[DISC] Dark Armed Dragon

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

 

Let us first assume, for argument's sake, that Emergency Teleport + Krebons is indeed an unacceptable combo.

 

The only crime that Emergency Teleport has committed is that it is able to Special Summon Krebons. The only crime that Krebons has committed is that it is able to be Special Summoned by Emergency Teleport. Neither card is banworthy on its own, nor can either be identified as the single problem; we simply have two balanced cards that cannot be allowed to co-exist.

 

In this case, we should ban whichever card would, were it to remain, contribute the least to the game. Krebons alone is a generic Tuner with an effect that helps it not die in battle - an effect that, though not a copy of any one other effect, is certainly similar to others such as Dark Resonator, Geomancer of the Ice Boundary, Iceshot User Reice, Nettles, Practitioner of the Ice Boundary, Shiba-Warrior Taro, and X-Saber Passiul. Emergency Teleport, on the other hand, would provide excellent Psychic support. Since neither can be identified as a guilty party, we must keep whichever will allow the most strategies in the absence of the other - and Emergency Teleport certainly fits the bill there.

 

Butterfly Dagger - Elma versus Gearfried goes the same way (although some would argue that Butterfly Dagger is the culprit): the Butterfly Dagger itself does nothing more than to make one bad Guardian monster technically usable (though still not useful), whereas Gearfried can be used with Smoke Grenade of the Thief and Blast with Chain, or to resist effects like an opposing Mark of the Rose or Falling Down. Gearfried provides the most to the game; therefore, Gearfried stays, and Elma goes.

 

If another specific Emergency Teleport target is considered a problem, then the combined contributions of that card and Krebons must be weighed against the contributions of Emergency Teleport.

 

This is hardly the least reasonable of systems: whichever helps the game the most stays, and whichever helps the game the least goes.

Chicken or the egg situation here. Neither card serves as a threat alone, but when together, they are rather cheap. This is why they should have combination banning, where cards cannot exist in the same deck with another card.

 

However, if I had to choose between one or the other, I would say E-Tele, as it is going to stifle what Level 2 psychics can do.

[Lemniscate]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

 

Let us first assume, for argument's sake, that Emergency Teleport + Krebons is indeed an unacceptable combo.

 

The only crime that Emergency Teleport has committed is that it is able to Special Summon Krebons. The only crime that Krebons has committed is that it is able to be Special Summoned by Emergency Teleport. Neither card is banworthy on its own, nor can either be identified as the single problem; we simply have two balanced cards that cannot be allowed to co-exist.

 

In this case, we should ban whichever card would, were it to remain, contribute the least to the game. Krebons alone is a generic Tuner with an effect that helps it not die in battle - an effect that, though not a copy of any one other effect, is certainly similar to others such as Dark Resonator, Geomancer of the Ice Boundary, Iceshot User Reice, Nettles, Practitioner of the Ice Boundary, Shiba-Warrior Taro, and X-Saber Passiul. Emergency Teleport, on the other hand, would provide excellent Psychic support. Since neither can be identified as a guilty party, we must keep whichever will allow the most strategies in the absence of the other - and Emergency Teleport certainly fits the bill there.

 

Butterfly Dagger - Elma versus Gearfried goes the same way (although some would argue that Butterfly Dagger is the culprit): the Butterfly Dagger itself does nothing more than to make one bad Guardian monster technically usable (though still not useful), whereas Gearfried can be used with Smoke Grenade of the Thief and Blast with Chain, or to resist effects like an opposing Mark of the Rose or Falling Down. Gearfried provides the most to the game; therefore, Gearfried stays, and Elma goes.

 

If another specific Emergency Teleport target is considered a problem, then the combined contributions of that card and Krebons must be weighed against the contributions of Emergency Teleport.

 

This is hardly the least reasonable of systems: whichever helps the game the most stays, and whichever helps the game the least goes.

Chicken or the egg situation here. Neither card serves as a threat alone, but when together, they are rather cheap. This is why they should have combination banning, where cards cannot exist in the same deck with another card.

 

However, if I had to choose between one or the other, I would say E-Tele, as it is going to stifle what Level 2 psychics can do.

 

how would combination banning be regulated? I agree with Crab Helmet's assessment, They are both bad when used together, so one must be banned, and Krebons gives the least to the game, so Krebons goes.

[Flame Dragon]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

 

Let us first assume, for argument's sake, that Emergency Teleport + Krebons is indeed an unacceptable combo.

 

The only crime that Emergency Teleport has committed is that it is able to Special Summon Krebons. The only crime that Krebons has committed is that it is able to be Special Summoned by Emergency Teleport. Neither card is banworthy on its own, nor can either be identified as the single problem; we simply have two balanced cards that cannot be allowed to co-exist.

 

In this case, we should ban whichever card would, were it to remain, contribute the least to the game. Krebons alone is a generic Tuner with an effect that helps it not die in battle - an effect that, though not a copy of any one other effect, is certainly similar to others such as Dark Resonator, Geomancer of the Ice Boundary, Iceshot User Reice, Nettles, Practitioner of the Ice Boundary, Shiba-Warrior Taro, and X-Saber Passiul. Emergency Teleport, on the other hand, would provide excellent Psychic support. Since neither can be identified as a guilty party, we must keep whichever will allow the most strategies in the absence of the other - and Emergency Teleport certainly fits the bill there.

 

Butterfly Dagger - Elma versus Gearfried goes the same way (although some would argue that Butterfly Dagger is the culprit): the Butterfly Dagger itself does nothing more than to make one bad Guardian monster technically usable (though still not useful), whereas Gearfried can be used with Smoke Grenade of the Thief and Blast with Chain, or to resist effects like an opposing Mark of the Rose or Falling Down. Gearfried provides the most to the game; therefore, Gearfried stays, and Elma goes.

 

If another specific Emergency Teleport target is considered a problem, then the combined contributions of that card and Krebons must be weighed against the contributions of Emergency Teleport.

 

This is hardly the least reasonable of systems: whichever helps the game the most stays, and whichever helps the game the least goes.

Chicken or the egg situation here. Neither card serves as a threat alone, but when together, they are rather cheap. This is why they should have combination banning, where cards cannot exist in the same deck with another card.

 

However, if I had to choose between one or the other, I would say E-Tele, as it is going to stifle what Level 2 psychics can do.

 

how would combination banning be regulated? I agree with Crab Helmet's assessment, They are both bad when used together, so one must be banned, and Krebons gives the least to the game, so Krebons goes.

They aren't both bad when used together.

[CrabHelmet]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

 

Let us first assume, for argument's sake, that Emergency Teleport + Krebons is indeed an unacceptable combo.

 

The only crime that Emergency Teleport has committed is that it is able to Special Summon Krebons. The only crime that Krebons has committed is that it is able to be Special Summoned by Emergency Teleport. Neither card is banworthy on its own, nor can either be identified as the single problem; we simply have two balanced cards that cannot be allowed to co-exist.

 

In this case, we should ban whichever card would, were it to remain, contribute the least to the game. Krebons alone is a generic Tuner with an effect that helps it not die in battle - an effect that, though not a copy of any one other effect, is certainly similar to others such as Dark Resonator, Geomancer of the Ice Boundary, Iceshot User Reice, Nettles, Practitioner of the Ice Boundary, Shiba-Warrior Taro, and X-Saber Passiul. Emergency Teleport, on the other hand, would provide excellent Psychic support. Since neither can be identified as a guilty party, we must keep whichever will allow the most strategies in the absence of the other - and Emergency Teleport certainly fits the bill there.

 

Butterfly Dagger - Elma versus Gearfried goes the same way (although some would argue that Butterfly Dagger is the culprit): the Butterfly Dagger itself does nothing more than to make one bad Guardian monster technically usable (though still not useful), whereas Gearfried can be used with Smoke Grenade of the Thief and Blast with Chain, or to resist effects like an opposing Mark of the Rose or Falling Down. Gearfried provides the most to the game; therefore, Gearfried stays, and Elma goes.

 

If another specific Emergency Teleport target is considered a problem, then the combined contributions of that card and Krebons must be weighed against the contributions of Emergency Teleport.

 

This is hardly the least reasonable of systems: whichever helps the game the most stays, and whichever helps the game the least goes.

Chicken or the egg situation here. Neither card serves as a threat alone, but when together, they are rather cheap. This is why they should have combination banning, where cards cannot exist in the same deck with another card.

 

However, if I had to choose between one or the other, I would say E-Tele, as it is going to stifle what Level 2 psychics can do.

 

It isn't going to "stifle" anything. The moment the cards that are being killed to save it are capable of helping the game more than it is, we can ban it and unban them. Hence, we can have our cake and eat it too: we keep Emergency Teleport as long as it is worth the sacrifice to keep it around, and then ban it as soon as this is no longer true. It's the best of all possible worlds, except unlike the Panglossian version it actually works.

 

Now, let us assume that there is a problem and that the problem is not Krebons + Emergency Teleport but rather lies somewhere in the Krebons/Teleport/Malicious/Level 8 Synchro Monster combo. Which element here should take the hit? Also, how about Summon Priest? Is his effect permissible with Level 4 Tuners?

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

Hmmm, I agree that at the moment, banning Krebons would be better, and that may very well happen. But I'm saying it will stifle psychics as Konami won't ban E-Tele when there are more than a few level 2 psychic tuners around, they will just stray from making them entirely, or powerful Level 2s in general. They wouldn't want to ban a popular Ultra for the sake of a few commons.

 

I still think E-Tele is the greater of the two in the Malicious combo. But Summon Priest has to wide a range of monsters to use at too low a cost and should be banned, maybe replaced with one that can't summon tuners.

[CrabHelmet]

Konami

 

A hole in your argument has been identified.

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

Konami

 

A hole in your argument has been identified.

 

Upper Deck hardly made an impact. The rarities still changed, cards were still taken out of decks, etc. They may have tried to resist some of the changes but mostly they were Konami's ho.

 

Do you think combination banning would help problems like E-Tele and Krebons?

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Konami

 

A hole in your argument has been identified.

 

Upper Deck hardly made an impact. The rarities still changed' date=' cards were still taken out of decks, etc. They may have tried to resist some of the changes but mostly they were Konami's ho.

 

Do you think combination banning would help problems like E-Tele and Krebons?

[/quote']

 

I don't think you understand what the hole in your argument actually was.

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

Then he was referring to that fact that the actions of Konami aren't the rational or correct action?

[CrabHelmet]

First of all, Konami would never hesitate to release cards simply because a broken combo might arise. They're the geniuses who gave us X-Saber Airbellum, Butterfly Dagger - Elma, and so on, remember?

 

Second of all, it can be assumed that those in charge of card creation are idiots and will be idiots regardless of our actions. Their idiocy should not impact our decision-making; as such, any argument involving Konami is essentially auto-nullified.

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

First of all' date=' Konami would never hesitate to release cards simply because a broken combo might arise. They're the geniuses who gave us X-Saber Airbellum, Butterfly Dagger - Elma, and so on, remember?

 

Second of all, it can be assumed that those in charge of card creation are idiots and will be idiots regardless of our actions. Their idiocy should not impact our decision-making; as such, any argument involving Konami is essentially auto-nullified.

[/quote']

 

Okay then, I guess I don't disagree with you, right now E-Tele should stay and Krebons should go, but later on the position may very well change. However, it still doesn't seem like E-Tele can be used in any effective way that isn't cheap. I still think combination banning should be created.

[Azure]

First of all' date=' Konami would never hesitate to release cards simply because a broken combo might arise. They're the geniuses who gave us X-Saber Airbellum, Butterfly Dagger - Elma, and so on, remember?

 

Second of all, it can be assumed that those in charge of card creation are idiots and will be idiots regardless of our actions. Their idiocy should not impact our decision-making; as such, any argument involving Konami is essentially auto-nullified.

[/quote']

 

Okay then, I guess I don't disagree with you, right now E-Tele should stay and Krebons should go, but later on the position may very well change. However, it still doesn't seem like E-Tele can be used in any effective way that isn't cheap. I still think combination banning should be created.

 

I agree, combination banning would get rid of all those unfair card effects.

[Blue Lightning]

Heres what I think, DAD should be banned. Saiyan has a valid point and almost convinced me to agree with him. But, looking at the meta, I would find it unnaceptable too have him at more than 0. Not now at least. Semi Limiting Malicious could also alleviate things.

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

First of all' date=' Konami would never hesitate to release cards simply because a broken combo might arise. They're the geniuses who gave us X-Saber Airbellum, Butterfly Dagger - Elma, and so on, remember?

 

Second of all, it can be assumed that those in charge of card creation are idiots and will be idiots regardless of our actions. Their idiocy should not impact our decision-making; as such, any argument involving Konami is essentially auto-nullified.

[/quote']

 

Okay then, I guess I don't disagree with you, right now E-Tele should stay and Krebons should go, but later on the position may very well change. However, it still doesn't seem like E-Tele can be used in any effective way that isn't cheap. I still think combination banning should be created.

 

I agree, combination banning would get rid of all those unfair card effects.

Hey, what happened to the whole DAD is the best thin-

 

Nevermind...

[Megaworm]

What cards make D.A.D such a meta-rapist?

 

Dark Grepher?

Emergency Teleport?

Krebons?

Dark Resonator?

 

Find them, then ban them. I doubt Dark Armed Dragon will be banned because of how high they are being sold. Because if they do get banned D.A.D Fangirls will begin jabroniing about it like always, and realising they blew around 1600 dollars on a pile'o'cardboard with a pretty picture.

 

I pray to God, Buddha, the Avatar, Chuck Norris, L. Ron Hubbard or whoever in the hell is in charge of the world that it gets banned. but then again, Every since i began running my Shadow-Imprisoning Beatstick deck D.A.D posed no problem at all. Just an annoying expensive 2800 beatstick that cant do anything while the mirror is all up in his face.

[CrabHelmet]

I still haven't figured out whose alt Megaworm is.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

What cards make D.A.D such a meta-rapist?

 

Dark Grepher?

Emergency Teleport?

Krebons?

Dark Resonator?

 

Find them' date=' then ban them. I doubt Dark Armed Dragon will be banned because of how high they are being sold. Because if they do get banned D.A.D Fangirls will begin jabroniing about it like always, and realising they blew around 1600 dollars on a pile'o'cardboard with a pretty picture.

 

I pray to God, Buddha, the Avatar, Chuck Norris, L. Ron Hubbard or whoever in the hell is in charge of the world that it gets banned. but then again, Every since i began running my Shadow-Imprisoning Beatstick deck D.A.D posed no problem at all. Just an annoying expensive 2800 beatstick that cant do anything while the mirror is all up in his face.

[/quote']

Yeah, a costless special summoned 2800 ATK beatstick isn't anything to get concerned about, it's not like they can't easily run over most of your monsters with it.

[Megaworm]

of course not. There are better beatsticks out there. If Dark Armed Dragon's effect is being negated, it's not better than Magician Of Black Chaos or Zera The Mant. Nobody runs equips in a tele-dad deck. EVER. It's easy to run over if you have a Skill Drain Beatdown deck. If not, you're doing it wrong. summon Red Dragon Archfiend before Stardust. Hit the barstard for 3000 against 2800. Or better yet throw out a Spiral Serpent, Cosmo Queen or Blue Eyes. nobody good runs them anymore but it does wonders with it's easy summonability.

 

If all else fails, run Fissure. or Smashing Ground. Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn says hi. Dimensional Fissure and Macro Cosmos says goodbye. Dark Armed Dragon CAN BE DESTROYED. It's just a pain in the ass to fight against first turn, especially against a cheater or deckstacker, or better yet, a lucky bastard.

 

by the way Crab, i'm YOUR ALT.

 

*dramatic music*

[GenzoTheHarpist]

If Magician of Black Chaos or Zera the Mant could be summoned for absolutely nothing without any rituals (not even using your normal summon) they would be significantly more playable because your opponent could just toss 2800 beatsticks out there like nothing. Sure, you can destroy them, but if your opponent can just keep it up they WILL have enough attack power to overwhelm you.

 

Furthermore, your RDA comment is nonsense. Teledad will be producing synchros much faster than a skill drain beatdown ever could.

[Megaworm]

My Red Dragon Archfiend comments are not nonsense. If your deck sucks, you cannot and will not defeat Tele-DAD. If you put effort and thought into your deck, then you will win. The opponent cannot keep up summoning Dark Armed Dragons if they are nothing more than beatsticks that can cause costless destruction if you have something better than them. Caius The Shadow Monarch, Snipe Hunter, Grave Squirmer, Dimensional Fissure, RDA and even Super Conductor Tyranno can hold their own against Tele-DAD if played correctly. If you are hasty and stupid about summoning and destroying then they can wait until you exhaust your hand and summon Tele-DAD to kill you. Hell, even a bug deck can kill Tele-DAD if the correct cards and plays are made.

 

My point being, the reason so many people lose to tele-DAD is not because if tele-DAD goes first, you are killed within the first couple turns, is they never pack the right cards to successfully kill Tele-DAD.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Activating SIM or Skill drain is not sufficient to beat a teledad deck. Skill Drain in fact is a fairly laughable attempt at doing so, since they're still free to make multiple synchros per turn.

 

The problem with thinking Skill Drain will win the duel for you is that that move doesn't have any future. What will you do to follow it up? RDA won't work, they can easily create synchros of their own to defeat it. Neither will any of your other synchros. So you got RDA, what does that mean? For every synchro you produce, their deck can make 2-3. In the context of Skill Drain beatdown this is particularly bad, as the high-attack monsters such as Fucilier can only tie against DAD and Goyo, and will lose to RDA or Colossal Fighter.

 

In fact, Skill Drain is such a low burden on teledad that many side deck into it. I guess that just shows how much they must be trembling in fear of having it activated against them.

 

SIM works a lot better since it can stop Malicious and Pleaguespreader, but if you ever actually have faced a teledad deck you'd know that it is by no means a free pass to victory. They can still summon DAD. They have MST, Storm, and in some builds Psychokinesis to take care of it, and can also just side Twisters or Dust Tornadoes for duel two, at which point you're screwed. Hell, if you didn't main deck them you're already down a duel, and by the third they'll be packed with Dusts and twisters or (maybe) Fuciliers, Zombyras, and skill drains of their own.

[CrabHelmet]

Can someone please explain how exactly Super Conductor Tyranno serves as a brilliant counter to Tele-DAD? It's a beatstick with no way of Special Summoning itself that comes with a lame burn effect.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

I think he just means it can beat DAD by battle.

[Megaworm]

From what i'm seeing, you are assuming that i'm actually bringing RDA out to integrate it's effect to use....and kill Defense Position monsters......something that doesn't even exist in a tele-dad format. No, it has 3000 ATK and is VERY easy to synchro summon. if at all, that is the best choice for a synchro while Skill Drain is ruining the moment of truth for almost every monster on the field. And you forget most tuners used need their effects to survive, because Emergency Teleport + Krebons does not equal Synchro. With Skill Drain out, Dark Resonator, Krebons and any other tuner monsters CAN be killed. No paying 800 Life points to protect themselves. A ready set of Dark Bribes, Solemns and primitive traps can so easily kill these combos as well. The opponent can summon DAD, i can Solemn it. The opponent can activate Heavy Storm to knock out skill drain, i can Dark Bribe it. Hell, if i really want to, i could just throw a Seven Tools into my deck and get the same thing done.

 

Of course, Skill Drain Beatdown isn't a godlike super-expensive unholy deck that works together like diabetes and obese kids. Which is why it's not on the top 10 List or crap that solidly consists of Tele-DAD. If Skill Drain completely and utterly destroyed teledad and every other deck, then Skill Drain beatdown would inhabit that list and we would be complaining about how Skill Drain ruined the meta. Skill Drain has weaknesses, i know that, but in comparisons to other decks to fight against Tele-DAD with, the classic Skill Drain beatdown seems to be the most inexpensive and cheap. Good Duelists are NOT going to throw 1300 dollars down to get a Tele-DAD deck and do the same crap as everyone else because they know they can win with a deck that costs half than that and runs ten times better.

 

note to crab: 3000+ ATK is higher than 2800 ATK.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

I never said a word about RDA's effect. I knew it was being negated. You bring out RDA, since it's skill drain you spend your summons doing so. Okay, the opponent D-Draws Malicious, double E-teles for some RDAs or other synchros, then drops DAD, suicides RDA into yours, attacks directly with the other synchro and DAD, and didn't even use any effects. Wow, they haven't even summoned yet, they'll also summon a Fucilier since they've probably already sided, and you are literally a hit away from death. Yeah, that Skill Drain sure worked.

 

You Bribe, they Bribe, you Solemn, they Solemn, this isn't going anywhere and they've got three-four monsters to your... zero. Real great job there. If you think they're going to leave a tuner on the field, you're wrong. The instant that thing comes out, it's going to be synchro'd. I'm starting to seriously doubt you've ever played against a teledad deck, since you show such ignorance of how they work.

 

Here, i'll say it again. SKILL DRAIN IS WORTHLESS. Hell, many teledad decks find that it even HELPS THEM WIN. It cannot stop them from creating synchros, or dropping free DADs. They'll likely have a storm, or MST, or Dust, or Twister, or Psychokinesis, before you get a solemn. Hell, they'll likely have their own solemns to stop yours. Or solemn your Skill Drain to begin with.

 

LOL at your comment about good duelists. There is no deck that runs 10x better and is 10x cheaper, if there was then it would be winning all the tournies. Face it, DAD comes up against SIM/Skill Drain ALL THE TIME, and 90% it beats them anyway.