Prove to me that Magical Scientist should be banned.

[CrabHelmet]

Since most people think he should be banned, I'll play Devil's Advocate and argue that he should be legal.

 

I'll start by removing his combo with Catapult Turtle from the picture. Catapult Turtle is and has always been useless outside of OTK decks, and indeed has been central to several other OTK decks - Chain Gate OTK, for example. Magical Scientist, on the other hand, has a variety of valid uses that do not involve OTK's. Hence, Scientist FTK does not prove that Magical Scientist should be banned.

 

Start the argument.

[The Crimson King]

There are many ways to combo with scientist. Banning scientist seems smarter than banning all the cards that combo with him, just like banning Disc was much smarter than banning stuff like Limit Reverse and Graceful Revival, as those cards aren't as useful on their own.

[CrabHelmet]

There are many ways to combo with scientist.

 

God forbid we allow a card to exist that combos with other cards.

 

Banning scientist seems smarter than banning all the cards that combo with him' date=' just like banning Disc was much smarter than banning stuff like Limit Reverse and Graceful Revival, as those cards aren't as useful on their own.

[/quote']

 

By this logic, Metamorphosis should be at 0.

 

Legality is not decided by majority rule. The goal of the banlist is not to minimize its own size at the expense of other factors.

[Tabris]

Lessee:

 

1. Combos with Shadowpriestess of Ohm, Dark Dive Bomber, and Mass Driver. But there's also somethin' to be said about the banworthiness of some, and the inconsistency of others.

 

2. A makeshift Cyber Dragon (summons X amount of beatsticks, which then clear opponent's field, or become Tribute fodder for... Monarchs, usually).

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Under this viewpoint, is Cyber-Stein banworthy?

 

Also, there are Mirage Knight OTKs performed by Magical Scientist independent of catapult turtle.

[CrabHelmet]

Lessee:

 

1. Combos with Shadowpriestess of Ohm' date=' Dark Dive Bomber, and Mass Driver. But there's also somethin' to be said about the banworthiness of some, and the inconsistency of others.

[/quote']

 

Of those three, only Dark Dive Bomber deals sufficient damage, and it has problems of its own.

 

2. A makeshift Cyber Dragon (summons X amount of beatsticks' date=' which then clear opponent's field, or become Tribute fodder for... Monarchs, usually).

[/quote']

 

Cyber Dragon does not require you to spend a Normal Summon on a weak monster like Magical Scientist, nor does it have a restriction prohibiting direct attacks.

 

Aside from the fact that it counts as a Tribute Summon rather than a Normal Summon (which only matters to Monarchs) and the fact that it sets up the Graveyard (which has limited themed use), Magical Scientist's use as a generator of Tribute Summon fodder is comparable to a one-sided Mausoleum of the Emperor - specifically, a one-sided Mausoleum that needs to be summoned itself, largely defeating the purpose of generating the Tribute fodder in the first place.

 

Under this viewpoint' date=' is Cyber-Stein banworthy?

[/quote']

 

Cyber-Stein's hefty cost ensures that it has no real use outside of OTK's. The large Fusion Monster targets have between them far more acceptable use than Cyber-Stein alone has.

 

Also' date=' there are Mirage Knight OTKs performed by Magical Scientist independent of catapult turtle.

[/quote']

 

If these OTK's are actually a problem, why not ban Mirage Knight - a card that has no real use outside of such a combo?

[GenzoTheHarpist]

I've got a good idea: How about you show some of the valid uses Magical Scientist has?

[Tabris]

^

 

It has none.

[CrabHelmet]

I've got a good idea: How about you show some of the valid uses Magical Scientist has?

 

Summon balanced Fusion Monster X. Use effect of balanced Fusion Monster X. Attack opponent's monster with balanced Fusion Monster X. Return balanced Fusion Monster X to the Extra Deck.

 

That, or have a Mausoleum that uses a Summon and has puny little legs, but is one-sided and preps the Graveyard.

[tonisanoob]

okay prove it should be legal! ;)

[Morgan LeFlay]

By this logic, Metamorphosis should be at 0.

 

It is, and probably should be.

[-Lightray Daedalus-]

That card is an upgraded version of Instant Fusion that can be used more than once per turn...so it makes Synchro very easy...that's obvious another OTK Swarming powerfull synchros Via E-tele, Plaguespreader, and so...and fills your graveyard with Dark monsters (if you are using it in Tele-DAD)...just in case you release them or something...

 

Althought I'm not sure yet of what kind of good fusion monster it can target in this days...I'll have to check out...

[Toffee.]

Under this viewpoint' date=' is Cyber-Stein banworthy?

[/quote']

 

Cyber-Stein's hefty cost ensures that it has no real use outside of OTK's. The large Fusion Monster targets have between them far more acceptable use than Cyber-Stein alone has.

 

LusterCrab, You were thare on Gamefaqs when they gave us that list on Wc07 that banned Ring of Destruction and Cyber Stien.

 

Remember? Ring was banned because it was too easy to activate, And can win the duel if used correctly.

 

And Cyber Stien was banned for the fact that it's cost is 5000 lifepoints, and just rediculous.

You pay 5000 for a Blue eyes Ultimiate Dragon, And its instantly destroyed by what-ever means the opponet has. Guess what? Your now down 5000 lifepoints.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

And Cyber Stien was banned for the fact that it's cost is 5000 lifepoints' date='

[/quote']

 

ilol'd.

[CrabHelmet]

okay prove it should be legal! ;)

 

Burden of proof rests on those who want it banned.

 

The standard argument is Scientist FTK' date=' which I have already addressed.

 

By this logic, Metamorphosis should be at 0.

 

It is,

 

Irrelevant.

 

and probably should be.

 

Prove it.

 

That card is an upgraded version of Instant Fusion that can be used more than once per turn...

 

Instant Fusion does not waste a Summon' date=' does not leave you with a 300 ATK beatstick for the opponent to trample, and counts as a Fusion Summon rather than a regular Special Summon.

 

so it makes Synchro very easy...

 

Synchro is already easy.

 

that's obvious another OTK Swarming powerfull synchros Via E-tele' date=' Plaguespreader, and so...

[/quote']

 

You have already spent either your Normal Summon or an extra Special Summon on Magical Scientist himself. How sure are you that this hypothetical OTK is a problem - and, if it is indeed a problem, how do you know that the problem is Scientist and not the Tuners or Synchros?

 

and fills your graveyard with Dark monsters (if you are using it in Tele-DAD)...

 

DAD' date=' along with another half-dozen cards included in Tele-DAD, should be banned.

 

Under this viewpoint' date=' is Cyber-Stein banworthy?

[/quote']

 

Cyber-Stein's hefty cost ensures that it has no real use outside of OTK's. The large Fusion Monster targets have between them far more acceptable use than Cyber-Stein alone has.

 

LusterCrab, You were thare on Gamefaqs when they gave us that list on Wc07 that banned Ring of Destruction and Cyber Stien.

 

No, I wasn't. I've never been to the WCT2007 board.

 

Remember? Ring was banned because it was too easy to activate' date=' And can win the duel if used correctly.

[/quote']

 

Ring has largely the same rationale as Pot of Greed. It gives humongous advantage to whoever is lucky enough to draw it, requires no setup or preparation, and only has one real use - an unacceptable one.

 

Magical Scientist is not especially useful without proper setup, is searchable (moreso now than ever, with One For One recently announced), and has a variety of uses.

 

And Cyber Stien was banned for the fact that it's cost is 5000 lifepoints' date=' and just rediculous.

You pay 5000 for a Blue eyes Ultimiate Dragon, And its instantly destroyed by what-ever means the opponet has. Guess what? Your now down 5000 lifepoints.

[/quote']

 

I can't even tell what you're saying here.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Virtually unlimited Tributes. Virtually unlimited Synchro material. Virtually unlimited Graveyard prep. Well, maybe the last one is a bit hyperbolic, but...

[CrabHelmet]

Of course, the other problem with complaining about this providing Synchro material is that Synchros and Fusions both share a 15-card Extra Deck, so using this for Synchro Summons - especially if you plan on using it multiple times - limits your options.

 

As for Tributes: Mausoleum. As for graveyard prep: Ohnoes, Pot of Avarice fuel. The horror.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Of course' date=' the other problem with complaining about this providing Synchro material is that Synchros and Fusions both share a 15-card Extra Deck, so using this for Synchro Summons - especially if you plan on using it multiple times - limits your options.

 

As for Tributes: Mausoleum. As for graveyard prep: Ohnoes, Pot of Avarice fuel. The horror.

[/quote']

 

You only ever really need 2-3 Synchros per game, so that's pretty moot.

 

Mausoleum doesn't provide Tribute fodder so much as it removes Tributing all together, and only for monsters being Normal Summoned. That means no Monarch effects, no Summoning Plasma, ect. Incidentally, all of these can be achieved by using Magical Scientist.

 

Yes, Pot of Avarice, but also Dragon's Mirror, both of the Sky Scourges, and some other cards that I can't remember right now. But I'll admit that setting up the Graveyard isn't one of the best uses of this card.

[Lemniscate]

Of course' date=' the other problem with complaining about this providing Synchro material is that Synchros and Fusions both share a 15-card Extra Deck, so using this for Synchro Summons - especially if you plan on using it multiple times - limits your options.

 

As for Tributes: Mausoleum. As for graveyard prep: Ohnoes, Pot of Avarice fuel. The horror.

[/quote']

 

You stated two different cards. But this card dores both of those jobs by itself.

[The Dark One]

So now you're saying that Catapult Turtle is useless outside of OTKs? I remember you disagreeing with me when I mentioned its issues, though I forget the details. Not that you're not allowed to change your mind, it just seems rather odd the way you say this so factually when you yourself disagreed not so long ago. :)

[Lemniscate]

So now you're saying that Catapult Turtle is useless outside of OTKs? I remember you disagreeing with me when I mentioned its issues' date=' though I forget the details. Not that you're not allowed to change your mind, it just seems rather odd the way you say this so factually when you yourself disagreed not so long ago. :)

[/quote']

 

Read first post, he is playing Devil's Advocate, testing us.

[CrabHelmet]

Of course' date=' the other problem with complaining about this providing Synchro material is that Synchros and Fusions both share a 15-card Extra Deck, so using this for Synchro Summons - especially if you plan on using it multiple times - limits your options.

 

As for Tributes: Mausoleum. As for graveyard prep: Ohnoes, Pot of Avarice fuel. The horror.

[/quote']

 

You only ever really need 2-3 Synchros per game, so that's pretty moot.

 

Per game, this is true. However, your Extra Deck does not change from game to game. Hence, over a series of games, your options have dwindled. Even in a single game, you could want a certain Synchro Monster that is not present in your Extra Deck because you removed a handful for Scientist.

 

Mausoleum doesn't provide Tribute fodder so much as it removes Tributing all together' date=' and only for monsters being Normal Summoned. That means no Monarch effects, no Summoning Plasma, ect. Incidentally, all of these can be achieved by using Magical Scientist.

[/quote']

 

Indeed, but this comes at the expense of a Summon. This Summon is especially significant with regard to the Monarchs, for reasons that I believe are obvious; you cannot use the Fusion Monsters as Tribute fodder for them unless you could have just used Magical Scientist (or any other monster in its place) as Tribute fodder anyhow.

 

I'll admit that Plasma is an unusual case, but I would here direct your attention to cards such as Scapegoat.

 

Yes' date=' Pot of Avarice, but also Dragon's Mirror, both of the Sky Scourges, and some other cards that I can't remember right now. But I'll admit that setting up the Graveyard isn't one of the best uses of this card.

[/quote']

 

I submit that setting up the Graveyard is one of the perfectly acceptable uses of this card. Why should giving a bit of support to poor Enrise be bad for the game?

 

Of course' date=' the other problem with complaining about this providing Synchro material is that Synchros and Fusions both share a 15-card Extra Deck, so using this for Synchro Summons - especially if you plan on using it multiple times - limits your options.

 

As for Tributes: Mausoleum. As for graveyard prep: Ohnoes, Pot of Avarice fuel. The horror.

[/quote']

 

You stated two different cards. But this card dores both of those jobs by itself.

 

First of all, you didn't read my post properly. Unless, of course, you think that Pot of Avarice helps you fill your own Graveyard, in which case you're wrong, so stop posting, rook.

 

Second of all, a little versatility is not a crime. Cards like Enemy Controller and Metamorphosis - not to mention the core concepts behind Gladiator Beasts and Synchro Monsters - have shown us this.

 

So now you're saying that Catapult Turtle is useless outside of OTKs? I remember you disagreeing with me when I mentioned its issues' date=' though I forget the details. Not that you're not allowed to change your mind, it just seems rather odd the way you say this so factually when you yourself disagreed not so long ago. :)

[/quote']

 

First of all, as I said, I am arguing from a different standpoint now.

 

Second of all, not everything I have ever said is necessarily entirely correct.

 

Third of all, out of all the Tribute-monster-inflict-burn-damage cards that lack a once-per-turn limit, Catapult Turtle is by far the least useful outside of OTK's. Part of this is the fact that it requires a Tribute. Another part of this is the fact that requires the Tributed monsters to have a lot of ATK; recall that the strongest non-OTK use for cards like Mass Driver and [Toon] Cannon Soldier is Token Burn.

[Lemniscate]

I don't believe that versatility IS a crime.

I believe that when a card steps beyong versatility and becomes overpowered and able to OTK with multiple different card combinations easily, that is when the card should be banned, as is the case with Magical Scientist.

[Uchiha]

This card can be a quick Synchro.

Bad.

[CrabHelmet]

I don't believe that versatility IS a crime.

I believe that when a card steps beyong versatility and becomes overpowered and able to OTK with multiple different card combinations easily' date=' that is when the card should be banned, as is the case with Magical Scientist.

[/quote']

 

Magical Scientist's only notable OTK has been with Catapult Turtle.

 

This card can be a quick Synchro.

Bad.

 

Until they make low-level Fusion Monsters that are also Tuners, this card can only generate Synchro Monsters if you can Summon both this and a Tuner. A Synchro Summon that relies on independently Summoning a non-Tuner and a Tuner is hardly irregular.