Celestia and Wulf should both be banned.

[shadowferret]

Wulf... that helps lean me in the other direction a bit, but I just can't make up my mind about him. It's... a beatstick, and personally I don't have issues with things that are simply beatsticks. Though I agree that it promotes pure Luck too much, and that's bad for this game called Yugiou.

 

As for Celestia... I already leaned towards Limit or Semi-Limit, but some of those points did push it a little. When people say it's an LS-Monarch, the same thing runs through my mind: "No Monarchs destroy *any* two cards on the opponent's field." In a Deck that's already Nearly-Free-Swarming and such, that's bad. Celestia... I really wouldn't mind it hitting the Ban List. Those two cards make it ridiculous, because unless one of the cards was Threatening Roar, Waboku, Winged Kuriboh, etc., it just makes the game prior to that turn useless, seeing as how Lightsworn can swarm the field in a single turn and swing for Game.

 

As for the Luck Versus Skill thing, I honestly think both have a place in the game. Sure, LS overdoes it with the random mill, but Luck is still a factor. As I've seen people like Darkest Hour say, Luck is a part of the game -- You shuffle your Deck. Skill should take precedent over Luck, but Luck shouldn't be completely eliminated from the Game. I think Luck balances against the pure one-sided-ness some cards, like DAD and JD make. Of course, ban all the "broken" cards, and see what I say afterwards... But LS just pushes it. 'Nuff said.

 

Lightsworn annoy me. They aren't invincible, and if you know the right tricks can be taken down with enough work, but they still annoy me due to the factor that the milling makes the game completely over in one turn.

If a Lumina's been there for a turn, then discard for Lumina/Lyla, (do it again if it was Lumina), switch to blow backfield, Tribute Lyla for Celestia, blow the Monsters, (Worst case scenario, mill a Wulf), attack for Game/near Game. I know speed and swarming are an integral part of the game, but it just gets on my nerves that the milling is supposed to be the Lightsworn's drawback, and it only helps them kill the opponent faster.

 

Reading Crab's post enlightened me a bit... Celestia, I'd enjoy seeing it banned. Wulf, maybe, just because it has a stupid effect when you really think about it.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

I think Luck balances against the pure one-sided-ness some cards' date=' like DAD and JD make. [/quote']

 

Cards like DAD and JD are totally luck-based. You have a chance to draw JD, if you do, you often win much more easily. It's not a coincidence, it's luck.

 

Limited and Semi-Limited lists also promote luck.

 

The elimination of A VAST AMOUNT of the game's luck-dependability is a good thing for the game. The game'll still have an inherent luck value anyway as long as there're effects and potential for certain cards to be better in certain situations, which will never cease to be the case. Players needing to think more as opposed to just hope to draw into a powerhouse more is a major goal here.

[shadowferret]

I see your point... and I have to say, after thinking it over, I have to agree with you. There's enough Luck with needing to draw certain cards.

 

And at the same time, I agree with eliminating the pure Luck factor out of some cards in the game, as being good for the Game. I still think Luck is important, but a lot of cards in this game take it to such an extreme as to where it promotes being a Lucky person. It DOES take away from some of the skill required.

 

Well... reading a lot of this has actually given me somewhat of a new perspective.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

I was iffy on Celestia, but now I support a ban. Even if JD, Celestia, and Wulf were all banned LS wouldn't be dead, the actual LS deck would be much less competative, but Twilight would still make very good use of them.

[Great Unclean One: VK]

Of course now people are taking luck out with stacking. At the tourny I know, there arnt that much people and banning is out of the question so people stack their decks. I hate it there because people there cheat alot but no one wants to do anything because they also cheat.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

Of course now people are taking luck out with stacking. At the tourny I know' date=' there arnt that much people and banning is out of the question so people stack their decks. I hate it there because people there cheat alot but no one wants to do anything because they also cheat.

[/quote']

 

You know, cutting the deck tends to disrupt stacking greatly, infact, when they hand it to you to cut, shuffle it. Yes, it is allowed, and then both players cut it, owner of the deck cutting first.

[Dad]

Celestia and Wulf should both be banned.

 

Why?

 

If Crab says something' date=' it's truth until proven otherwise. Everyone on YCM knows that.

[/quote']

 

lolno

 

OT: The Wulf is homo-lucksack, so it should be scratched. The Celestia could go too, but I doubt it would hinder LS much regardless.

[Cypress]

IMO

 

Wolf 1

- thus giving a higher chance of being drawn, and ruining the purpose of the card

 

Celestia 1

- only for the reason that in a archtype specific deck suck at the lucksack stated above, there will then be a higher chance of it being milled, thus, to some exstent, fixing the problem

 

JD 1

- saying that JD is the boss as DAD is the boss is true. but DAD is not banned, is he now, and i feel that it will stay that way. as read above with my limiting of Celestia, there is now a caps of 2 boss monsters in this archtype specific deck, giving people less likly of a chance to run Lightsworn, as being less powerful.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

JD 1

- saying that JD is the boss as DAD is the boss is true. but DAD is not banned' date=' is he now, and i feel that it will stay that way.[/quote']

 

Seeing as JD is worse than DAD, your logic is nullified :? Besides, the fact that DAD isn't banned has no effect on JD not being banned, atleast it shouldn't.

[Cypress]

JD 1

- saying that JD is the boss as DAD is the boss is true. but DAD is not banned' date=' is he now, and i feel that it will stay that way.[/quote']

 

Seeing as JD is worse than DAD, your logic is nullified :? Besides, the fact that DAD isn't banned has no effect on JD not being banned, atleast it shouldn't.

 

then if wat ur saying is true, JD should be banned cuz its worse than DAD?

[Mister Sir]

I like the logic behind banning Celestia and Wulf.

 

And JD.

[Mysty]

I like the logic behind banning Celestia and Wulf.

 

And JD.

this.

 

If these get banned, Lightsworn will have to try running Gragonith again, right? Or would regular Lightsworn be thrown away for its variants that have better boss monsters?

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

IMO

 

Wolf 1

- thus giving a higher chance of being drawn' date=' and ruining the purpose of the card

 

Celestia 1

- only for the reason that in a archtype specific deck suck at the lucksack stated above, there will then be a higher chance of it being milled, thus, to some exstent, fixing the problem

 

JD 1

- saying that JD is the boss as DAD is the boss is true. but DAD is not banned, is he now, and i feel that it will stay that way. as read above with my limiting of Celestia, there is now a caps of 2 boss monsters in this archtype specific deck, giving people less likly of a chance to run Lightsworn, as being less powerful.

[/quote']

 

This entire post makes no sense at all. It's like you're taking random buzzwords you've pieced together from throughout the topic and are ramming them together. >_>

 

Limiting Wulf gives the single copy a higher chance of being drawn as opposed to being milled, but limiting Celestia gives the single copy a higher chance of being milled as opposed to being drawn? RIGHT.

 

Judgment Dragon's not banworthy because Konami hasn't chosen to ban Dark Armed Dragon yet? Really?

 

And Judgment Dragoon goes without saying.

lolycm

 

"I LIKE JD DONT BAN IT" wasn't funny the first time.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

JD 1

- saying that JD is the boss as DAD is the boss is true. but DAD is not banned' date=' is he now, and i feel that it will stay that way.[/quote']

 

Seeing as JD is worse than DAD, your logic is nullified :? Besides, the fact that DAD isn't banned has no effect on JD not being banned, atleast it shouldn't.

 

then if wat ur saying is true, JD should be banned cuz its worse than DAD?

 

Both should be banned, but if DAD isn't banned there is no reason JD shouldn't.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Celestia and Wulf should both be banned.

 

Why?

 

If Crab says something' date=' it's truth until proven otherwise. Everyone on YCM knows that.[/quote']

 

Were you not around the time Crab decided to dick around and promote ridiculous bans and unlimits just to see how many idiots would follow him around still proclaim him the messiah?

[Psycho Shocker Android]

Wulf shouldn't be banned there are way to play him without relying on luck Foolish Celestia is a really good move and when you draw him you can stack it with plague so you mill it anyway plus you always have Lumina.

 

No matter where you put wulf on the list you have the same proportion of mill vs draw. (it's basic math)

 

JD is rediculous you have tons of way to search it (gold sarc), huge draw/mill power and even if he hits the grave you have a plethora of ways to retreive it (reincarnation, beckoning, herald of creation, AFotP+upstart if youre crazy). He's broken he has the 2nd best monster effect after CED.

 

Celestia I don't know. She's basically a Mobius for lightsworn.

[Wizarus]

Wulf shouldn't be banned there are way to play him without relying on luck Foolish Celestia is a really good move and when you draw him you can stack it with plague so you mill it anyway plus you always have Lumina.

 

That is true. Then again' date=' you're playing Russian Roullette with Foolish and Plague, the same way you're playing the entire Lightsworn deck. You still depend on luck whether you're going to draw Foolish out of 5 cards you're milling. (Unless of course you draw it during your opening hand.)

 

Celestia I don't know. She's basically a Mobius for lightsworn.

 

I take it you missed that huge post in the last page. Celestia is not a Mobius for Lightsworn. She is a non-specific -2, while Mobius is a specific -2. It should probably be limited/semi in my opinion, but Wulf and JD should be banned.

[Great Unclean One: VK]

Wulf shouldn't be limited or anything. You need luck, and last time I checked, the meta don't like luck. They want everything under their control so they could win. Wulf is just a loose cannon with huge paybacks if used. Celestia needs to be semi.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Celestia I don't know. She's basically a Mobius for lightsworn.

 

If mobius wasn't limited to spells and traps, people would be running him at threes all over the place.

[CrabHelmet]

Responses to things people have said:

 

Luck has its place in the game too: This lies somewhere between the Slippery Slope fallacy and the Perfect Solution fallacy. There is a difference between wanting to reduce the impact of Luck and wanting to expunge it completely; also, just because Luck cannot be eliminated completely does to mean that there is not value in reducing its impact. (shadowferret in particular seems to have a Perfect Problem fallacy as well, arguing that Lightlords "aren't invincible".) Also, if the only way to beat a broken card like DAD is to get lucky, then that card should be banned, so it's irrelevant here anyhow.

 

Wulf is just a beatstick: In the end, games are won and lost by beatsticks attacking and killing. There is no such thing as "just" a beatstick - especially when that beatstick appears at random with no warning, costs the user nothing, and has 2100 ATK. At the very least, he blocks an incoming attack (saving the user 2100 LP) or forces removal (and thus +1's).

 

They're archetype-specific/Wulf is fine because it relies on luck/Celestia is just a themed Monarch: Learn to read.

 

Everything Crab says is true: You're an idiot. Especially since I change my mind all the time about stuff - until recently I would have scoffed at anyone suggesting that Celestia be dropped below 3. But maybe the universe changes every time I change my mind. That would be sweet, but it's clearly not true because I hang out with people who aren't time-travelers, aliens, and espers.

[Psycho Shocker Android]

Well you can't run celestia outside of LS and you destroy nothing if you steal an opponent's monster thus limiting greatly the playability of the card that's why you never see LS running 3 of these.

 

With Mobius your ooponent has 1 monster and 2 S/T you go soul exchange Mobius FTW.

[CrabHelmet]

Well you can't run celestia outside of LS

 

Stopped reading there.

 

I know my earlier post is long, but seriously, go read it.

[deathxy]

 

With Mobius your ooponent has 1 monster and 2 S/T you go soul exchange Mobius FTW.

 

you cant atack with that, and your opponent can chain to mobius

[BehindTheMask]

Hmm, I never thought about Celestia like that.

 

However, I do think it is fine @ 1.

 

Wulf is a big problem, and I agree it should be banned.

[Great Unclean One: VK]

It shouldn't be banned. It needs luck, and YGO frowns upon that.