Recursion is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Premature Burial. Just because some aspect of the game is a fundamental part of the game doesn't mean that every single card that relates to that aspect of the game automatically deserves to remain legal. There are tons of draw cards that can be used in decks of all types. PoG stays banned. All decks can include monsters of high attack capability. BLS stays banned. Sangan works for searching. WotBF stays banned. There are many' date=' many cards that create removal (like the earlier-mentioned smashing ground.) RoD stays banned. There [b']aren't[/b] recursion cards to the point that any decktype can have one. Monster Reborn doesn't get banned, and PB stays banned since after all we have Monster Reborn. First of all, Sangan is banworthy. However, since you can't even tell that Monster Reborn is banworthy, I don't expect you to understand that. Your assumption that all decks are entitled to have recursion is fallacious; recursion is not so fundamental to gameplay as, for example, attacking, that every deck in existence deserves to have a piece of recursion. However, since you claim that no other generic recursion exists, let's take a look at a few examples of other generic recursion, shall we? The Shallow Grave - Revives any of your monsters. Spear Cretin - Revives any of your monsters. Autonomous Action Unit - Revives any of your opponent's monsters. Symbol of Heritage - Revives any of your monsters when you have three in the graveyard. (A proper list would only have a handful of Limited monsters and no Semi-Limited monsters, so those few that can't be run at 3 are negligible.) The Creator - Revives any of your monsters. Light and Darkness Dragon - Revives any of your monsters. Limit Reverse - If any deck can include a monster of high ATK - which you admitted when saying that Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning should remain banned - then any deck can also include a monster of low ATK. Black Garden - It requires Plants to use, but makes itself splashable by generating its own Plants. Not quite as splashable as some of the others due to only multiples of 800 being available, but these values (especially 2400) are not exactly uncommon. Monster Reincarnation - Returns any monster in your graveyard to your hand. A Feather of the Phoenix - Returns any card in your graveyard to the top of your deck. Cyber Valley - Returns any card in your graveyard to the top of your deck. Pot of Avarice - Allows you to recycle several monsters into your deck AND is a +1. The Transmigration Prophesy - Allows you to recycle two cards of your choice. By the way, this card should be at 3. All of these are forms of recursion; all of these are highly splashable. Monster Reborn is also better than all of them. Here is what you thought you were saying: "Recursion is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include recursion." However, what you were arguing was actually a far more narrow statement. Any deck can toss in a The Shallow Grave. Why do The Shallow Grave and Spear Cretin not excuse the absence of Monster Reborn? Because they let the opponent revive a monster too. You want the recursion to be "one-sided" - benefiting only the user and not the opponent. Therefore, what your statement really said was: "One-sided recursion is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion." Why doesn't Autonomous Action Unit count, then? Because it's from the opponent's graveyard and not your own. "One-sided recursion from your own graveyard is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion from their own graveyards." Well, how about Monster Reincarnation? The Transmigration Prophesy? Cyber Valley? A Feather of the Phoenix? Pot of Avarice? Don't they count? No, of course not. Why? Because the recycled monster isn't Special Summoned. "One-sided recursion that Special Summons a monster from your own graveyard is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon a monster from their own graveyards." In that case, surely The Creator counts? Wait, he doesn't make up for Monster Reborn either? Why not? Because he has a cost; it costs a card or two to get him onto the field, and then another card as a discard to Special Summon something. Costs, apparently, aren't allowed either - at least not any remotely significant, since I suppose we can at least agree that 800 Life Points from Premature Burial doesn't qualify as a significant cost. Light and Darkness Dragon has the same problem; the two tributes and the field nuke are too expensive. "One-sided recursion that Special Summons a monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon a monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs." Black Garden and Limit Reverse should work, then, shouldn't they? No, of course you're not going to count them either. Those can only revive some of the monsters in your graveyard, and the recursion we're looking for apparently needs to have the ability to bring back any monster at all (unless a Summon condition like that of a Nomi would prevent this). "One-sided recursion that Special Summons any monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon any monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs." All right, all right. After all of this, Symbol of Heritage still works. It's one-sided. It Special Summons the monster. The monster comes from your own graveyard. The monster can be any monster in the card pool other than the handful of monsters that would be Limited on a proper list. It has no cost at all. Surely, surely, surely Symbol of Heritage makes up for Monster Reborn's absence. Alas, it does not. Symbol of Heritage requires setup to work, and the card we're looking for needs to be useful in any situation in which we have a monster in the graveyard and want it back. Any acceptable substitute for Monster Reborn apparently must require no significant setup (I say "significant" because having the copy of the monster that you want revived in the graveyard could be taken as "setup", but is most certainly insignificant). So, we finally come to the final thesis: "One-sided recursion that Special Summons any monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost or requiring any significant setup is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon any monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs or requiring any significant setup." Take a good long look at this thesis. Think about it carefully. What it says is that every deck in the game is entitled to the ability to run a monster recursion card with all of the following properties: 1) The monster in question must Special Summoned; no wishy-washy return-to-hand/deck allowed. 2) The monster in question must come from your own graveyard. 3) The monster in question must have the capacity to be virtually any monster in the card pool. 4) The recursion card must not require significant costs. 5) The recursion card must not require significant setup. 6) The recursion card must not let the opponent get a piece of the action. And all of these properties must belong to a recursion card that can be splashed into virtually every deck in the game - and I only say "virtually" to exclude no-monsters decks, HOTU-Exodia, and other weird stuff of that nature. Remove any of the six restrictions above, and one of the cards I listed above can replace Monster Reborn. I'm going to repeat your final thesis again, because it's important that you understand what you're really trying to say: "One-sided recursion that Special Summons any monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost or requiring any significant setup is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon any monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs or requiring any significant setup." This isn't just splashable recursion that you're saying is fundamental to the game - this is something far greater, a form of recursion that has a laundry list of additional properties and benefits. To say that something of this nature is "fundamental" to the game is ludicrous - the game wouldn't fall to pieces if setup was required, or costs were required, or one-sidedness wasn't required, or limitations on what can be summoned were allowed, or the opponent's graveyard was allowed, or the recursion didn't need to take the form of a Special Summoning. In fact, the majority of these properties don't seem even remotely fundamental to the game. Oh, and all of this is completely ignoring themed recursion, since you only asked for splashable recursion. Yes, of course the cards that I'm listing aren't as powerful as Monster Reborn is. Do you think that means that I'm being unfair? Go back to the Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity argument, and look at why you said that they should remain banned: There are tons of draw cards that can be used in decks of all types. PoG stays banned. Do you think that those other splashable draw cards are as even nearly good as Pot of Greed? Is Upstart Goblin on the level of Graceful Charity? Hand Destruction' date=' perhaps? Or maybe Card Trooper? Is Dark World Dealings anything close to Graceful Charity? Is Jar of Greed even in the same league as its big brother Pot? No, of course not; none of them are as strong as Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity, nor are they as universally splashable. But that doesn't stop Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity from being worthy of the banhammer. "[i']One-sided recursion that Special Summons any monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost or requiring any significant setup is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon any monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs or requiring any significant setup.[/i]" You can't really believe this. Because when you get right down to it, nothing about these conditions and constraints is fundamental to the game. And that is why "we need recursion" is not a valid argument for keeping this monstrosity legal. Monster Reborn is a card that generally cannot combo with anything to get a great result. Just like Raigeki. It's just a simple one-for-one card that can generally turn a game around. Just like The Forceful Sentry. Lightning Vortex can sometimes ruin your spectacular field advantage' date=' but it's not banworthy.[/quote'] Aside from the discard cost, here's one very significant difference between cards like Lightning Vortex and Monster Reborn: Lightning Vortex's effectiveness depends entirely on the opponent. Monster Reborn has largely the same effectiveness regardless of the opponent's field. No matter what cards the opponent has, you can still get back any monster you want. In fact, the only effect that the opponent could potentially have on it is to give you additional options in the form of the monsters in their graveyard. In any case, Monster Reborn does not depend on your opponent's actions. Lightning Vortex is a completely different matter. It is largely ineffective unless the opponent has already swarmed the field - only when the opponent has three face-up monsters out does it become a +1. By committing so many cards to the field, the opponent has assumed the risk of their destruction, and therefore if the opponent has so many monsters out, they are probably either protected or floaters; in either case, Lightning Vortex isn't terribly useful, and certainly can't reverse the flow of the game. If the opponent has placed significantly large numbers of monsters on the field without regard for mass removal, then the opponent has not played skillfully. In any case, the opponent can always avert the Lightning Vortex threat by not committing large numbers of unprotected monsters that don't pay for themselves to the field simultaneously; unless the opponent co-operates and summons a bunch of monsters, Lightning Vortex is powerless. Monster Reborn has no such need of co-operation; it would be nice if the opponent were to provide us with a nice monster in their grave, but it doesn't matter too much, as our own grave is perfectly available. There's also the question of combos, which, despite what some of you seem to think, do exist for Monster Reborn. Through the use of floaters or other monsters with powerful effects, Monster Reborn's initial +0 can become more and more positive, as the monster summoned by its effect proceeds to use its own effect to help you. It's advantage that keeps generating more advantage, and while Simon might not mind thing spiraling outward like this, it's certainly not the harmless combo-less +0 that you people seem to make it out to be. It doesn't need to combo with anything - another of its dangerous virtues - but it certainly can if it wants too. Lightning Vortex, on the other hand, blows stuff up and then...nothing. That's it. It's over. The monster card zones of the destroyed monsters don't sprout Tokens. Nothing more happens. In fact' date=' a lot of cards can turn a game around.[/quote'] Very few cards can be costlessly splashed into virtually any deck and activated to so completely reverse the flow of the game in virtually any situation. Furthermore' date=' it's most likely not going to be banned for a while. [/quote'] I rate this Konami/10. Plus' date=' we need at least one of the Reborn Trio to stay.[/quote'] Go read the Six Conditions argument above. Monster Reborn shouldn't be banned unless we get Call back or a new generic recursion card?! Go read the Six Conditions argument above. As for Monster Reborn being in every deck what about Macro Decks...looks in Macro Deck...no not there' date=' well at least most Macro Decks don't have monster Reborn.[/quote'] I heard about a deck called HOTU-Exodia that doesn't run Pot of Greed or Graceful Charity. Let's legalize them too. Oh and also I think I heard something about them unbanning a bunch of long time banned cards *puts Jar Rober in Side Deck*. No. Raigeki doesn't combo well. Let's unban Raigeki! and our next story tonight mass hystaria all over the world as they unban Got of Greed' date=' Raigeki, and Harpies Feather Duster Yes mwahaha!!...wait *looks at guy beating him with Gladiator Beast Swarm* Quick unban Raigeki, before he summons a Laquari![/quote'] No. They pulled Monster Reborn in but restricted Call of the Haunted for a trade. then Premature went away. So I think were good with this card now. Go read the Six Conditions argument above. This is basically the only good recursion card in spell form that the current format has(out of the non banned ones). Go read the Six Conditions argument above. This card allows many deck types to compete using types that don't have inherent recursion. I am trying as hard as I can to think of a single deck that has ever been made competitive by the presence of a random piece of generic recursion that would be noncompetitive otherwise. The only thing I can think of that even comes close to that is the use of Disk Commander in Perfect Circle Monarchs' date=' which benefited greatly from Premature Burial, but PCM would have worked without Premature Burial, and Disk Commander is banworthy anyhow. Oh, and need I remind us all that PCM also ran themed recursion of its own in the form of Fear Monger, making it completely irrelevant here? Guess what card Marik used to bring back Monster Reborn? lolanimetrivia Monster Reborn is a card that generally cannot combo with anything to get a great result. It's just a simple one-for-one card that can generally turn a game around. Lightning Vortex can sometimes ruin your spectacular field advantage' date=' but it's not banworthy. In fact, a lot of cards can turn a game around. Furthermore, it's most likely not going to be banned for a while. Plus, we need at least one of the Reborn Trio to stay.[/quote'] Lightning Vortex requires the discarding of a card, thus making it a -1 to start. Monster Reborn has absolutely no cost and it can bring back an opponent's monster as well. While I do like having Monster Reborn at 1, I know that it needs to be banned. Costless revival does nothing good for the game, and Monster Reborn is costless revival. Lightning Vortex is only a -1 if you use it wrong. Your opponent controls a face-up REZD. You use Lightning Vortex. -1 Your opponent controls two face-up REDRUM and a Spirit Reaper. You use Lightning Vortex. +2 If the opponent doesn't stupidly overcommit to the field without using floaters, protection, or anything else of that sort, Lightning Vortex will not generate advantage, and unless you can alter your opponent's deck there isn't a single thing you can do about it. Also, the last example is a +1, not a +2. You fail mathematics forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuki ni Mau Majin Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I think the only reason this is still alive is because of Reborn wars. I'm glad it's still here' date=' though, we need some generic recursion. :?[/quote'] My resposne to Genzo's assertion that Monster Reborn should be legal on the grounds that recursion is a fundamental aspect of the game seems appropriate here, so I'll repost it: Drawing is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Pot of Greed. Attacking is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning. Searching is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Witch of the Black Forest. Removal is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Ring of Destruction. Recursion is a fundamental part of the game. Unban Premature Burial. Just because some aspect of the game is a fundamental part of the game doesn't mean that every single card that relates to that aspect of the game automatically deserves to remain legal. There are tons of draw cards that can be used in decks of all types. PoG stays banned. All decks can include monsters of high attack capability. BLS stays banned. Sangan works for searching. WotBF stays banned. There are many' date=' many cards that create removal (like the earlier-mentioned smashing ground.) RoD stays banned. There [b']aren't[/b] recursion cards to the point that any decktype can have one. Monster Reborn doesn't get banned, and PB stays banned since after all we have Monster Reborn. First of all, Sangan is banworthy. However, since you can't even tell that Monster Reborn is banworthy, I don't expect you to understand that. Your assumption that all decks are entitled to have recursion is fallacious; recursion is not so fundamental to gameplay as, for example, attacking, that every deck in existence deserves to have a piece of recursion. However, since you claim that no other generic recursion exists, let's take a look at a few examples of other generic recursion, shall we? The Shallow Grave - Revives any of your monsters. Spear Cretin - Revives any of your monsters. Autonomous Action Unit - Revives any of your opponent's monsters. Symbol of Heritage - Revives any of your monsters when you have three in the graveyard. (A proper list would only have a handful of Limited monsters and no Semi-Limited monsters, so those few that can't be run at 3 are negligible.) The Creator - Revives any of your monsters. Light and Darkness Dragon - Revives any of your monsters. Limit Reverse - If any deck can include a monster of high ATK - which you admitted when saying that Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning should remain banned - then any deck can also include a monster of low ATK. Black Garden - It requires Plants to use, but makes itself splashable by generating its own Plants. Not quite as splashable as some of the others due to only multiples of 800 being available, but these values (especially 2400) are not exactly uncommon. Monster Reincarnation - Returns any monster in your graveyard to your hand. A Feather of the Phoenix - Returns any card in your graveyard to the top of your deck. Cyber Valley - Returns any card in your graveyard to the top of your deck. Pot of Avarice - Allows you to recycle several monsters into your deck AND is a +1. The Transmigration Prophesy - Allows you to recycle two cards of your choice. By the way, this card should be at 3. All of these are forms of recursion; all of these are highly splashable. Monster Reborn is also better than all of them. Here is what you thought you were saying: "Recursion is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include recursion." However, what you were arguing was actually a far more narrow statement. Any deck can toss in a The Shallow Grave. Why do The Shallow Grave and Spear Cretin not excuse the absence of Monster Reborn? Because they let the opponent revive a monster too. You want the recursion to be "one-sided" - benefiting only the user and not the opponent. Therefore, what your statement really said was: "One-sided recursion is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion." Why doesn't Autonomous Action Unit count, then? Because it's from the opponent's graveyard and not your own. "One-sided recursion from your own graveyard is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion from their own graveyards." Well, how about Monster Reincarnation? The Transmigration Prophesy? Cyber Valley? A Feather of the Phoenix? Pot of Avarice? Don't they count? No, of course not. Why? Because the recycled monster isn't Special Summoned. "One-sided recursion that Special Summons a monster from your own graveyard is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon a monster from their own graveyards." In that case, surely The Creator counts? Wait, he doesn't make up for Monster Reborn either? Why not? Because he has a cost; it costs a card or two to get him onto the field, and then another card as a discard to Special Summon something. Costs, apparently, aren't allowed either - at least not any remotely significant, since I suppose we can at least agree that 800 Life Points from Premature Burial doesn't qualify as a significant cost. Light and Darkness Dragon has the same problem; the two tributes and the field nuke are too expensive. "One-sided recursion that Special Summons a monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon a monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs." Black Garden and Limit Reverse should work, then, shouldn't they? No, of course you're not going to count them either. Those can only revive some of the monsters in your graveyard, and the recursion we're looking for apparently needs to have the ability to bring back any monster at all (unless a Summon condition like that of a Nomi would prevent this). "One-sided recursion that Special Summons any monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon any monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs." All right, all right. After all of this, Symbol of Heritage still works. It's one-sided. It Special Summons the monster. The monster comes from your own graveyard. The monster can be any monster in the card pool other than the handful of monsters that would be Limited on a proper list. It has no cost at all. Surely, surely, surely Symbol of Heritage makes up for Monster Reborn's absence. Alas, it does not. Symbol of Heritage requires setup to work, and the card we're looking for needs to be useful in any situation in which we have a monster in the graveyard and want it back. Any acceptable substitute for Monster Reborn apparently must require no significant setup (I say "significant" because having the copy of the monster that you want revived in the graveyard could be taken as "setup", but is most certainly insignificant). So, we finally come to the final thesis: "One-sided recursion that Special Summons any monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost or requiring any significant setup is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon any monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs or requiring any significant setup." Take a good long look at this thesis. Think about it carefully. What it says is that every deck in the game is entitled to the ability to run a monster recursion card with all of the following properties: 1) The monster in question must Special Summoned; no wishy-washy return-to-hand/deck allowed. 2) The monster in question must come from your own graveyard. 3) The monster in question must have the capacity to be virtually any monster in the card pool. 4) The recursion card must not require significant costs. 5) The recursion card must not require significant setup. 6) The recursion card must not let the opponent get a piece of the action. And all of these properties must belong to a recursion card that can be splashed into virtually every deck in the game - and I only say "virtually" to exclude no-monsters decks, HOTU-Exodia, and other weird stuff of that nature. Remove any of the six restrictions above, and one of the cards I listed above can replace Monster Reborn. I'm going to repeat your final thesis again, because it's important that you understand what you're really trying to say: "One-sided recursion that Special Summons any monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost or requiring any significant setup is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon any monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs or requiring any significant setup." This isn't just splashable recursion that you're saying is fundamental to the game - this is something far greater, a form of recursion that has a laundry list of additional properties and benefits. To say that something of this nature is "fundamental" to the game is ludicrous - the game wouldn't fall to pieces if setup was required, or costs were required, or one-sidedness wasn't required, or limitations on what can be summoned were allowed, or the opponent's graveyard was allowed, or the recursion didn't need to take the form of a Special Summoning. In fact, the majority of these properties don't seem even remotely fundamental to the game. Oh, and all of this is completely ignoring themed recursion, since you only asked for splashable recursion. Yes, of course the cards that I'm listing aren't as powerful as Monster Reborn is. Do you think that means that I'm being unfair? Go back to the Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity argument, and look at why you said that they should remain banned: There are tons of draw cards that can be used in decks of all types. PoG stays banned. Do you think that those other splashable draw cards are as even nearly good as Pot of Greed? Is Upstart Goblin on the level of Graceful Charity? Hand Destruction' date=' perhaps? Or maybe Card Trooper? Is Dark World Dealings anything close to Graceful Charity? Is Jar of Greed even in the same league as its big brother Pot? No, of course not; none of them are as strong as Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity, nor are they as universally splashable. But that doesn't stop Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity from being worthy of the banhammer. "[i']One-sided recursion that Special Summons any monster from your own graveyard without requiring the payment of any significant cost or requiring any significant setup is a fundamental part of gameplay, and therefore all decks are entitled to have the ability to include one-sided recursion that Special Summon any monster from their own graveyards without requiring the payments of any significant costs or requiring any significant setup.[/i]" You can't really believe this. Because when you get right down to it, nothing about these conditions and constraints is fundamental to the game. And that is why "we need recursion" is not a valid argument for keeping this monstrosity legal. Monster Reborn is a card that generally cannot combo with anything to get a great result. Just like Raigeki. It's just a simple one-for-one card that can generally turn a game around. Just like The Forceful Sentry. Lightning Vortex can sometimes ruin your spectacular field advantage' date=' but it's not banworthy.[/quote'] Aside from the discard cost, here's one very significant difference between cards like Lightning Vortex and Monster Reborn: Lightning Vortex's effectiveness depends entirely on the opponent. Monster Reborn has largely the same effectiveness regardless of the opponent's field. No matter what cards the opponent has, you can still get back any monster you want. In fact, the only effect that the opponent could potentially have on it is to give you additional options in the form of the monsters in their graveyard. In any case, Monster Reborn does not depend on your opponent's actions. Lightning Vortex is a completely different matter. It is largely ineffective unless the opponent has already swarmed the field - only when the opponent has three face-up monsters out does it become a +1. By committing so many cards to the field, the opponent has assumed the risk of their destruction, and therefore if the opponent has so many monsters out, they are probably either protected or floaters; in either case, Lightning Vortex isn't terribly useful, and certainly can't reverse the flow of the game. If the opponent has placed significantly large numbers of monsters on the field without regard for mass removal, then the opponent has not played skillfully. In any case, the opponent can always avert the Lightning Vortex threat by not committing large numbers of unprotected monsters that don't pay for themselves to the field simultaneously; unless the opponent co-operates and summons a bunch of monsters, Lightning Vortex is powerless. Monster Reborn has no such need of co-operation; it would be nice if the opponent were to provide us with a nice monster in their grave, but it doesn't matter too much, as our own grave is perfectly available. There's also the question of combos, which, despite what some of you seem to think, do exist for Monster Reborn. Through the use of floaters or other monsters with powerful effects, Monster Reborn's initial +0 can become more and more positive, as the monster summoned by its effect proceeds to use its own effect to help you. It's advantage that keeps generating more advantage, and while Simon might not mind thing spiraling outward like this, it's certainly not the harmless combo-less +0 that you people seem to make it out to be. It doesn't need to combo with anything - another of its dangerous virtues - but it certainly can if it wants too. Lightning Vortex, on the other hand, blows stuff up and then...nothing. That's it. It's over. The monster card zones of the destroyed monsters don't sprout Tokens. Nothing more happens. In fact' date=' a lot of cards can turn a game around.[/quote'] Very few cards can be costlessly splashed into virtually any deck and activated to so completely reverse the flow of the game in virtually any situation. Furthermore' date=' it's most likely not going to be banned for a while. [/quote'] I rate this Konami/10. Plus' date=' we need at least one of the Reborn Trio to stay.[/quote'] Go read the Six Conditions argument above. Monster Reborn shouldn't be banned unless we get Call back or a new generic recursion card?! Go read the Six Conditions argument above. As for Monster Reborn being in every deck what about Macro Decks...looks in Macro Deck...no not there' date=' well at least most Macro Decks don't have monster Reborn.[/quote'] I heard about a deck called HOTU-Exodia that doesn't run Pot of Greed or Graceful Charity. Let's legalize them too. Oh and also I think I heard something about them unbanning a bunch of long time banned cards *puts Jar Rober in Side Deck*. No. Raigeki doesn't combo well. Let's unban Raigeki! and our next story tonight mass hystaria all over the world as they unban Got of Greed' date=' Raigeki, and Harpies Feather Duster Yes mwahaha!!...wait *looks at guy beating him with Gladiator Beast Swarm* Quick unban Raigeki, before he summons a Laquari![/quote'] No. They pulled Monster Reborn in but restricted Call of the Haunted for a trade. then Premature went away. So I think were good with this card now. Go read the Six Conditions argument above. This is basically the only good recursion card in spell form that the current format has(out of the non banned ones). Go read the Six Conditions argument above. This card allows many deck types to compete using types that don't have inherent recursion. I am trying as hard as I can to think of a single deck that has ever been made competitive by the presence of a random piece of generic recursion that would be noncompetitive otherwise. The only thing I can think of that even comes close to that is the use of Disk Commander in Perfect Circle Monarchs' date=' which benefited greatly from Premature Burial, but PCM would have worked without Premature Burial, and Disk Commander is banworthy anyhow. Guess what card Marik used to bring back Monster Reborn? lolanimetrivia Monster Reborn is a card that generally cannot combo with anything to get a great result. It's just a simple one-for-one card that can generally turn a game around. Lightning Vortex can sometimes ruin your spectacular field advantage' date=' but it's not banworthy. In fact, a lot of cards can turn a game around. Furthermore, it's most likely not going to be banned for a while. Plus, we need at least one of the Reborn Trio to stay.[/quote'] Lightning Vortex requires the discarding of a card, thus making it a -1 to start. Monster Reborn has absolutely no cost and it can bring back an opponent's monster as well. While I do like having Monster Reborn at 1, I know that it needs to be banned. Costless revival does nothing good for the game, and Monster Reborn is costless revival. Lightning Vortex is only a -1 if you use it wrong. Your opponent controls a face-up REZD. You use Lightning Vortex. -1 Your opponent controls two face-up REDRUM and a Spirit Reaper. You use Lightning Vortex. +2 If the opponent doesn't stupidly overcommit to the field without using floaters, protection, or anything else of that sort, Lightning Vortex will not generate advantage, and unless you can alter your opponent's deck there isn't a single thing you can do about it. Also, the last example is a +1, not a +2. You fail mathematics forever. ROFL, forgive my simple mistake. :D I oversaw the 3 monsters as a +2, not realizing the post I made before it, as destroying a single monster with Lightning as a -1. Also, is it really possible to fail at mathematics forever? I mean, I'm sure I'm not the first person to make a mistake in mathematics. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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