Mass Driver

[ihop]

One for One?

[Manjoume Thunder]

All of these will reduce the consistency and make the deck even worse than the other FTKs.

[DARKPLANT RISING]

The question of such cards as Mass Driver and Toon Cannon Soldier is an interesting one. Historically, they have been used exclusively in OTK/FTK loops to deal infinite damage - and, indeed, their obvious inferiority to generic burn cards like Ookazi in terms of card advantage makes it difficult to conceive of acceptable uses for them. However, what must be stressed is that the OTK/FTK loops that these cards facilitate rely on infinite advantage engines like the Substitoad/Ronintoadin combo, and these infinite advantage engines are unacceptable even without the Mass Driver family; they themselves contain banworthy elements even before Mass Driver enters the picture.

 

The result is that the Mass Driver family exists in a sort of limbo: they can't be used outside of OTK/FTK loops because they suck otherwise, but the OTK/FTK loops are banworthy even without considering them, making banning them unnecessary.

 

To me, the conclusion seems straightforward: the OTK/FTK loops need not even be considered since they contain banworthy elements, so using them to argue against the legality of the Mass Driver family makes no more sense than using Dark Armed Dragon to argue against the legality of Eradicator Epidemic Virus. This renders them sucky cards, but not cards that damage the game - and they do at least have some theoretical use in a "token burn" build based on using Mass Driver or something similar to turn cards like Scapegoat into massive burns.

 

In short: they don't really help the game, but they don't hurt it either, so banning them is not needed.

How do you become able to write so genius-like sentences that make others feel like they're in front of a god?

Seriously. This gal here just said it all.

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

All of these will reduce the consistency and make the deck even worse than the other FTKs.

 

 

An FTK / OTK would still exist none-the-less. It'll just be worse. The point is that the existence of FTKs isn't good for the game regardless of how consistent or inconsistent they are. It'll just mean the Deck is less of a threat in the Meta it is in.

[El-Rrey]

Subsitoad is the one who deserves the hit!!

Ronintoadin is good with Subsitoad that's all!!

And Mass Driver became good because of Subsitoad!!

 

Hitting Subsitoad will calm the Frogs a bit!!

[Manjoume Thunder]

@JD: No one cares about inconsistent FTKs.

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

@JD: No one cares about inconsistent FTKs.

 

Of course not because they suck. Still doesn't mean they're good for the game.

[Flame Dragon]

Why should Sub go over Ronin? All Sub does is set up for the FTK/OTK. It's Ronin that really does all the work by coming back again and again. Killing Sub would only slow things down.

[Manjoume Thunder]

Sub has at least 6 OTKs. Only 1 or 2 of them involve Ronin. It also limits card design.

 

@FD: Good luck making the set up with out Substi.

[Flame Dragon]

Sub has at least 6 OTKs. Only 1 or 2 of them involve Ronin. It also limits card design.

 

@FD: Good luck making the set up with out Substi.

What are Subs other OTKs?

 

You just need a deck that will give you fast mill.

[Manjoume Thunder]

DES Frog spam. (With Scapegoat.)

Dewloren FTK (Dewloren was semi'd so it no longer works, but by banning Substi Dewloren can return to 3)

Trishula OTK (Summon Trishula 5 times using Ronin and Fishborg)

Witch Doctor of Sparta FTK

Random Synchros spam (idk how to call it. It is the same as the Trishula one, but does not need Ronin and summons other Synchros)

Mass Driver FTK (The one we are talking about)

 

Most of these are bad, but they are a proof that Substi creates random OTKs.

 

You just need a deck that will give you fast mill.

 

Good luck milling a little less than 20 frogs with out the broken toad.

[Flame Dragon]

DES Frog spam. (With Scapegoat.)

Dewloren FTK (Dewloren was semi'd so it no longer works, but by banning Substi Dewloren can return to 3)

Trishula OTK (Summon Trishula 5 times using Ronin and Fishborg)

Witch Doctor of Sparta FTK

Random Synchros spam (idk how to call it. It is the same as the Trishula one, but does not need Ronin and summons other Synchros)

Mass Driver FTK (The one we are talking about)

 

Most of these are bad, but they are a proof that Substi creates random OTKs.

 

You just need a deck that will give you fast mill.

 

Good luck milling a little less than 20 frogs with out the broken toad.

Wow, that is a lot. Yea, Sub would need to die with all of that.

 

As said, yes its slower, a lot slower tbqh, but in a good meta that isn't as much a problem. Still in thinking about it, your right that it isn't a practicle OTK.

[wiithepeople]

With all the talk of FFTK, what about the Quillbolt loop?

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

With all the talk of FFTK, what about the Quillbolt loop?

 

Quillbolt Loop doesn't work without IIW which is a Trap card and arguably banworthy as it is.

[Skyson]

So this is, what, the third FTK that Mass Driver has enabled? Fourth?

 

It's created enough FTKs that have gotten their other parts banned, you'd think maybe this would be the common factor. Like, it's silly.

 

I'm almost convinced that Mass Driver is at 3 just for the developers to casually say "Oopsies." when they release something and people keep using the exact same card to turn a relatively broken combination into a stable, get out of my face OTK. If they banned Mass Driver, the combo would still be OP but there would be nothing relatively ridiculous about it to cause it to be banned. Let it run rampant through a format or two, let it stir up so much rage before anything actually gets done about it. Use Mass Driver as the controlled variable, and let people toss stupid combos like Ronintoad and Substitoad at it to find out if Mass Driver will crank out the FTK that wrecks things. Then, they know what to ban: the cards that cause it.

 

Leaving a card at 3 to allow people to purposely police for FTKs is hilarious. >_>

[Flame Dragon]

It's created enough FTKs that have gotten their other parts banned, you'd think maybe this would be the common factor. Like, it's silly.

 

Maybe it's the other cards in the combo that make this broken. Really this isn't getting them banned, it's the other cards in the combo.

 

If they banned Mass Driver, the combo would still be OP but there would be nothing relatively ridiculous about it to cause it to be banned.

 

Um, their are other cards that can make use of these loops. Like Cannon Soldier. Yes, he's slower, but it gets the job done just as well.

 

Plus their are a few other cards like him so it comes down to banning them all or banning other parts of the combo. Since most, if not all, have other broken parts (such as Faultroll in his loop) that should be banned before these and banning them fixes the problem, these have no need to be banned.

[Canadian]

Why not just ban the sources of the OTK instead of banning every card that can do the same thing. Thats like leaving Cat @3 and just banning every Beast lvl 3 or lower Tuner... (Don't go off about that statement, it's my example).

 

Really guys, banning Mass Driver IMO wouldn't do too much and it's probably not gonna happen.

 

Also, DSF is a totally different situation for anybody wanting to compare the two.

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

So this is, what, the third FTK that Mass Driver has enabled? Fourth?

 

It's created enough FTKs that have gotten their other parts banned, you'd think maybe this would be the common factor. Like, it's silly.

 

I'm almost convinced that Mass Driver is at 3 just for the developers to casually say "Oopsies." when they release something and people keep using the exact same card to turn a relatively broken combination into a stable, get out of my face OTK. If they banned Mass Driver, the combo would still be OP but there would be nothing relatively ridiculous about it to cause it to be banned. Let it run rampant through a format or two, let it stir up so much rage before anything actually gets done about it. Use Mass Driver as the controlled variable, and let people toss stupid combos like Ronintoad and Substitoad at it to find out if Mass Driver will crank out the FTK that wrecks things. Then, they know what to ban: the cards that cause it.

 

Leaving a card at 3 to allow people to purposely police for FTKs is hilarious. >_>

 

Well there's the GigaDriver FTK (inconsistent and Raptinus is arguably banworthy but I think it shouldn't be since it has a valid use outside of OTKs and FTKs), Dewloren FTK (dead with Dewloren Semi-Limited), Dark Magician of Chaos FTK (dead with DMoC banned and was first severely hurt with Dimension Fusion Limited and pretty much dead with it banned and then it had to rely on the unreliable Dimensional Distortion). Yeah about 4 maybe 5. These are the ones I know from the top of my head. Still the banworthiness of other cards involved with Mass Driver FTKs and OTKs is questionable even without factoring Mass Driver. The GigaDriver OTK has Raptinus which is questionable but it does allow Gemini's to become more playable outside of having OTK strategies and the OTK itself is rather inconsistent and FTKing is even more unlikely, Semi Limiting Dewloren is enough to kill the Dewloren FTK but banning Substitoad will allow that to return to 3 without problems, in the DMoC FTK, Dimension Fusion is essentially a 1-card OTK as long as you have monsters totalling 8000 ATK removed from play so that is banworthy, DMoC is a beatstick that can also fetch back Spells when it's Summoned and that is banworthy. Pretty much / if not all the OTKs and FTKs involving Mass Driver have other components that are banworthy themselves. Mass Driver itself is trash but it could have a valid use in some sort of Goat or Token Burn or something but aside from that, it is useless outside of OTKs and FTKs.

 

Outside of the Frog FTK, Ronintoadin itself is a balanced Treeborn Frog. Substitoad gives it the fuel to continuously come back and therefore allows for a broken FTK loop. Even outside of the FTK, Substitoad pretty much makes Ronintoadin into a second Treeborn Frog that doesn't care if there is another Treeborn Frog on the field for Frogonarchs. Also, Treeborn Frog itself is banworthy so go figure. The Substitoad must die.

[wiithepeople]

Quillbolt Loop doesn't work without IIW which is a Trap card and arguably banworthy as it is.

 

 

Konami would NEVER ban IIW. It keeps many decks like SD/AM and Inca alive, not to mention it also kills Flamvells.

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

Konami would NEVER ban IIW. It keeps many decks like SD/AM and Inca alive, not to mention it also kills Flamvells.

 

Of course they won't because it isn't threatening enough.

[CrabHelmet]

While I'd agree with Crab in a perfect world where lists are quickly updated, they aren't. If a loop might hurt the meta game for a whole 6 months because of Mass Driver - entirely possible - and be much less effective without it, then I'd rather have had Mass Driver banned since the start of the format. As long as we wait 6 months for a list, leaving Mass Driver to make these OTKs/FTKs possible, even if it isn't the most banworthy part of the combo, seems foolish, so I'd have it banned under the current system.

 

If we're assuming that the banlist can only be updated once every six months, then we're assuming that this is Konami's banlist rather than one of ours. As such, if we're talking about what should be done by Konami, we should also feel free to say that Konami should not print cards like Substitoad and Faultroll - or, at the very least, Konami should pre-emptively update its banlist before the problematic cards are even printed.

 

You can't have it both ways; you can't restrict the list updates to Konami's schedule and then act like their content would be sabotaged by Konami's stupidity. After all, we already know Konami is stupid; our purpose is to see what ought to be done were Konami not so stupid.