3-0 Banlists

[Fraz]

Konami's banlist is already a 3-0 list by crabs guidelines.

[TechnoDoomedOne]

@Polaris.

 

Thanks for your post (and I am not being sarcastic), you have made clear some things for me. I will gladly give more reasons later, when I am no longer to be insulted.

 

Also, and as comment for your post, if a card is broken it's extreme, which means it is not good. Normally extreme options (like banning) do not help a card nor the game because it is also an extreme, but you have no other options or the card is going to break the game, so... For desperate situations, desperate solutions.

[arkel]

Konami's banlist is already a 3-0 list by crabs guidelines.

 

Really? Just for 1 example, let's examine Summoner Monk. It does not have a "banning condition" or inappropriately interact with another copy of itself. However, Konami has it limited.

[Toffee.]

Konami's banlist is already a 3-0 list by crabs guidelines.

 

Really? Just for 1 example' date=' let's examine Summoner Monk. It does not have a "banning condition" or inappropriately interact with another copy of itself. However, Konami has it limited.

[/quote']

 

Rescue Cat is a level 4.

........

Sure.

[TechnoDoomedOne]

Really? Just for 1 example' date=' let's examine Summoner Monk. It does not have a "banning condition" or inappropriately interact with another copy of itself. However, Konami has it limited.

[/quote']

 

Rescue Cat is a level 4.

........

Sure.

 

This. Ban Rescue Cat and this may be back at 3.

 

Still, it's a good Synchro Machine as it can give you a Tuner to allow instant LV8 Synchro, but at least it will cost you a Spell.

[Toffee.]

Really? Just for 1 example' date=' let's examine Summoner Monk. It does not have a "banning condition" or inappropriately interact with another copy of itself. However, Konami has it limited.

[/quote']

 

Rescue Cat is a level 4.

........

Sure.

 

This. Ban Rescue Cat and this may be back at 3.

 

Still, it's a good Synchro Machine as it can give you a Tuner to allow instant LV8 Synchro, but at least it will cost you a Spell.

 

......Cant we just put Summoner Monk@0 and then put Cat@3?

A cheeseburger obsessed metagame would be funny

-OWAIT, THAT ALREADY EXISTED.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Konami's banlist is already a 3-0 list by crabs guidelines.

 

Not really... For instance Advanced Ritual Arts is limited, but it has no interaction with other copies of itself that would make that a logical decision.

[CrabHelmet]

Crab' date='[/b'] nowhere on the first post says that your quote is part of the 3-0 banlist argument. I thought that as the post says to discuss the 3-0 banlist logic, arkel was giving the two sides of the story. Then, I saw that it was not that way in my second post, on the last part. Sorry for beign such an stupid that I cannot see things that are not posted at first glance.

 

Both posts quoted in the opening posts say exactly the same thing -the first one explicitly notes that 3-0 allows Limits and Semi-Limits for things like Night Assailant. The only reason you were confused is that you didn't read properly.

 

Also... are you always such a moron? You always seem to search for an excuse to argue with someone. Not to say you always think you have the last word and that you aren't wrong. In fact' date=' I have yet to see a post where you say you might not have reason, or give the reason to anyone else that isn't you (or agrees with you).

 

At least, Crab, I was giving you the reason when I saw I was wrong, even if I didn't agree with it. I know what modesty is.

[/quote']

 

It's like everyone on YCM has exactly the same drill committed to memory. Say something stupid, 2, 3, claim that people aren't allowed to point out that they've said something stupid, 2, 3, accuse everyone of being too egotistical, 2, 3.

 

If someone says that something is not easy' date=' it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be thought about it, it means that it should be thought about it more carefully,

[/quote']

 

Ah, there was our problem. We were proposing to do things as recklessly as possible. Thanks for showing us the way!

 

and not only one people or a group of them' date=' but a large collective.

[/quote']

 

Indeed, intelligent discussion is best conducted not by forming a group of those best versed in the theory and logic to debate but rather by polling all of YCM's morons. It's sort of like how scientific research is conducted not by study and experimentation but rather by just polling rednecks to see what they think. Yup, sun orbits earth!

 

I don't know if it is the case' date=' but I don't think I am the only one to think the 3-0 banlist logic is flawed.

[/quote']

 

And yet you cannot articulate any reasons for its logic being flawed beyond setting up a straw man that it allows not Limits whatsoever and throwing around claims that everyone's arguments are irrelevant because they think they're right and therefore they are egotistical and therefore they are wrong.

 

Also' date=' I know you don't think you're Konami. You're not stupid, even if it seems that I am by your logic. I was only stating that there are people that would really like to see this banlist applied, when it certainly will not. But, hey, I must be some kind of retard to ever dare to write that line (or any line of my post).

[/quote']

 

Screw those people for thinking reality is imperfect. Screw those people, I say!

 

"NO EXTREMES are good' date=' NEVER" = statement of balance

I will not accept Philosophy as an argument to anything, because Philosophy cannot be proved. Science can, and it is a quite commonly accepted standard that extremes are not good. You can see that in biology, medicine, chemestry... Also, and if you want to recurr to philosophy, I could say that everything is relative, so no one has reason.

[/quote']

 

Someone translate this into English; it's seriously too badly-written for me to fully comprehend it. I think its point is that science proves that extremes are bad because Newtonian physics break down at a quantum level or chemistry somehow proves that extreme forms of banlist construction in card games are bad or something, but it really doesn't make any sense at all.

 

Konami's banlist is already a 3-0 list by crabs guidelines.

 

No' date=' it doesn't. It doesn't even come close. The [i']very first card[/i] on the Limited list is Advanced Ritual Art. What's that doing there? Is Konami terrified about some amazing combo of Advanced Ritual Art + Advanced Ritual Art? And does that terrifying combo that I can't quite imagine suddenly not work when it is instead used via Advanced Ritual Art + Preparations for the Ritual? And from there, it just descends into further stupidity, from all the random Limited power cards like Brain Control (obviously included under Category A for its positive influence on the game by discouraging, uh, Summoning monsters, I guess?) to just plain random choices like 2 Bottomless Trap Hole (because two are fine but a combo of three of them is somehow a problem?) to things like Overload Fusion that are present solely because of their core philosophy of attacking the support of problems like Chimeratech instead of just plain banning them.

[TechnoDoomedOne]

By the logic of 3-0 banlists, how would you adress the "Butterfly Dager - Elma" combo issue?

[CrabHelmet]

By the logic of 3-0 banlists' date=' how would you adress the "Butterfly Dager - Elma" combo issue?

[/quote']

 

The Elma + Gearfried combo cannot be permitted, so the combo must be banned. To ban the combo, one of the components must be banned. To determine which component we should ban, since neither component is problematic on its own, we look at the components and see which contributes the most to the game by its continued existence.

 

(The commonly accepted answer is Gearfried, which has decent stats alone and has a few neat combos like Blast With Chain and Smoke Grenade of the Thief that people have built decks around in the past, and which also has the added bonus of countering a few cards like Mark of the Rose; in contrast, Butterfly Dagger - Elma is really just about useless, since its effect is primarily useful for stupid loops, and its Guardian is terrible even with it legal; therefore, most 3-0 lists have Elma banned and Gearfried legal. Note, however, that you can make a case for either card without breaking the principles of 3-0 logic.)

[arkel]

Really? Just for 1 example' date=' let's examine Summoner Monk. It does not have a "banning condition" or inappropriately interact with another copy of itself. However, Konami has it limited.

[/quote']

 

Rescue Cat is a level 4.

........

Sure.

 

This. Ban Rescue Cat and this may be back at 3.

 

How about doing your research before making ignorant comments like this? All good 3-0 lists have Cat banned.

 

Also, Crab, has Atem made a new list lately? It might be wise to post it here.

[TechnoDoomedOne]

How about doing your research before making ignorant comments like this? All good 3-0 lists have Cat banned.

 

Also' date=' Crab, has Atem made a new list lately? It might be wise to post it here.

[/quote']

 

I know all good 3-0 banlists have Cat banned. Hell, all good banlist should have it, I don't even know why Konami has not banned it yet, it is just a cheap Synchro machine.

 

And my comment isn't ignorant, I was stating that this card's main problem is bringing out Rescue Cat, but even with it banned, I don't know if Summoner Monk could go at 3, because it means an instant LV8 Synchro at the cost of discarding a Spell. So I guess it would be go to 0, no?

[Fraz]

PROHIBITED

 

Category 1) The card gives too large a reward too easily for too small a cost. Most of these cards are splashable, but not all; a theme support card that lets you draw 7 cards for no real cost would be banworthy under this, despite not being splashable. Example: Raigeki.

 

Category 2) The card enables one or more OTK's and/or FTK's to be accomplished easily. Often, these cards are used solely for the purpose of OTK's and/or FTK's. Example: Magical Explosion.

 

Category 3) The card invalidates a basic mechanical part of the game by effectively preventing it from ever being used with any merit; a good game does not turn its back on its basic mechanics. Example: Nobleman of Crossout (invalidates Flips).

 

Category 4) Similar to number 3, the card invalidates a certain playstyle that would otherwise contribute to the game. Example: Cyber Dragon (invalidates Stall).

 

Advanced Ritual Art falls under all of these. Ritual Summoning was created as a way to evolve existing cards into more a much more powerful boss monster, however Advanced Ritual Art allows you to use non existing cards to ritual summon. This means you end up with a boss monster out for too little cost or setup and is essentially turning its back on the ritual mechanic. Obv it enables OTKs too easily at 3.

 

Its left limited because its upside is that it helps keep Ritual Monsters an active part of meta.

[arkel]

PROHIBITED

 

Category 1) The card gives too large a reward too easily for too small a cost. Most of these cards are splashable' date=' but not all; a theme support card that lets you draw 7 cards for no real cost would be banworthy under this, despite not being splashable. Example: Raigeki.

 

[b']Cost: being forced to run bad monsters and having the ritual monster in your hand. Reward: play a ritual. Seems balanced once all banworthy rituals are banned.[/b]

 

Category 2) The card enables one or more OTK's and/or FTK's to be accomplished easily. Often, these cards are used solely for the purpose of OTK's and/or FTK's. Example: Magical Explosion.

 

Does not enable OTKs on its own when cards like Demise are put to 0.

 

Category 3) The card invalidates a basic mechanical part of the game by effectively preventing it from ever being used with any merit; a good game does not turn its back on its basic mechanics. Example: Nobleman of Crossout (invalidates Flips).

 

What basic mechanic does ARA invalidate?

 

Category 4) Similar to number 3, the card invalidates a certain playstyle that would otherwise contribute to the game. Example: Cyber Dragon (invalidates Stall).

 

How does ARA invalidate any sort of playstyle?

 

Advanced Ritual Art falls under all of these. Ritual Summoning was created as a way to evolve existing cards into more a much more powerful boss monster, however Advanced Ritual Art allows you to use non existing cards to ritual summon. This means you end up with a boss monster out for too little cost or setup and is essentially turning its back on the ritual mechanic. Obv it enables OTKs too easily at 3.

 

Its left limited because its upside is that it helps keep Ritual Monsters an active part of meta.

[Fraz]

1. Its not balanced in that sense. It goes against the point behind ritual summoning.

2. Doesn't have to enable OTKs on its own, just has to enable OTKs.

3. Basic Mechanic is Ritual Summoning.

4. Invalidates Ritual Monster decks.

 

Of course you'd see all that was explained in my post if you actually read it.

[CrabHelmet]

Advanced Ritual Art falls under all of these. Ritual Summoning was created as a way to evolve existing cards into more a much more powerful boss monster' date=' however Advanced Ritual Art allows you to use non existing cards to ritual summon. This means you end up with a boss monster out for too little cost or setup and is essentially turning its back on the ritual mechanic. Obv it enables OTKs too easily at 3.

 

Its left limited because its upside is that it helps keep Ritual Monsters an active part of meta.

[/quote']

 

You don't seem to understand how Category A is supposed to be used. It is applied only sparingly to things like Mirror Force that, by the fact of their existence, increase the level of skill in the game by providing general discouragement to swarm and attack en masse. What it doesn't apply to is "Oh, this deck is weak, let's give it something broken to try to balance that out" - that there is pure Konamilogic. It's a standard 3-0 argument, generally given in response to claims that Lightlords will die without Judgment Dragoon or Dark Worlds will die without Graceful Charity and such, that any deck that cannot survive without broken cards does not deserve to survive; its continued existence is never worth retaining unbalanced cards in the game.

 

Category A is already questionable enough when applied to things like Mirror Force and Heavy Storm, and a lot of 3-0 lists do away with it entirely - and, indeed, if we had balanced alternatives to things like Mirror Force and Heavy Storm, in the same way that Lightning Vortex is a balanced alternative to Raigeki, then Category A certainly would not be necessary.

 

It is a core principle of Konamilogic to leave problem cards in the game to prop up various decks. It is a core principle of 3-0 to eliminate problem cards regardless of whether or not decks that use them will be able to cope without them.

 

(Not to mention that the Ritual Devil series exists.)

 

However, I would also argue that your conclusion that Advanced Ritual Art would, under the stated rules of 3-0, need to be prohibited. If Demise, a field-nuker whose sole purpose is to enable these OTKs, is banned, then Advanced Ritual Art ceases to be an OTK enabler. Certainly, you get a boss monster out, but in order to make use of multiple Advanced Ritual Arts, you'll need to have a deck flooded with Normal Monsters. And as boss monsters go, Rituals sans Demise aren't even that strong; for a two-card combo that requires a deck full of weak cards, the reward isn't exactly unreasonable. And given that the Ritual Devils largely outclass Advanced Ritual Art, would you have them banned as well for denying the pure Ritual method of spending three or more cards in a combo to get out one not-even-that-impressive monster?

[Toffee.]

If my memory/observation of previous topics about 3-0 lists is correct, THIS sort of deck would be legal:

 

Magician of Faith x3

Man-Eater Bug x3

Cloudian Sheep Cloud x3

Dandylion x3

Junk Synchron x3

Deep Diver x2

Old Vindictive Magician x3

 

Creature Swap x3

Hand Destruction x3

Pot of Avarice x2

Magical Stone Excavation x2

Scapegoat x3

 

Compulsory Evacuation Device x3

Raigeki Break x2

Dust Tornado x2

 

Total - 40

 

Because I'm pretty sure all forms of generic removal would be B& on said 3-0 list.

Still, this sort of deck is only a guess.

[CrabHelmet]

Not all forms of generic removal, Armadilloz; in fact, most forms of generic removal that aren't already banned would still be legal. But yes, that list would probably be legal, with only the possible exception of Dandylion.

[Toffee.]

Not all forms of generic removal' date=' Armadilloz; in fact, most forms of generic removal that aren't already banned would still be legal. But yes, that list would probably be legal, with only the possible exception of Dandylion.

[/quote']

 

Well I was iffy about Mirror Force/Torrential/Heavy Storm, as I'm sure you have reasons behind them.

(Well, maybe not Mirror Force, but ehh...)

 

And I take it Dandylion would go to 0 >__>

[arkel]

As far as I know, all token-generating cards are at 3 on 3-0 lists.

[BehindTheMask]

Your opening post should have been:

 

3-0 Banlists are useless, as they only apply to theory-oh.

[Toffee.]

As far as I know' date=' all token-generating cards are at 3 on 3-0 lists.

[/quote']

Ojama Trio@3

Dark Gaia@0

[CrabHelmet]

Your opening post should have been:

 

3-0 Banlists are useless' date=' as they only apply to theory-oh.

[/quote']

 

All topics here should be replaced by:

 

Yu-Gi-Oh! is useless, as it won't help you do well in school.

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

As far as I know' date=' all token-generating cards are at 3 on 3-0 lists.

[/quote']

Ojama Trio@3

Dark Gaia@0

 

Dark Gaia would be banned on a good list with or without Ojama Trio. Also, Trio should be at 3 anyway.

[BehindTheMask]

Your opening post should have been:

 

3-0 Banlists are useless' date=' as they only apply to theory-oh.

[/quote']

 

All topics here should be replaced by:

 

Yu-Gi-Oh! is useless, as it won't help you do well in school.

 

Nah, you misunderstand. Theory-oh is good, however, there needs to be practical application to the actual card game.

 

The only thing that goes on in the 3-0 lists are the theoretical place listing on cards, and then pointless banter on how good or bad a card is for the game, almost always resulting in everyone agreeing with Pika or You, or nothing changing. Rarely have I seen people be converted.