Luna Lovegood Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Ah, but the meaning of fate is that your life is predetermined. Without fate, we can throw away the concept of cause and effect completely, as that is essentially a form of fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Ghest Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Fate-the development of events beyond a person's control. That does no mean it is predetermined, merely out of one's control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Lovegood Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Which means that free will doesn't exist, which goes against what you've already said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Welche Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Does it really mater? If fate is predetermined then we all live in a world that acts like a movie, without the good guy winning. If it isn't, we live in one of those "choose you own path" books. If fate exists then we have no choices. We are guided through life by a force that we can't see. Future telling is possible because it can't change. The flipside of this is that future telling becomes pointless because we cannot change the future meaning that everything we will have learned will be pointless. If there is no fate, then the future is up to every person. That makes future telling impossible. It means that we have no way of guessing how the future will happen. We can change the future making us God-like, but if we don't know how things will turn out then we will not wish to change the future. Either way humanity will not be deeply affected. In one case we know that future but can't change it and in the other situation we don't know the future but can change it. That means that all we know is that either way life goes on like normal. There is no difference. This thread is useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 So I have absolutely no choice over what I do? For some reason' date=' that makes no sense to me.[/quote'] It's not that you don't have choices. It's that those very choices are themselves the result of a combination of circumstances with experience and your disposition (itself a derivative of a combination of experiential and genetic factors). Thus, one who is aware of all those factors can determine exactly what you would do given any set of circumstances. Choice itself is a part of "fate." And @ Cain: Parallel universes are and always will be an abstract. Every time there are multiple possible outcomes, there are theoretically universes to account for each of those outcomes. We will always exist within our own set of outcomes. Because to exist within another set of outcomes is to make them our outcomes. Thus, they can be accounted for just like the outcomes we experience in our own "conventional" view of the universe. Gambling is 0% chance. When you roll a die, the number it will land on is determined by the force with which it is tossed, the angle at which it is tossed, the spin put on it at the toss, the hardness or softness of the tossing surface, the sharpness or roundness of the die's edges, the hardness or softness of the die itself, how bouncy or brittle the die is, the humidity in the air, the altitude of the region in which you are gambling, the presence of various other elements in the air, and the movement conditions of the air. (Are you playing outside? Are there people next to you moving around? How about your breathing?) You may not be aware of all these factors when you toss the die, but just because your mind itself does not perceive and therefore cannot account for each of these factors does not mean that they are not directly responsible for the die's result. A number of factors can likewise explain the order of a deck of cards after shuffling, or the result of a slot machine (that's just a complex algorithm). If a bus hits you when you could have biologically existed for ten more years: that's not chance. The timing at which you stepped out into the street, where you were looking when you did so, your speed, the foot you led with, the speed at which the bus was driving, the exact angle at which the bus was driving, the state of the bus driver's mind, his attentiveness, the strength of the bus's brake, wind conditions, and many other factors I cannot possibly account for all coalesce to explain why the bus hit you exactly when it did. Every event, with the exception of those observed on the quantum level, is explainable when all factors are examined. It's called science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze Pyro Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Certain events are predetermined. Everything else is easily changeable. People may say otherwise but recently things have been happening that are each highly unlikely but have happened in such a short space of time it is close to impossible so I guess fate is making it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 It's obvious that nobody knows whether fate's predetermined or not. WE'RE NOT SUPERPOWERED DEITIES SORRY. That being said, all opinions on whether it does or doesn't should be invalidated and be replaced with mere doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 It's obvious that nobody knows whether fate's predetermined or not. WE'RE NOT SUPERPOWERED DEITIES SORRY. That being said' date=' all opinions on whether it does or doesn't should be invalidated and be replaced with mere doubt.[/quote'] Read my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 It's obvious that nobody knows whether fate's predetermined or not. WE'RE NOT SUPERPOWERED DEITIES SORRY. That being said' date=' all opinions on whether it does or doesn't should be invalidated and be replaced with mere doubt.[/quote'] Read my post. Oh dear, it seems as though you have a different view on fate's meaning. There is a large margin of elements which one cannot control. There is a large range for different choices on what we can control. Fate IS the way in which those occur. Fate IS the way in which all events occur. All influences are built INTO fate. Fate is not an influence in of itself. To say that everything's influences can be explained so fate doesn't exist is to call fate a synonym of "magic", which it isn't. When you're holding someone at knifepoint, you can snicker at them and tell them that their fate looks grim. If fate was a mythical influential force as you seem to be assuming, this wouldn't make sense in the given context. Fate is more synonymous to words like "future" and "time" than it is to words like "magic". What the subject of debate here is isn't "does fate exist?" It's already a given that fate exists. It's whether or not it was already a fixed event that you were to be born into the family you were born in. It's whether or not it was already a fixed event that you were to grow up as a supreme dark lord or whatever floats your boat. If it were, it wouldn't necessarily have to make any difference towards how events unfold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlucardTheOld Posted December 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Wow this has become popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fategazer Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Fate might have something to do with it, and I like that idea (username). But mostly it has to do with your actions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 It's obvious that nobody knows whether fate's predetermined or not. WE'RE NOT SUPERPOWERED DEITIES SORRY. That being said' date=' all opinions on whether it does or doesn't should be invalidated and be replaced with mere doubt.[/quote'] Read my post. Oh dear, it seems as though you have a different view on fate's meaning. There is a large margin of elements which one cannot control. There is a large range for different choices on what we can control. Fate IS the way in which those occur. Fate IS the way in which all events occur. All influences are built INTO fate. Fate is not an influence in of itself. To say that everything's influences can be explained so fate doesn't exist is to call fate a synonym of "magic", which it isn't. When you're holding someone at knifepoint, you can snicker at them and tell them that their fate looks grim. If fate was a mythical influential force as you seem to be assuming, this wouldn't make sense in the given context. Fate is more synonymous to words like "future" and "time" than it is to words like "magic". What the subject of debate here is isn't "does fate exist?" It's already a given that fate exists. It's whether or not it was already a fixed event that you were to be born into the family you were born in. It's whether or not it was already a fixed event that you were to grow up as a supreme dark lord or whatever floats your boat. If it were, it wouldn't necessarily have to make any difference towards how events unfold. Considering that I was actually arguing in favor of the existence of fate, I think you surmise that I don't have any preconceptions of fate as being mythical. ^.^ As for your idea of a fixed event: Yes, of course there are fixed events in our future. Every single event from now until you die is fixed. Why? Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. It isn't really a matter of "now" and "then," it all just "is." Saying that your future isn't fixed is like saying that your past isn't fixed. The only difference is that we don't know our future, but our brains do allow us to retain relevant information from the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. Why does this mean that the way in which events unfold in the future is fixed and can't be influenced by anything to adapt or change what it otherwise would've been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JoshIcy Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 ITT: TDO drew out an explanation that could be said simply. Fate is predetermined, by our actions and those before us. No more, no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. Why does this mean that the way in which events unfold in the future is fixed and can't be influenced by anything to adapt or change what it otherwise would've been? Because any such "change" is already reflected in the timeline. In other words, it would not be a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. Why does this mean that the way in which events unfold in the future is fixed and can't be influenced by anything to adapt or change what it otherwise would've been? Because any such "change" is already reflected in the timeline. In other words' date=' it would not be a change.[/quote'] We might not know it was as a result of a change in schedule that something occurs when that event comes around, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. Why does this mean that the way in which events unfold in the future is fixed and can't be influenced by anything to adapt or change what it otherwise would've been? Because any such "change" is already reflected in the timeline. In other words' date=' it would not be a change.[/quote'] We might not know it was as a result of a change in schedule that something occurs when that event comes around, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't. I don't understand this post. D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. Why does this mean that the way in which events unfold in the future is fixed and can't be influenced by anything to adapt or change what it otherwise would've been? Because any such "change" is already reflected in the timeline. In other words' date=' it would not be a change.[/quote'] We might not know it was as a result of a change in schedule that something occurs when that event comes around, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't. I don't understand this post. D: Righty, well, I'm currently in the belief that there's no way of knowing that future events don't constantly change how they're to be resolved before resolution of said events actually happens. For example, if someone were to tap into the future with magical powers, all hypothetical of course, and saw that the world was to end in the year 2012, would it not be possible for that future to change itself for some reason or other rather than be fixed on that outcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasu Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Not really =PFate is predetermined' date=' by our actions and those before us. No more, no less.[/quote'] This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. Why does this mean that the way in which events unfold in the future is fixed and can't be influenced by anything to adapt or change what it otherwise would've been? Because any such "change" is already reflected in the timeline. In other words' date=' it would not be a change.[/quote'] We might not know it was as a result of a change in schedule that something occurs when that event comes around, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't. I don't understand this post. D: Righty, well, I'm currently in the belief that there's no way of knowing that future events don't constantly change how they're to be resolved before resolution of said events actually happens. For example, if someone were to tap into the future with magical powers, all hypothetical of course, and saw that the world was to end in the year 2012, would it not be possible for that future to change itself for some reason or other rather than be fixed on that outcome? The future would already be changed to be in preparation for 2012 because of his seeing it. This is a paradox... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Everything is already pre determined. Sorry to say that. This is because: 1) Everything is made out of elements.2) Chemical and Physical laws govern all elements3) Elements obey all Physical and Chemical Laws Ergo, Nothing we do is a free action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze Pyro Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. Why does this mean that the way in which events unfold in the future is fixed and can't be influenced by anything to adapt or change what it otherwise would've been? Because any such "change" is already reflected in the timeline. In other words' date=' it would not be a change.[/quote'] We might not know it was as a result of a change in schedule that something occurs when that event comes around, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't. I don't understand this post. D: Righty, well, I'm currently in the belief that there's no way of knowing that future events don't constantly change how they're to be resolved before resolution of said events actually happens. For example, if someone were to tap into the future with magical powers, all hypothetical of course, and saw that the world was to end in the year 2012, would it not be possible for that future to change itself for some reason or other rather than be fixed on that outcome? The future would already be changed to be in preparation for 2012 because of his seeing it. This is a paradox... A paradox can't strictly be created because even though you can go forward in time* you cannot go back in order to tell anyone. *You can use anti-matter to form a controlled explosion that will force you at almost light speed and because you are going faster everything else apears to go slower meaning if you travel a light year, away and back to Earth you will be one year in the 'future'. There must be some form of freedom because you control where you move and what you do and you can think about doing so. Fate does not control actions, just probability. This means it can allow friends and enemies to meet and it can bring you the booster packs with cards that fate has decided you to have. These certain events have been predetermined and are allowed to happen by the control of probability fate has over us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willieh Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Because time is actually just the fourth dimension of space. Why does this mean that the way in which events unfold in the future is fixed and can't be influenced by anything to adapt or change what it otherwise would've been? Because any such "change" is already reflected in the timeline. In other words' date=' it would not be a change.[/quote'] We might not know it was as a result of a change in schedule that something occurs when that event comes around, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't. I don't understand this post. D: Righty, well, I'm currently in the belief that there's no way of knowing that future events don't constantly change how they're to be resolved before resolution of said events actually happens. For example, if someone were to tap into the future with magical powers, all hypothetical of course, and saw that the world was to end in the year 2012, would it not be possible for that future to change itself for some reason or other rather than be fixed on that outcome? The future would already be changed to be in preparation for 2012 because of his seeing it. This is a paradox... A paradox can't strictly be created because even though you can go forward in time* you cannot go back in order to tell anyone. *You can use anti-matter to form a controlled explosion that will force you at almost light speed and because you are going faster everything else apears to go slower meaning if you travel a light year, away and back to Earth you will be one year in the 'future'. There must be some form of freedom because you control where you move and what you do and you can think about doing so. Fate does not control actions, just probability. This means it can allow friends and enemies to meet and it can bring you the booster packs with cards that fate has decided you to have. These certain events have been predetermined and are allowed to happen by the control of probability fate has over us. No, our actions are totally predetermined. You only move where you move because you think about doing so because something made you think to do so. =\ And time doesn't really physically exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlucardTheOld Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Just to clarify here if fates meaning.[spoiler=meaning]Fate (noun)1 the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power• the course of someone's life, or the outcome of a particular situation for someone or something, seen as beyond their control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Just to clarify here if fates meaning.[spoiler=meaning]Fate (noun)1 the development of events beyond a person's control' date=' regarded as determined by a supernatural power• the course of someone's life, or the outcome of a particular situation for someone or something, seen as beyond their control [/quote'] The assumption was pretty much already made that we're dropping the religious overtones from the meaning. The second option accurately describes what we're all saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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