Tentacruel Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'm kind of sick of hearing people rant about this when they're totally in the dark about what it actually is. Here, let me copy and paste the actual amendment. [quote][b]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;[/b] or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/quote] The keywords here are respecting and prohibiting. In other words, the law cannot touch religion itself, yet many people claim that religion existing anywhere out in the open or in places such as school violates this amendment. It does not. Also, the phrase "under god" in the pledge of allegiance has been a topic of debate, and certainly seems like it would be something that would violate this law, but I digress. The government cannot make any ruling on religion, unless it is not a direct ruling, and is the subject of other laws that happen to involve parties that are associated with religion. So what's your opinion YCM? Please remember that posting "durh, religun failz" is not an argument. Directly attacking me is also not an argument, as I posted little to no opinionated information in this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 The phrase separation of church and state comes from Jefferson's written explanation of this amendment's meaning. It isn't literally written in the constitution, but if you want to talk about "the founders intentions", that's as good as it gets. The pledge of allegiance has not been taken to court, so it is unknown how the supreme court would rule that issue. Them doing so would certainly do a lot to clear up the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I agree. Also, in my opinion, the "in God we trust," printed on our currency is much less of an infringement than the Pledge of Allegiance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydra of Ages Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 [quote name='ADHD-Guitar' timestamp='1296606896' post='4979905'] The keywords here are respecting and prohibiting. In other words, the law cannot touch religion itself, yet many people claim that religion existing anywhere out in the open or i[b]n places such as school [/b]violates this amendment. It does not. Also, the phrase "under god" in the pledge of allegiance has been a topic of debate, and certainly seems like it would be something that would violate this law, but I digress. [/quote] If the school happens to be public, receives federal funding and is a government institution, making concessions towards a specific religion would indeed violate it. Religion simply existing among the individuals involved would be fine, so long as it's not embedded within the actual curriculum itself- not to say children shouldn't learn about different religions, but they shouldn't be given biased information. In any case, I think this is likely the most important Amercian amendment, or close to it if not. By removing religious justification as a basis for legal discrimination, they make it possible to have an equal society- which, of course, the USA strives to be. The fact the protections it offers are extended to ALL religions just reinforces that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 [i]little to no opinionated information[/i] From past debates (and almost any post of yours in Debates), it is quite obvious what your stance is. Don't bother saying you didn't post opinionated information when the lot of us already have a decent idea where you stand on such a topic. "under God" was added to the pledge after it was originally created, to my knowledge. This means that some religious organization got enough supporters to change the pledge on the basis that this was a Christian nation. Also, the Seperation of the Church and the State isn't directly written in the Consitution, so you shouldn't have quoted the Amendment. It was created after, saying that the USA was not founded on the Christian religion or any other religion. And it had other "clauses" to it, as well. I'm fine with "god" being on our currency and in our pledge, but I do not understand why the "g" should be capitalized. I'm fairly certain that "IN GOD WE TRUST" is written in all caps so one cannot tell whether it is god or God, but most people say the lyrics of our pledge include "God" as opposed to "god", and I've already gone over the difference in thousands of posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Revan of the Sith Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I dont like the Seperation but thats just me... As for "Under God" I believe that is more of a "The god within you" statement.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydra of Ages Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 [quote name='Halubaris Maphotika' timestamp='1296677627' post='4982539'] I dont like the Seperation but thats just me... [/quote] Care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 From your other posts and from even primitive deduction it is easy to see you are biased and clearly in favour of the church being allowed to have power in the classroom. I'm sorry to tell you, but that's brainwashing. Young children are easily influenced by authority figures, and implanting your twisted, malevolent ideologies into their innocent little minds is an abuse of trust and an abuse of children. Children should be taught about all arguments regarding religion from a very young age. They should be taught about how Atheism and Anti-Theism argue against religion and how religious authorities argue against them. They should be taught that persecution does not make you virtuous, that every person has a right to freedom of thought and above all, to question everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I think you guys are assuming ADHD's stance. As for the original topic, it's becoming less and less relevant as religion gives in to reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 [quote name='Hydra of Legend' timestamp='1296669601' post='4982068'] If the school happens to be public, receives federal funding and is a government institution, making concessions towards a specific religion would indeed violate it. Religion simply existing among the individuals involved would be fine, so long as it's not embedded within the actual curriculum itself- not to say children shouldn't learn about different religions, but they shouldn't be given biased information. In any case, I think this is likely the most important Amercian amendment, or close to it if not. By removing religious justification as a basis for legal discrimination, they make it possible to have an equal society- which, of course, the USA strives to be. The fact the protections it offers are extended to ALL religions just reinforces that. [/quote] I couldn't agree more. That's just my problem, people seem to b**** about "religion existing among the individuals involved," as you put it. For instance, prayer in schools is something that obviously shouldn't be a part of any class or school policy, but if a few religious students want to pray quietly amongst themselves before eating, why the hell shouldn't they be allowed to? For this example, to avoid certain unfortunate implications, let us assume the students are Muslims. [quote name='Dark' timestamp='1296672706' post='4982272'] [i]little to no opinionated information[/i] From past debates (and almost any post of yours in Debates), it is quite obvious what your stance is. Don't bother saying you didn't post opinionated information when the lot of us already have a decent idea where you stand on such a topic. "under God" was added to the pledge after it was originally created, to my knowledge. This means that some religious organization got enough supporters to change the pledge on the basis that this was a Christian nation. Also, the Seperation of the Church and the State isn't directly written in the Consitution, so you shouldn't have quoted the Amendment. It was created after, saying that the USA was not founded on the Christian religion or any other religion. And it had other "clauses" to it, as well. I'm fine with "god" being on our currency and in our pledge, but I do not understand why the "g" should be capitalized. I'm fairly certain that "IN GOD WE TRUST" is written in all caps so one cannot tell whether it is god or God, but most people say the lyrics of our pledge include "God" as opposed to "god", and I've already gone over the difference in thousands of posts. [/quote] First of all, saying, "In god we trust," would be incorrect grammar. I don't see why it shouldn't merely be taken out altogether. You say you know where I stand, yet you continue to accuse me of believing in religious supremacy. [quote name='Mikhail Tal' timestamp='1296683835' post='4982856'] From your other posts and from even primitive deduction it is easy to see you are biased and clearly in favour of the church being allowed to have power in the classroom. I'm sorry to tell you, but that's brainwashing. Young children are easily influenced by authority figures, and implanting your twisted, malevolent ideologies into their innocent little minds is an abuse of trust and an abuse of children. Children should be taught about all arguments regarding religion from a very young age. They should be taught about how Atheism and Anti-Theism argue against religion and how religious authorities argue against them. They should be taught that persecution does not make you virtuous, that every person has a right to freedom of thought and above all, to question everything. [/quote] All your angsty bitching aside, I believe that people should not be taught that persecution is a good thing. I really shouldn't have to say that, but apparently you're not intelligent enough to see that. Children should be allowed to study religion in public school as an elective, similar to how a college student might take a religious studies course. You say children should be taught to question everything, but is that really the public education system's place to do that? For the last time, keep the religion out of the school system, but let the religious to continue being religious in schools. If you cannot do that, then you are a very narrow-minded person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Only in schools that have a declared religion are religious views stifled. It's the scientific view that was stifled and still is in some areas of the Bible Belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 [i]First of all, saying, "In god we trust," would be incorrect grammar.[/i] No, it wouldn't. Saying "In god we trust" means in a god, or gods, or any divine being, we trust. Saying "In God we trust" means in a particular god, usually Yahweh, we trust. It gives it a Christian connotation, to a certain extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 [quote name='Dark' timestamp='1296688159' post='4983186'] [i]First of all, saying, "In god we trust," would be incorrect grammar.[/i] No, it wouldn't. Saying "In god we trust" means in a god, or gods, or any divine being, we trust. Saying "In God we trust" means in a particular god, usually Yahweh, we trust. It gives it a Christian connotation, to a certain extent. [/quote] But wouldn't you need to say, "In a god we trust?" I am confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Halubaris Maphotika' timestamp='1296677627' post='4982539'] I dont like the Seperation but thats just me... As for "Under God" I believe that is more of a "The god within you" statement.. [/quote] It was added by McCarthyites... that was most definitely not their intended meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='ADHD-Guitar' timestamp='1296691052' post='4983341'] But wouldn't you need to say, "In a god we trust?" I am confused. [/quote] In you I trust, In him I trust, In potatoes I trust, In god I trust, Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginko Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 1. so you're saying that its basically the government can't make restrictions on religion... such as they can't pass a law banning bhuddists from public schools. right? so if that's the case, public schools banning people praying in school is against the law itself, and therefore if i walked into my public high school and started doing some satanic ritual (lets just say i'm a satanist right now) that's a part of my satanist religion, and they kick me out of school, i could sue them and win the case because of this law. right? and 2: [quote name='Mikhail Tal' timestamp='1296683835' post='4982856'] From your other posts and from even primitive deduction it is easy to see you are biased and clearly in favour of the church being allowed to have power in the classroom. I'm sorry to tell you, but that's brainwashing. Young children are easily influenced by authority figures, and implanting your twisted, malevolent ideologies into their innocent little minds is an abuse of trust and an abuse of children. Children should be taught about all arguments regarding religion from a very young age. They should be taught about how Atheism and Anti-Theism argue against religion and how religious authorities argue against them. They should be taught that persecution does not make you virtuous, that every person has a right to freedom of thought and above all, to question everything. [/quote] in the movie supersize me, ronald mcdonald was more-well known than jesus to little kids so don't say that kids will be brainwashed by the church when its todays media that does the brainwashing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Starrk Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Booger' timestamp='1296695412' post='4983640'] 1. so you're saying that its basically the government can't make restrictions on religion... such as they can't pass a law banning bhuddists from public schools. right? so if that's the case, public schools banning people praying in school is against the law itself, and therefore if i walked into my public high school and started doing some satanic ritual (lets just say i'm a satanist right now) that's a part of my satanist religion, and they kick me out of school, i could sue them and win the case because of this law. right? and 2: in the movie supersize me, ronald mcdonald was more-well known than jesus to little kids so don't say that kids will be brainwashed by the church when its todays media that does the brainwashing [/quote] I call bullshit on number 1. Were was this Buddhist law put into effect? Also, they would kick you out of school because you could scare other school piers because some people don't worship the devil. [i]OMG WHAT? THAT'S CRAZY![/i] Next, if you were to sue the school, most of the judges presiding in the courtroom would disagree with you, along with the jury? Why? Because the church is causing people to believe Satanism is bad. However, with the separation, the jury could be biased, but who isn't on the jury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginko Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Cōyōté Stárrk' timestamp='1296695872' post='4983681'] I call bullshit on number 1. Were was this Buddhist law put into effect? Also, they would kick you out of school because you could scare other school piers because some people don't worship the devil. [i]OMG WHAT? THAT'S CRAZY![/i] Next, if you were to sue the school, most of the judges presiding in the courtroom would disagree with you, along with the jury? Why? Because the church is causing people to believe Satanism is bad. However, with the separation, the jury could be biased, but who isn't on the jury? [/quote] number one isn't a real situation. it was an implied example satanism isn't bad (go to the "is satanism bad?" debate on this forum). the CHRISTIAN church frowns upon it because satan is God's enemy. no other church or religion frowns upon it (confucisum, bhuddism, hinduism, judaism (idk about judaism)) or atleast SHOULD frown upon it because satanism is basically nega-christianity also, because of the law being debated, they would not be allowed to kick you out of school because that would be the government restricting religious belief which according to the first post (if i remember correctly) is illegal plus the case (if not already won at the local level) would be brought to the supreme court, and the courts would have to rule in favor of this satanist because, (see the first post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Dark' timestamp='1296695293' post='4983633'] In you I trust, In him I trust, In potatoes I trust, In god I trust, Amen. [/quote] But "god" is not a pronoun nor a plural form of a word. I am still confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginko Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 god is supposed to mean the diety that your religion worships (not appliccable to atheists or others who do not believe in organized religion) such as bhudda in bhuddism, the multiple gods in hinduism, and God in catholisism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydra of Ages Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Booger' timestamp='1296698593' post='4983837'] god is supposed to mean the diety that your religion worships (not appliccable to atheists or others who do not believe in organized religion) such as bhudda in bhuddism, the multiple gods in hinduism, and God in catholisism [/quote] But that doesn't work [i]at all[/i]. First of all, Buddhism 101, the Buddha is not a god in any meaning of the phrase. Buddhism specifically does not believe in any single divine entity, which is largely what separates it from Hinduism. In some ways, it doesn't qualify to be called a religion in the first place. Not only that, but Hinduism doesn't even believe in multiple gods as you think- it believes in a single divine entity that manifests itself as three main gods, and the Parthenon beneath them, as a method for us to understand its various identities. Or something like that, it's a difficult concept to get. Also, as for the last part... "God in Catholicism"- would be far better phrased as "God in the Semitic Religions"- as the God of Catholocism is the same God as all of Christianity, and the Christian God is the exact same concept as the Muslim and Jewish Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Booger' timestamp='1296695412' post='4983640'] 1. so you're saying that its basically the government can't make restrictions on religion... such as they can't pass a law banning bhuddists from public schools. right? so if that's the case, public schools banning people praying in school is against the law itself, and therefore if i walked into my public high school and started doing some satanic ritual (lets just say i'm a satanist right now) that's a part of my satanist religion, and they kick me out of school, i could sue them and win the case because of this law. right? [/quote] The issue isn't people praying in class, its whether the school should actually designate time for such a prayer. Because sure, you could do a satanic rite, but that's disrupting the class. They have a right to stop anything hindering the educational process, including free speech and religion (minors in school have limited rights). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='GenzoTheHarpist' timestamp='1296718541' post='4984408'] The issue isn't people praying in class, its whether the school should actually designate time for such a prayer. Because sure, you could do a satanic rite, but that's disrupting the class. They have a right to stop anything hindering the educational process, including free speech and religion (minors in school have limited rights). [/quote] Exactly. Jeez, it's quite a simple concept, but people don't seem to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehmani Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='ADHD-Guitar' timestamp='1296686305' post='4983065'] All your angsty bitching aside, I believe that people should not be taught that persecution is a good thing. I really shouldn't have to say that, but apparently you're not intelligent enough to see that. Children should be allowed to study religion in public school as an elective, similar to how a college student might take a religious studies course. You say children should be taught to question everything, but is that really the public education system's place to do that? For the last time, keep the religion out of the school system, but let the religious to continue being religious in schools. If you cannot do that, then you are a very narrow-minded person. [/quote] You are clearly twisting my words - I said persecution does not make you [i]virtuous[/i]. That isn't saying persecution is a good thing, that's saying that you shouldn't be seen as virtuous if your religion or your people have been persecuted (unless you perform other acts to make you virtuous, like Holocaust survivors raising money for charity). I said that children should be taught not only how religions work and what their features are, but also how those religions argue in favour of themselves (and how other religious or sceptics argue against them). This means that they have freedom to look at the positives and negatives and decide what religion is best (or if none of them are satisfactory). This would not only be an important lesson, but also an intriguing topic to write about. My post was partly a criticism of Religious Studies and how it is taught, though that's beside the point for now. In my opinion, children should be taught to question everything as it will not only allow them to find out more information, but it will also open their minds. However, I think that they should also be taught about nihilistic views of events like the Holocaust to provide a contrast. Now, you are clearly religious and relish attacking those who aren't, but you still think religion should be kept out of the school system? What a messed-up country America is. The religious should be allowed to be religious in schools (I never said I had a problem with that, did I?), but they should not be allowed to impose their beliefs on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Mikhail Tal' timestamp='1296747018' post='4984694'] Now, you are clearly religious and relish attacking those who aren't, [/quote] That doesn't mean much coming from you. [quote name='Mikhail Tal' timestamp='1296747018' post='4984694'] but you still think religion should be kept out of the school system? What a messed-up country America is. The religious should be allowed to be religious in schools (I never said I had a problem with that, did I?), but they should not be allowed to impose their beliefs on others. [/quote] I'm not sure what you mean about America being messed up. Also, I've noticed most people have a different opinion on what "imposing their beliefs" on others is. Merely stating your beliefs and why you believe them is not imposing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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