Rant - Tuner Comparisons

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

Flamvell Magician is the second best Tuner' date=' barely behind PSZ. So of course he's the best level 4 Tuner.

[/quote']

 

First off, the thread was specifially speaking of lvl 4 tuners so don't bring PSZ into a topic he has no business being in.

 

Second, I've mentioned this atleast 5 times and noone is getting the picture. You can't compare tuners to tuners of a different level. Each level has an entirely different aim of synchros and purposes, so stop being complete and utter idiots and let that through your thick skulls.

 

I won't mention tuners above lvl 4 since they are scarcely used and have little to no use in the meta.

 

Lvl 1:

Examples: Blackwing - Vayu the Emblem of Honor, Alien Ammonite

 

Focus: Specialty. Lvl 5

 

Ignoring the effect of Vayu, this group of tuners tends to be more specialized and is usually only meant for their own archetypes, lvl 5 synchros, and higher lvl synchros in swarm capable decks.

 

Lvl 2:

Examples: Plaguespreader Zombie, Krebons, Deep Sea Diva, Reese the Ice Princess

 

Focus: Versatility. Lvls 6&8

 

With most monsters used being lvl 4 and lvl 6, these tuners focus on lvl 6 and 8 synchros. In comparison, lvl 2 tuners are more popular and tend to be faster as they are the most versatile because of their low level. Occasionally they can bring out lvl 5 tuners, but they focus on lvls 6 and 8.

 

Lvl 3:

Examples: Blackwing - Gale the Whirlwind, Black Salvo, Genex Controller X-Saber Airbellum

 

Focus: Tech. Lvl 7

 

This set of tuners is restricted in what they can grab but allows lvl 7 synchros to flourish. We can all remember when Gale and Black Rose were unlimited, they wrecked the field left and right. With Sangan being popular (for obvious reasons) they occasionally grab lvl 6, but prefer lvl 7.

 

Lvl 4:

Examples: Flamvell Magician, Rose, Warrior of Revenge, Mist Valley Soldier

 

Focus: Specialty. Lvl 8

 

Having gained a lvl or two over other tuners, this set of tuners is very restricted in what they can get, but make it very easy to grab lvl 8 synchros, Stardust being the most commen. Usually only used in dedicated builds, lvl 4 tuners offer easy access to higher lvl synchros while giving up versatility in the process.

 

As you can see, every lvl of tuner has a specific role and can hardly be compared to one another, so stop being pricks and expand your mind a tad.

 

DAZ out.

[BehindTheMask]

Whole-heartedly agree.

 

Also, it's even harder to compare, because of support cards in the deck.

[CrabHelmet]

I can certainly compare Tuners to other Tuners of different levels, just as I can compare Caius to Breaker. You're allowed to compare two cards without saying that one is strictly superior to the other in every conceivable way by fulfilling exactly the same function except better; Sparks and Krebons are very different cards, but I can still say that Krebons is superior.

[darkwolf777]

I can certainly compare Tuners to other Tuners of different levels' date=' just as I can compare Caius to Breaker. You're allowed to compare two cards without saying that one is strictly superior to the other in every conceivable way by fulfilling exactly the same function except better; Sparks and Krebons are very different cards, but I can still say that Krebons is superior.

[/quote']

 

Apples to Oranges, my friend.

 

Even then, I agree with what you say. No matter what you compare it to, things like Petit Moth will still be worse than other cards, even cards that aren't monster cards. Its just too easy to compare nearly anything and say Petit Moth is worse x.o;

[Scatty]

I can certainly compare Tuners to other Tuners of different levels' date=' just as I can compare Caius to Breaker. You're allowed to compare two cards without saying that one is strictly superior to the other in every conceivable way by fulfilling exactly the same function except better; Sparks and Krebons are very different cards, but I can still say that Krebons is superior.

[/quote']

 

Apples to Oranges, my friend.

 

Even then, I agree with what you say. No matter what you compare it to, things like Petit Moth will still be worse than other cards, even cards that aren't monster cards. Its just too easy to compare nearly anything and say Petit Moth is worse x.o;

Larvae moth!

 

 

But...you can't say Level 4 Tuners give up versatility. Level 8 synchros are the best synchros anyway, and Summoner Monk exists.

 

Also, most Level 8 synchros require generic summoning conditions

[Aximil]

Flamvell Magician is the second best Tuner' date=' barely behind PSZ. So of course he's the best level 4 Tuner.

[/quote']

 

First off, the thread was specifially speaking of lvl 4 tuners so don't bring PSZ into a topic he has no business being in.

 

So, if someone were to make a thread about Mark of the Rose for example, we couldn't compare it to Change of Heart, Mind Control, Brain Control, Goyo Guardian, or Tragoedia?

[Scatty]

Why compare a card so weak with cards so broken?

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

I can certainly compare Tuners to other Tuners of different levels' date=' just as I can compare Caius to Breaker. You're allowed to compare two cards without saying that one is strictly superior to the other in every conceivable way by fulfilling exactly the same function except better; Sparks and Krebons are very different cards, but I can still say that Krebons is superior.

[/quote']

 

Ok, how about you shouldn't because there is no point in it? Sure you can compare them, but it's hard to say that Diva is better than Rose because she's 2 levels lower when Rose has an entirely different purpose than Diva does.

[BehindTheMask]

Flamvell Magician is the second best Tuner' date=' barely behind PSZ. So of course he's the best level 4 Tuner.

[/quote']

 

First off, the thread was specifially speaking of lvl 4 tuners so don't bring PSZ into a topic he has no business being in.

 

So, if someone were to make a thread about Mark of the Rose for example, we couldn't compare it to Change of Heart, Mind Control, Brain Control, Goyo Guardian, or Tragoedia?

 

You could, however, the difficulty is with the nuances. Sure, on a basic level you can compare a set of cards that do similar things, however, after you zoom the scope of your comparison, it becomes obvious that each card is used for different decks.

 

For example, Diva vs Krebons was hotly debated for a while. Even then, the only conclusion you could reliable get was "it depends on what you want, speed vs consistency, and what cards you are playing it with."

 

The thing with your Mark of the Rose example is that each card does something different, as well as take control of a monster. Goyo has a 2800 body, and is in the extra deck. Mind Control has restrictions, etc.

[Aximil]

Flamvell Magician is the second best Tuner' date=' barely behind PSZ. So of course he's the best level 4 Tuner.

[/quote']

 

First off, the thread was specifially speaking of lvl 4 tuners so don't bring PSZ into a topic he has no business being in.

 

So, if someone were to make a thread about Mark of the Rose for example, we couldn't compare it to Change of Heart, Mind Control, Brain Control, Goyo Guardian, or Tragoedia?

 

You could, however, the difficulty is with the nuances. Sure, on a basic level you can compare a set of cards that do similar things, however, after you zoom the scope of your comparison, it becomes obvious that each card is used for different decks.

 

For example, Diva vs Krebons was hotly debated for a while. Even then, the only conclusion you could reliable get was "it depends on what you want, speed vs consistency, and what cards you are playing it with."

 

The thing with your Mark of the Rose example is that each card does something different, as well as take control of a monster. Goyo has a 2800 body, and is in the extra deck. Mind Control has restrictions, etc.

 

But Flamvell Magician and PSZ both tune so they can be compared using the same logic.

[darkwolf777]

I can certainly compare Tuners to other Tuners of different levels' date=' just as I can compare Caius to Breaker. You're allowed to compare two cards without saying that one is strictly superior to the other in every conceivable way by fulfilling exactly the same function except better; Sparks and Krebons are very different cards, but I can still say that Krebons is superior.

[/quote']

 

Apples to Oranges, my friend.

 

Even then, I agree with what you say. No matter what you compare it to, things like Petit Moth will still be worse than other cards, even cards that aren't monster cards. Its just too easy to compare nearly anything and say Petit Moth is worse x.o;

Larvae moth!

 

That's what I meant to use in my example ><

[Scatty]

Flamvell Magician is the second best Tuner' date=' barely behind PSZ. So of course he's the best level 4 Tuner.

[/quote']

 

First off, the thread was specifially speaking of lvl 4 tuners so don't bring PSZ into a topic he has no business being in.

 

So, if someone were to make a thread about Mark of the Rose for example, we couldn't compare it to Change of Heart, Mind Control, Brain Control, Goyo Guardian, or Tragoedia?

 

You could, however, the difficulty is with the nuances. Sure, on a basic level you can compare a set of cards that do similar things, however, after you zoom the scope of your comparison, it becomes obvious that each card is used for different decks.

 

For example, Diva vs Krebons was hotly debated for a while. Even then, the only conclusion you could reliable get was "it depends on what you want, speed vs consistency, and what cards you are playing it with."

 

The thing with your Mark of the Rose example is that each card does something different, as well as take control of a monster. Goyo has a 2800 body, and is in the extra deck. Mind Control has restrictions, etc.

 

But Flamvell Magician and PSZ both tune so they can be compared using the same logic.

 

PSZ CAN be used as a Level 4 Tuner, whereas Flamvell can't be used as a Level 2 one. Also, PSZ can synch twice.

 

PSZ is the best. End of story.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

But Flamvell Magician and PSZ both tune so they can be compared using the same logic.

 

You are doing the exact opposite of what BtM is talking about' date=' keeping your scope to far out, and using a microscope to examine one tiny segment of it. Sure, both can tune, but PSZ + lvl 4 non-tuner = lvl 6 monster, not a lvl 8.

 

Btw, what I meant by "losing versatility" is that lvl 4's are really only used for lvl 8 synchros and it's very hard to use them for another lvl synchro. Lvl 2 tuners can easily go for most every level while lvl 4's restrict that by having 2 more levels to work with.[hr']

PSZ CAN be used as a Level 4 Tuner' date=' whereas Flamvell can't be used as a Level 2 one. Also, PSZ can synch twice.

 

PSZ is the best. End of story.

[/quote']

 

But can PSZ be summoned via Flamvell Firedog? What about Rekindling? PSZ is a -X no matter how you look at it while with Magician it's almost always +X since you rarely ever see him summoned from the hand. PSZ may have the most versatility (sound familiar?) but that doesn't mean he's better than a good lvl 4 tuner like Magician.

 

Edit: Also, Magician can be used as a "lvl 2 tuner" in your words if you have a lvl 2 non-tuner :?

[Aximil]

Flamvell Magician is the second best Tuner' date=' barely behind PSZ. So of course he's the best level 4 Tuner.

[/quote']

 

First off, the thread was specifially speaking of lvl 4 tuners so don't bring PSZ into a topic he has no business being in.

 

So, if someone were to make a thread about Mark of the Rose for example, we couldn't compare it to Change of Heart, Mind Control, Brain Control, Goyo Guardian, or Tragoedia?

 

You could, however, the difficulty is with the nuances. Sure, on a basic level you can compare a set of cards that do similar things, however, after you zoom the scope of your comparison, it becomes obvious that each card is used for different decks.

 

For example, Diva vs Krebons was hotly debated for a while. Even then, the only conclusion you could reliable get was "it depends on what you want, speed vs consistency, and what cards you are playing it with."

 

The thing with your Mark of the Rose example is that each card does something different, as well as take control of a monster. Goyo has a 2800 body, and is in the extra deck. Mind Control has restrictions, etc.

 

But Flamvell Magician and PSZ both tune so they can be compared using the same logic.

 

You are doing the exact opposite of what BtM is talking about, keeping your scope to far out, and using a microscope to examine one tiny segment of it. Sure, both can tune, but PSZ + lvl 4 non-tuner = lvl 6 monster, not a lvl 8.

But PSZ can easily be used as a level 4 since it can re-appear for another tune very very easily.

Btw, what I meant by "losing versatility" is that lvl 4's are really only used for lvl 8 synchros and it's very hard to use them for another lvl synchro.Totally. Because Debris Dragon makes it easy to get level 8s. And level 3s and 2s that aren't Tuners don't exist. Lvl 2 tuners can easily go for most every level while lvl 4's restrict that by having 2 more levels to work with.They can hit anything but Armory Arm, unless there's more generic level 4 or lower Synchros that have been released.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

You are doing the exact opposite of what BtM is talking about' date=' keeping your scope to far out, and using a microscope to examine one tiny segment of it. Sure, both can tune, but PSZ + lvl 4 non-tuner = lvl 6 monster, not a lvl 8.

[b']But PSZ can easily be used as a level 4 since it can re-appear for another tune very very easily.[/b]

Btw, what I meant by "losing versatility" is that lvl 4's are really only used for lvl 8 synchros and it's very hard to use them for another lvl synchro.Totally. Because Debris Dragon makes it easy to get level 8s. And level 3s and 2s that aren't Tuners don't exist. Lvl 2 tuners can easily go for most every level while lvl 4's restrict that by having 2 more levels to work with.They can hit anything but Armory Arm, unless there's more generic level 4 or lower Synchros that have been released.

 

If someone was looking for a lvl 4 tuner to add into their deck, would you recommend PSZ or Magician?

[darkwolf777]

Flamvell Magician is the second best Tuner' date=' barely behind PSZ. So of course he's the best level 4 Tuner.

[/quote']

 

First off, the thread was specifially speaking of lvl 4 tuners so don't bring PSZ into a topic he has no business being in.

 

So, if someone were to make a thread about Mark of the Rose for example, we couldn't compare it to Change of Heart, Mind Control, Brain Control, Goyo Guardian, or Tragoedia?

 

You could, however, the difficulty is with the nuances. Sure, on a basic level you can compare a set of cards that do similar things, however, after you zoom the scope of your comparison, it becomes obvious that each card is used for different decks.

 

For example, Diva vs Krebons was hotly debated for a while. Even then, the only conclusion you could reliable get was "it depends on what you want, speed vs consistency, and what cards you are playing it with."

 

The thing with your Mark of the Rose example is that each card does something different, as well as take control of a monster. Goyo has a 2800 body, and is in the extra deck. Mind Control has restrictions, etc.

 

But Flamvell Magician and PSZ both tune so they can be compared using the same logic.

 

PSZ CAN be used as a Level 4 Tuner, whereas Flamvell can't be used as a Level 2 one. Also, PSZ can synch twice.

 

PSZ is the best. End of story.

 

Depends on the deck x.o I like my Stardust Assault deck, but Stardust Dragon isn't level 6. if i'm working to pump out Stardust Dragons, I'm usually more hoping for Flamvell Magician to appear or to Special Summon it using. I'm not saying I don't use Plaguespreader either in it as Goyo and Brionac are never a bad thing, x.o

 

I might have said this in the other topic but Plaguespreader and Gale are probably the best stand alone tuners, but with support, cards like Flamvell Magician stand out a lot.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

I might have said this in the other topic but Plaguespreader and Gale are probably the best stand alone tuners' date=' but with support, cards like Flamvell Magician stand out a lot.

[/quote']

 

You probably said that in the Gale vs. Plague thread that popped up (which also started me thinking about this thread). This is what I'm talking about, PSZ may be the best "stand alone" tuner, but considering everything and not just the tuners themselves, it's a fairly even battle. Just because something is more splashable doesn't always make it better, infact, many would argue JD is more broken than DAD simply because of PoC allowing a full field nuke in any deck.

[Aximil]

If someone was looking for a lvl 4 tuner to add into their deck' date=' would you recommend PSZ or Magician?

[/quote']

 

I'd recommend PSZ over Flamvell Magician unless they could fit the Firedogs and Rekindling.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

If someone was looking for a lvl 4 tuner to add into their deck' date=' would you recommend PSZ or Magician?

[/quote']

 

I'd recommend PSZ over Flamvell Magician unless they could fit the Firedogs and Rekindling.

 

There isn't any point in using Magician unless you have that stuff ('cept for Spellcasters), and did you completely ignore the 2 posts after that?

[Aximil]

If someone was looking for a lvl 4 tuner to add into their deck' date=' would you recommend PSZ or Magician?

[/quote']

 

I'd recommend PSZ over Flamvell Magician unless they could fit the Firedogs and Rekindling.

 

There isn't any point in using Magician unless you have that stuff ('cept for Spellcasters), and did you completely ignore the 2 posts after that?

I'd rather use 1 slot then about 5+ slots for the Magician engine unless I'm focusing on the Magician engine.

 

Anyway, kind of, I quoted your post, went to the bathroom, and came back to write my response out and post it. They must have posted while I was away.

[Scatty]

If someone was looking for a lvl 4 tuner to add into their deck' date=' would you recommend PSZ or Magician?

[/quote']

 

I'd recommend PSZ over Flamvell Magician unless they could fit the Firedogs and Rekindling.

Who would put Rekindling in their deck for a single card?

 

Anyway, I use a deck that contains 8 Level 4 Tuners, 11 Level 4 non-Tuners and PSZ. So My Level 4 Tuners have all the versatility they need.

[darkwolf777]

If someone was looking for a lvl 4 tuner to add into their deck' date=' would you recommend PSZ or Magician?

[/quote']

 

I'd recommend PSZ over Flamvell Magician unless they could fit the Firedogs and Rekindling.

Who would put Rekindling in their deck for a single card?

 

Anyway, I use a deck that contains 8 Level 4 Tuners, 11 Level 4 non-Tuners and PSZ. So My Level 4 Tuners have all the versatility they need.

 

*raises hand on the "Rekindling" question*

 

As long as there even just 1 Flamevell Monster in the Graveyard, its enough to Special Summon with Rekindling, then Normal Summon an appropriate level 4 monster from the hand (the tuner or non-tuner counterpart), and of course even better if there's a Firedog and Magician in the Graveyard. i only use 2 in my Stardust Assault deck.

 

Unneeded Spellcards at the time are usually eaten by my Summoner Monk.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

Anyway' date=' I use a deck that contains 8 Level 4 Tuners, 11 Level 4 non-Tuners and PSZ. So My Level 4 Tuners have all the versatility they need.

[/quote']

Btw' date=' what I meant by "losing versatility" is that lvl 4's are really only used for lvl 8 synchros and it's very hard to use them for another lvl synchro. Lvl 2 tuners can easily go for most every level while lvl 4's restrict that by having 2 more levels to work with.[/quote']

[Aximil]

Anyway' date=' I use a deck that contains 8 Level 4 Tuners, 11 Level 4 non-Tuners and PSZ. So My Level 4 Tuners have all the versatility they need.

[/quote']

Btw' date=' what I meant by "losing versatility" is that lvl 4's are really only used for lvl 8 synchros and it's very hard to use them for another lvl synchro. Lvl 2 tuners can easily go for most every level while lvl 4's restrict that by having 2 more levels to work with.[/quote']

Btw' date=' what I meant by "losing versatility" is that lvl 4's are really only used for lvl 8 synchros and it's very hard to use them for another lvl synchro.[b']Totally. Because Debris Dragon makes it easy to get level 8s. And level 3s and 2s that aren't Tuners don't exist.[/b] Lvl 2 tuners can easily go for most every level while lvl 4's restrict that by having 2 more levels to work with.They can hit anything but Armory Arm, unless there's more generic level 4 or lower Synchros that have been released.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

Lvl 4 tuners also help keep advantage higher, double syncing with PSZ is:

 

PSZ + lvl 4 non-tuner = -1

revive PSZ = -1 (since you must draw it next turn)

synch PSZ with lvl 6 synchro = -1

 

-1 + (-1) + (-1) = -3

 

Unless you have something like Mezuki + Goblin Zombie to offset that advantage, a lvl 4 tuner is only a -1, but usually Magician is summoned as atleast a +1, ending in a +0.

---

Btw' date=' what I meant by "losing versatility" is that lvl 4's are really only used for lvl 8 synchros and it's very hard to use them for another lvl synchro.[b']Totally. Because Debris Dragon makes it easy to get level 8s. And level 3s and 2s that aren't Tuners don't exist.[/b] Lvl 2 tuners can easily go for most every level while lvl 4's restrict that by having 2 more levels to work with.They can hit anything but Armory Arm, unless there's more generic level 4 or lower Synchros that have been released.

 

And Debris can only synch for Dragons, offsetting the versatility of it.