Naruto

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

There isn't much information on the first war, but I would say no. I don't think the Uchiha were involved in that.

[Kakashi Hatake]

There isn't much information on the first war, but I would say no. I don't think the Uchiha were involved in that.

Really? I thought that one was between Hashirama's and Madara's clans.

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

No, that was before the founding of Konoha. Those wars stopped when they signed the agreement to form Konoha.

[Fusion X. Denver]

Could have sworn Madara said he died after the Hashirama fight, maybe I remembered wrong?

If so, I'll go with that theory too. Sounds a lot less complicated than my whole clan theory. One question though is how DID Madara die then?

Maybe Orochimaru found out and interfered, which is why Obito's been cursing him so much.

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

He did say he died after the Hashirama fight. He never said when that was. The only other thing I can think of that he said about his death is that he activated the Rinnegan not long before it.

[Legend Zero]

Every time I try to come up with an explanation for Orochimaru supposedly having all this knowledge, I get so confused. >.<

 

Although, they could just make it like Itachi. "lol, I found him."

[Fusion X. Denver]

WAIT.

What if Orochimaru was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan? Or at least was responsible for it happening?

He experimented with Senju cells and Kabuto said he was able to harness the power of the Rikudo Sage unlike anyone else. He could do what his master could not.

And Madara stole it, giving it to Nagato, then dying some time afterward.

[Phantom Roxas]

I'm just speculating, but I think Madara died of fatigue after his battle with Hashirama, although he probably discovered how to achieve the Rinnegan between the battle and his death.

[✪RION]

When I first thought of what if Madara was the first Tobi, everything was almost perfect. The only thing that's missing is why Obito. What's so special about him... until I remembered the chapter where Tobi reveal his face to Kisame and Kisame acknowledge him as the Madara. Did I miss something?

 

@Kakashi Hatake, Madara never met anyone that can match him except for Hashirama and Minato is one BAMF so Minato might be able to go toe to toe with Minato

 

And why must Orichimaru be tie into all of this? Can't he just be the guy who stumble upon the information either by accident or by research?

[Kakashi Hatake]

@Kakashi Hatake, Madara never met anyone that can match him except for Hashirama and Minato is one BAMF so Minato might be able to go toe to toe with Minato

Minato couldn't hold a flame to Hashirama or Madara. :I I highly doubt that he could.

[Phantom Roxas]

Kisame recognized Tobi as the Mizukage, and as a result knew that he was Madara, although he only thought that because Tobi said he was.

[Fusion X. Denver]

I'll admit I forgot that, but when does Kisame go rogue in the timeline exactly?

[Mr.WHAM]

WAIT.

What if Orochimaru was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan? Or at least was responsible for it happening?

He experimented with Senju cells and Kabuto said he was able to harness the power of the Rikudo Sage unlike anyone else. He could do what his master could not.

And Madara stole it, giving it to Nagato, then dying some time afterward.

 

Nagato awoke the Rinnengan in the midst of training with Jiraiya so no one had to give it to him. It was his all along.

 

Kisame recognized Tobi as the Mizukage, and as a result knew that he was Madara, although he only thought that because Tobi said he was.

That was not Tobi; check the hair. It doesn't match him at all; it probably was Madara, which raises the question how. And Tobi "joined" Akatsuki after Sasori died. Or this is when he first started showing up and he was a completely different individual.

 

Minato couldn't hold a flame to Hashirama or Madara. :I I highly doubt that he could.

 

That is by far completely untrue. The Fourth destroyed our current Obito ina matter of seconds, who is on par with current Naruto, Gai and Kakashi. In the upcoming chapters, we will see Naruto's strength as it pertains to Uchiha Madara. He (the fourth) can handle the Kyuubi, something that only Madara & Obito were able to do.

 

Which brings me to this point:

When the 4th fought Obito, he figured out that it was "Madara" in a matter of minutes. The problem as we all know is that it was not. Madara as he's so far demonstrated, does NOT have any Space-Time Ninjustu, which Obito, clearly does. Obito also was in control of the Kyuubi at the time of the attack, something that only the real Madara was able to do. In addition, I will remind everyone here that Sasuke could see and restrain the Kyuubi inside Naruto as he did earlier in the series. This leads me to believe two things:

1. There has been a great amount of propaganda and misinformation about the identity and powers of Uchiha Madara. This also makes me believe that "Obito" is lying about who he is and some sort of ninjustsu that allows him to completely take over another person's identity, including chakra and ninjstu. In addition, since,Madara knew who Tobi, the masked man, was as confirmed as of the last page of the latest chapter, this leads me to think that Madara has planned this entire thing out, including the death of the 4th Hokage, to some degree. It would explain why they seem to have this giant advantage lurking in the shadows.

2. That ANY Uchiha can control the Kyuubi, if they are powerful enough. This could be potentially disastrous for Naruto as he is the Fox's current Jinchurikki. This may explain why they might have been viewed as such a threat to have the entire clan eliminated by Itachi and the previous wars between the Uchiha and the Senju.

[Kakashi Hatake]

Nagato awoke the Rinnengan in the midst of training with Jiraiya so no one had to give it to him. It was his all along.

 

 

That was not Tobi; check the hair. It doesn't match him at all; it probably was Madara, which raises the question how. And Tobi "joined" Akatsuki after Sasori died. Or this is when he first started showing up and he was a completely different individual.

 

 

 

That is by far completely untrue. The Fourth destroyed our current Obito ina matter of seconds, who is on par with current Naruto, Gai and Kakashi. In the upcoming chapters, we will see Naruto's strength as it pertains to Uchiha Madara. He (the fourth) can handle the Kyuubi, something that only Madara & Obito were able to do.

 

Which brings me to this point:

When the 4th fought Obito, he figured out that it was "Madara" in a matter of minutes. The problem as we all know is that it was not. Madara as he's so far demonstrated, does NOT have any Space-Time Ninjustu, which Obito, clearly does. Obito also was in control of the Kyuubi at the time of the attack, something that only the real Madara was able to do. In addition, I will remind everyone here that Sasuke could see and restrain the Kyuubi inside Naruto as he did earlier in the series. This leads me to believe two things:

1. There has been a great amount of propaganda and misinformation about the identity and powers of Uchiha Madara. This also makes me believe that "Obito" is lying about who he is and some sort of ninjustsu that allows him to completely take over another person's identity, including chakra and ninjstu. In addition, since,Madara knew who Tobi, the masked man, was as confirmed as of the last page of the latest chapter, this leads me to think that Madara has planned this entire thing out, including the death of the 4th Hokage, to some degree. It would explain why they seem to have this giant advantage lurking in the shadows.

2. That ANY Uchiha can control the Kyuubi, if they are powerful enough. This could be potentially disastrous for Naruto as he is the Fox's current Jinchurikki. This may explain why they might have been viewed as such a threat to have the entire clan eliminated by Itachi and the previous wars between the Uchiha and the Senju.

Everything here is either something we already know or it seems to be wrong. Like the Minato being able to stand against Madara and Hashirama. Do you think that Minato was stronger than the current five Kages working together? because Madara sure as hell is. and if Hashirama was stronger still than Madara, then he'd stand little chance.

[Fusion X. Denver]

Nagato awoke the Rinnengan in the midst of training with Jiraiya so no one had to give it to him. It was his all along.

 

No no

Tobi said he gave it to him. It's true that could be a lie, however, the real Madara knew Nagato's name, which implies Tobi did interact with him given that he and Tobi conspired together.

That was not Tobi; check the hair. It doesn't match him at all; it probably was Madara, which raises the question how. And Tobi "joined" Akatsuki after Sasori died. Or this is when he first started showing up and he was a completely different individual.

 

 

 

That is by far completely untrue. The Fourth destroyed our current Obito ina matter of seconds, who is on par with current Naruto, Gai and Kakashi. In the upcoming chapters, we will see Naruto's strength as it pertains to Uchiha Madara. He (the fourth) can handle the Kyuubi, something that only Madara & Obito were able to do.

No no

The current Obito has Rinnegan, more experience, and 6 Jinchurikis as pawns.

And don't forget Naruto was also able to tame Kurama (sure Kushina helped a bit, but she also did for Minato back then).

2. That ANY Uchiha can control the Kyuubi, if they are powerful enough. This could be potentially disastrous for Naruto as he is the Fox's current Jinchurikki. This may explain why they might have been viewed as such a threat to have the entire clan eliminated by Itachi and the previous wars between the Uchiha and the Senju.

That's pretty much correct, yeah.

[Mr.WHAM]

Everything here is either something we already know or it seems to be wrong. Like the Minato being able to stand against Madara and Hashirama. Do you think that Minato was stronger than the current five Kages working together? because Madara sure as hell is. and if Hashirama was stronger still than Madara, then he'd stand little chance.

Tsunade and Tsuchikage have both killed this Madara; Naruto would've killed him without the Rinnengan. He is not stronger than both of them. He also is stronger now than he was when he fought Hashirama, because he has immortality, unlimited chakra, and Hashirama's cells. Without them he would've been defeated by all five Kages. Back when he was alive he was not as strong as he was now, the Fourth could have handled him. So I do believe that the Fourth could have killed him. I mean if Tsunade can, the Fourth undoubtedly can.

@Fusion

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v48/c444/17.html

I see no Tobi in sight.

It is true that they interacted, which was simply implied because Tobi/Madara was apart of Akatsuki. Tobi/Madara had been manipulating Pein all along.He said so.

Tobi is a giant liar. Trust nothing he says.

 

I'd say that currently, Naruto is at the 4th's level. While it is true that Naruto has significantly more raw power than the 4th, Minato has significantly more skill than Naruto. He has enough skill to handle the Kyuubi, on mostly his own, allow me to interject that the Kyuubi IS stronger than all the other Tailed Beasts combined, a feat that Naruto has recently accomplished in his own variation as of now.

 

And I'd like to point out that Madara would be dead without the Rinnegan (and immoratlity, which makes him utterly broken) already as Naruto got him head on with a Rasenshuriken. The upcoming fight will not be a fun one as we've experience two types of brokenness with the Rinnengan: the six paths version and the singular version. Right now, Naruto, Gai and Kakashi must take on both these paths. This fight should prove to be challenging to say the least. While it is true than Naruto is now stronger than Pein, which was proven when he was resurrected, Pein's solitary justu used was the Rinnengan. These other two have shown that they use other jutsu which will make it that much more challenging than beating the Rinnengan alone. Oh and the Sharingan doesn't help.

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

Tsunade and Tsuchikage have both killed this Madara; Naruto would've killed him without the Rinnengan. He is not stronger than both of them. He also is stronger now than he was when he fought Hashirama, because he has immortality, unlimited chakra, and Hashirama's cells. Without them he would've been defeated by all five Kages. Back when he was alive he was not as strong as he was now, the Fourth could have handled him. So I do believe that the Fourth could have killed him. I mean if Tsunade can, the Fourth undoubtedly can.

 

They have? I was under the impression that none of the kage could beat him. With or without the Edo Tensei thing. All he did was play with them.

 

 

@Fusion

http://www.mangahere...17.html<br />I see no Tobi in sight.

It is true that they interacted, which was simply implied because Tobi/Madara was apart of Akatsuki. Tobi/Madara had been manipulating Pein all along.He said so.

Tobi is a giant liar. Trust nothing he says.

 

He wasn't with any of the other Akatsuki either, yet we know he manipulated them. As far as I remember, Tobi hasn't really lied all that much. The biggest two lies were him acting as someone else both times (Once as the goofy kid, once as Madara). I still am working under the theory that both Madara and Obito have worked under the name "Tobi" before. Madara actually gave Nagato the Rinnegan (which would explain why he knows Nagato).

 

I'd say that currently, Naruto is at the 4th's level. While it is true that Naruto has significantly more raw power than the 4th, Minato has significantly more skill than Naruto. He has enough skill to handle the Kyuubi, on mostly his own, allow me to interject that the Kyuubi IS stronger than all the other Tailed Beasts combined, a feat that Naruto has recently accomplished in his own variation as of now.

 

And I'd like to point out that Madara would be dead without the Rinnegan (and immoratlity, which makes him utterly broken) already as Naruto got him head on with a Rasenshuriken. The upcoming fight will not be a fun one as we've experience two types of brokenness with the Rinnengan: the six paths version and the singular version. Right now, Naruto, Gai and Kakashi must take on both these paths. This fight should prove to be challenging to say the least. While it is true than Naruto is now stronger than Pein, which was proven when he was resurrected, Pein's solitary justu used was the Rinnengan. These other two have shown that they use other jutsu which will make it that much more challenging than beating the Rinnengan alone. Oh and the Sharingan doesn't help.

 

Madara is dead. And, at this point, the Rinnegan isn't really doing much. He fought most of the battle with Sharingan techniques and Wood Style. Also, saying that someone would be dead without a certain move is pointless, because most of them would be dead without a certain move. Obito would be dead without his eye techniques, Naruto would be dead if Kurama still hated him, etc. And, yes, he is a good bit stronger than he was during the Invasion of Pain arc, it took 3 powerful guys to beat Nagato: Naruto, Itachi, and Killer B.

[Fusion X. Denver]

Tobi could have given it to him when he was a baby for all we know. Notice we never see Nagato's eyes until he goes berserk, so how could we know he "awoke" them at that moment?

[·Toot]

Nagato awoke the Rinnengan in the midst of training with Jiraiya so no one had to give it to him. It was his all along.

 

That's not how he got it. Tobi said he gave it to him, but I still kinda believe that wqs a load of crap. He had it even when his parents were still alive. Seeing how they didn't find that strange, im led to believe he already grew into the Rinnegan or he was born with it.

 

That was not Tobi; check the hair. It doesn't match him at all; it probably was Madara, which raises the question how. And Tobi "joined" Akatsuki after Sasori died. Or this is when he first started showing up and he was a completely different individual.

 

Well that could be true, but what if (i believe some has mentioned this already) there is more than one Tobi? They all could be made up from Zetsu. It would kind of explain how he obtained some of Hashirama's cells.

[Kakashi Hatake]

Tsunade and Tsuchikage have both killed this Madara; Naruto would've killed him without the Rinnengan. He is not stronger than both of them. He also is stronger now than he was when he fought Hashirama, because he has immortality, unlimited chakra, and Hashirama's cells. Without them he would've been defeated by all five Kages.

 

Please tel me, when did Tsunade and the Tsuchikage ever kill Madara. because from what I've seen, they couldn't touch him. And what do you mean, "Naruto would've killed him"? Naruto hasn't even faught him yet. Okay, so you're saying that he is immortal, has Senju cells, and has unlimited chakra and you still think that he isn't stronger than Naruto? I'd really like to see where you're pulling all of these "facts" because that sounds like a really crazy place.

 

[Fusion X. Denver]

Well, Tsunade did blow half his body away with a punch at one point. If Madara weren't undead, the Kages would have won at this point is what Wham is saying, and I actually do agree with that.

However, Edo ninjas don't seem to bother using Substitution, Itachi wouldn't be as careless as he was against Kabuto if that weren't the case.

[Kakashi Hatake]

Well, Tsunade did blow half his body away with a punch at one point. If Madara weren't undead, the Kages would have won at this point is what Wham is saying, and I actually do agree with that.

However, Edo ninjas don't seem to bother using Substitution, Itachi wouldn't be as careless as he was against Kabuto if that weren't the case.

You're saying that he would've lost if he wasn't immortal, but he is. :I

[Lt. Colonel Remo]

Correct if I'm wrong, but when Itachi found Tobi ("Madara") and asked him to help on the condition that he only get revenge on the Uchiha, did Tobi not have Madara's hair? An why would Obito want to massacre the rest of his clan?

 

 

 

You're saying that he would've lost if he wasn't immortal, but he is. :I

Which implies that he isn't as strong as we were perceiving him to be

 

Which means that he'l have to rely on that immortality moreso than his actual move set

 

Which means that he has to rely on something he himself is only experiencing for the first time (and as a result might allow Naruto and the gang to find a loop hole or something)

[Kakashi Hatake]

Which implies that he isn't as strong as we were perceiving him to be

 

Which means that he'l have to rely on that immortality moreso than his actual move set

 

Which means that he has to rely on something he himself is only experiencing for the first time (and as a result might allow Naruto and the gang to find a loop hole or something)

I wasn't implying anything. :I

[Fusion X. Denver]

You're saying that he would've lost if he wasn't immortal, but he is. :I

 

I know that :I

 

 

An why would Obito want to massacre the rest of his clan?

 

That is the question, isn't it?