Card Trooper: Discussion

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

 

Where would you place this card on a 3-0 list? A Konami-esque list?

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't see this as a problem at 3 on a 3-0 OR a generic list. Machine Duplication's the problem, not this.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't see this as a problem at 3 on a 3-0 OR a generic list. Machine Duplication's the problem' date=' not this.

[/quote']

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Guest]

I don't see Machine Duplication or this as an inherent problem; only the combo between the two is troublesome. So put this at 2.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

I don't see Machine Duplication or this as an inherent problem; only the combo between the two is troublesome. So put this at 2.

 

I see where you're coming from, but Card Trooper isn't Dupe's only threat.

 

Dupe has 31 targets as of ANPR, including Cyber Valley, Tuningware, Dark Sea Rescue, Black Salvo, Satellite Cannon, Turbo Rocket and Morphtronic Celfon. Now granted, Tuners like Black Salvo, Nitro, and Turbo Rocket aren't as large a problem now, but there're bound to be more Synchros which can use multiple Tuners as material. We already have Gatmuz.

 

Then there're beatsticks like Scanner, Satellite, etc. which can potentially be just as much of a problem as Card Trooper.

 

3 Celfons are also a problem because they themselves can generate even more field advantage on top of that already gained by Dupe, at a point it becomes out of hand. 2 cards becoming 5 that quickly is a problem.

 

Everything taken into consideration, I think there's enough on Dupe to already warrant a ban, not to mention prevention of further abuse in the future, and with the rate at which Machine-Type monsters with 500 or less ATK are being released given Yusei's preference of supposed weak trashlike monsters, this should be something that we can expect.

[Toffee.]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't see this as a problem at 3 on a 3-0 OR a generic list. Machine Duplication's the problem' date=' not this.

[/quote']

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Because Machine Duplication is a one-sided Inferno Reckless.

Since all the awesome cards with 0-500ATK, have amazing effects.

 

Also, I think the reason this card was limited was because: This + Machine Duplication + Limiter Removal = 3 monsters with 3800ATK.

 

And it only took 3 cards.

[Kira the Savior]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't see this as a problem at 3 on a 3-0 OR a generic list. Machine Duplication's the problem' date=' not this.

[/quote']

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Because Machine Duplication is a one-sided Inferno Reckless.

Since all the awesome cards with 0-500ATK, have amazing effects.

 

Also, I think the reason this card was limited was because: This + Machine Duplication + Limiter Removal = 3 monsters with 3800ATK.

 

And it only took 3 cards.

 

NOOOOOOOO REALLY?!? we didnt know that!!!!!

 

On Topic: We should not ban dupe because of future cards Yusei might use because that would be as bad as when Pojo said "Lets ban all spell counter cards because there MIGHT be a card that could create a spell counter attack loop". And duping a celfon is stupid because you could only apply two of there effects, it lowers the decks count of morphs, and your chances of getting an optimal field become 0. Your chances of an ok field are low because your only really good combos left are 2 Radions or 1 Radion and a Boombox

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

On Topic: We should not ban dupe because of future cards Yusei might use because that would be as bad as when Pojo said "Lets ban all spell counter cards because there MIGHT be a card that could create a spell counter attack loop".

 

Except that it's not at all like that. Dupe is already deserving of a ban' date=' the Yusei trend is just an extra factor.

 

And duping a celfon is stupid because you could only apply two of there effects, it lowers the decks count of morphs, and your chances of getting an optimal field become 0. Your chances of an ok field are low because your only really good combos left are 2 Radions or 1 Radion and a Boombox

 

Not really, if you hit a Remoten or Scopen, which is entirely likely, there's room for combos there AND you can Sync out to get more space and use the 3rd Celfon. Not to mention the Synchro monster. Granted, it'd have to be low leveled. The highest you could get with only 1 Celfon sent would be Armory Arm for Remoten, or Android for Scopen, but still. It's viable, and you can tack on extra stuff too for the Synchro to get it higher up obviously. Considering Boomboxen, Radion, Celfon, or Scopen would all be fun to run into, it's good stuff.

 

Turning 2 cards into 5 isn't stupid in my eyes.

[Kira the Savior]

I still think its too unlikely to warrant the Celfon combo but I can see where your going. Theres only three scopens in my morph deck im not taking the chances of not hitting one so im going to not play it. But yeah I can see what you mean, it is possible

[GenzoTheHarpist]

This should stay at one. Machine Dupe contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game and has some definite value imo.

[Kira the Savior]

"Stay" at one? i though it was 2 right now? But i havent checked the list in a while......or ever.....

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

This should stay at one. Machine Dupe contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game and has some definite value imo.

 

Y'know what else contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game? Card of Safe Return. Doesn't make it any less broken.

[Sunshine Jesse]

This should stay at one. Machine Dupe contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game and has some definite value imo.

 

Y'know what else contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game? Card of Safe Return. Doesn't make it any less broken.

 

Y'know what else contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game?

Judgment Dragon. Seriously' date=' Ive seen so many ways of getting 4 LS monsters in the Grave that I never would've thought of >_>

*insert sarcasm tag here*

[Kira the Savior]

lol Polaris that was good. Yata-Lock was innovative. Still broken though

[Guest]

This should stay at one. Machine Dupe contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game and has some definite value imo.

 

Y'know what else contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game? Card of Safe Return. Doesn't make it any less broken.

 

This assumes that Mach-Dupe is in fact broken - a claim that has not been proven.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

This should stay at one. Machine Dupe contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game and has some definite value imo.

 

Y'know what else contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game? Card of Safe Return. Doesn't make it any less broken.

 

This assumes that Mach-Dupe is in fact broken - a claim that has not been proven.

 

There's no established formula or unit of measurement to determine a card's brokenness. Nobody can prove that Judgment Dragon is broken, only convince them.

 

"Judgment Dragon is broken" is also a claim that has not been proven. There's no real way of proving something bad for the game, which is why balance in Yugioh is so fun. It's all about convincing others that your set of arguments is common sense.

[Dark Magic Blaster]

You know what card really grinds my gears? Honest. That card is so cheap. Not only do you not see it coming, but there are few(if any) ways to stop it. How do you stop a card that isn't on the field. It's like kuriboh. You think you are about to strike the finishing blow then BOOOOOM!! They send it to the graveyard from the hand and tide turns. I know that making someone discard would eliminate the threat, but I am talking hypothetically as though you had no idea that that specific card was in their hand. Most of the time I don't even run cards that force discards unless the deck revolves areound that strat. If any card should be limited, then it's Honest.

[Kira the Savior]

You know what card really grinds my gears? Honest. That card is so cheap. Not only do you not see it coming' date=' but there are few(if any) ways to stop it. How do you stop a card that isn't on the field. It's like kuriboh. You think you are about to strike the finishing blow then BOOOOOM!! They send it to the graveyard from the hand and tide turns. I know that making someone discard would eliminate the threat, but I am talking hypothetically as though you had no idea that that specific card was in their hand. Most of the time I don't even run cards that force discards unless the deck revolves areound that strat. If any card should be limited, then it's Honest.

[/quote']

 

SOOOOOOO many things wrong with this post

1.Kuriboh fails

2.Skill Drain stops this.

3.It activates on the field except for the drawing efect wich isnt a big deal its not game breaking anyways

4.Honest limited? You must be a GENIUS!

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

You know what card really grinds my gears? Honest. That card is so cheap. Not only do you not see it coming' date=' but there are few(if any) ways to stop it. How do you stop a card that isn't on the field. It's like kuriboh. You think you are about to strike the finishing blow then BOOOOOM!! They send it to the graveyard from the hand and tide turns. I know that making someone discard would eliminate the threat, but I am talking hypothetically as though you had no idea that that specific card was in their hand. Most of the time I don't even run cards that force discards unless the deck revolves areound that strat. If any card should be limited, then it's Honest.

[/quote']

 

SOOOOOOO many things wrong with this post

1.Kuriboh fails

2.Skill Drain stops this.

3.It activates on the field except for the drawing efect wich isnt a big deal its not game breaking anyways

4.Honest limited? You must be a GENIUS!

 

Skill Drain doesn't stop Honest as it doesn't activate on the field, but Macro/D-Fissure/Banisher does. ;D How does Honest activate on the field lol? The discard effect's its main threat.

 

Don't diss Kuriboh. That's not cool. Kuriboh's the bomb.

 

But yeah, I'm not fully convinced here on Limiting Honest. What does that have to do with anything anyways? xD

[GenzoTheHarpist]

This should stay at one. Machine Dupe contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game and has some definite value imo.

 

Y'know what else contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game? Card of Safe Return. Doesn't make it any less broken.

 

This assumes that Mach-Dupe is in fact broken - a claim that has not been proven.

 

There's no established formula or unit of measurement to determine a card's brokenness. Nobody can prove that Judgment Dragon is broken' date=' only convince them.

 

"Judgment Dragon is broken" is also a claim that has not been proven. There's no real way of proving something bad for the game, which is why balance in Yugioh is so fun. It's all about convincing others that your set of arguments is common sense.

[/quote']

 

As opposed to you who have not done anything to convince anyone in this thread.

[burnpsy]

Err... I sorta beat you to posting this by a few hours.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

This should stay at one. Machine Dupe contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game and has some definite value imo.

 

Y'know what else contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game? Card of Safe Return. Doesn't make it any less broken.

 

This assumes that Mach-Dupe is in fact broken - a claim that has not been proven.

 

There's no established formula or unit of measurement to determine a card's brokenness. Nobody can prove that Judgment Dragon is broken' date=' only convince them.

 

"Judgment Dragon is broken" is also a claim that has not been proven. There's no real way of proving something bad for the game, which is why balance in Yugioh is so fun. It's all about convincing others that your set of arguments is common sense.

[/quote']

 

As opposed to you who have not done anything to convince anyone in this thread.

 

I can't control what convinces you and what doesn't. You control what you're convinced by, I've given my arguments. If you'd like to give any reasoning as to WHY you aren't convinced, we could take this further.

[Guest]

This should stay at one. Machine Dupe contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game and has some definite value imo.

 

Y'know what else contributes a lot of innovative strategies to the game? Card of Safe Return. Doesn't make it any less broken.

 

This assumes that Mach-Dupe is in fact broken - a claim that has not been proven.

 

There's no established formula or unit of measurement to determine a card's brokenness. Nobody can prove that Judgment Dragon is broken' date=' only convince them.

 

"Judgment Dragon is broken" is also a claim that has not been proven. There's no real way of proving something bad for the game, which is why balance in Yugioh is so fun. It's all about convincing others that your set of arguments is common sense.

[/quote']

 

Proof is not necessarily absolute and mathematical (though you will note that even the most rigorous mathematical proof makes many assumptions, such as the commutativity of addition and multiplication, that cannot themselves be proven). I recommend that you turn to your legal system for the type of "proof" that we are looking for here.

 

I have seen and constructed a variety of proofs that Judgment Dragoon is harmful to the game. I have not, however, ever seen a convincing proof that Machine Duplication is bad for the game, and the argument that you yourself have presented is rather lacking. I do see the Scanner and Celfon arguments as having potential (though moreso Celfon), but you neglected to pursue those points, instead going for quantity over quality and providing a laundry list of cards with which Machine Duplication interacts acceptably, and making baseless accusations - how is using Machine Duplication to Summon multiple Tuners for use in a single Synchro Summon damaging to the game? How will replicating Satellite Cannon be a problem?

[Dimentio14253]

That machine duplication, card trooper and limiter removal...tough strategy