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Should the legal driving age be raised to 18?

Tentacruel

By Tentacruel
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Umbra Newbie

Umbra

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It may not be a logic that [i]you[/i] personally agree with, but everyone's not like you. I'm thankful that you disagree with that logic, and would be even more so if people did.

America is a nation well known for voluntary teen pregnancies, and giving teen mothers a chance to stand in the spotlight. At the high school I attend currently as an exchange student, (in a comparably small town of ~8000 residents and ~800 students) there are currently two girls in the senior class who have children that I know of. Extrapolation can speak for itself.

The only reason America has a legal driving age of sixteen rather than eighteen is because you have made yourself so dependent on cars. Part of the American mindset seems to be that if you don't have a car, you're not gonna get far - something that practically any European country can prove wrong. I will take Sweden as an example; my hometown is about 14mi. from Stockholm, and nonetheless one can get there without a car. Many people do. There's the commuter train, of course, but it's also possible to walk the entire way without ever stepping off a path specifically made for walking and/or biking. Even in the town itself, it's far more unusual to see kids drive to school than using alternative means (buses, walking, etc.), which I personally believe is better for not only them, but also the community.

You assume that a person who receives their license at 18 has absolutely no driving experience. To quote yourself, "What kind of logic is that?" I don't know how extensive your license test is, but in Sweden you're expected to practice at least for a few months before even attempting to get your license. That includes driving in public, driving on freeways, and driving on specifically prepared ranges mimicking tough weather conditions. I consider such experience definitely enough for a person to be considered a good driver.

You also assume that a person, an [i]American[/i], who goes to college will never drive anywhere. I will let the invalidity of that statement speak for itself.

Responsibility, perhaps, but I consider that responsibility to be more than the average sixteen-year-old can or should have to handle. I spoke with a former sheriff of town a few months back, and he explicitly said that most car accidents he saw involved people under eighteen.
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Dark Newbie

Dark

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[i]The only reason America has a legal driving age of sixteen rather than eighteen is because you have made yourself so dependent on cars.[/i]

You are blatantly assuming that being dependant on cars is a bad thing. I won't say that America has an undeveloped public transportation system, because we all know how untrue that is, but our dependancy on cars stems from the fact that not everyone here has a job that is a walkable distance away like in New York City. Unless you are in an abnormally huge city like New York or Boston, cars are absolutely necessary. Maybe the dependancy on cars is less in Europe, where public transportation is possibly one of the only options for cheap, long-distance travel. Fine. But dependancy on cars isn't a bad thing whatsoever, it is simply different from a system you are used to.

Furthermore, you mentioned that people talk a commuter train to go fourteen miles. Okay, but I live in a country where almost everyone has been brought up driving in cars and not depending on irregular patterns of public transport. Are we a bit spoiled in that regard? Sure, why not? That doesn't mean we are lazy or not hard-working; we simply like using cars because they provide a fast, [i]reliable[/i] way to get places. Not everyone wants to use public transportation.

[i]but in Sweden you're expected to practice at least for a few months[/i]

Hold your horses, buddy. I think you are misinterpreting what this thread is about. This thread isn't about the legal age to get a [b]license[/b]. This thread is talking about the legal age to drive, period, meaning a provisional license, or a permit. In Sweden, how can you practice without an okay from the government to drive at all? No one is talking about making the license age eighteen (since, in most states, it is already eighteen). We are talking about making the driving age eighteen, which is preposterous. I don't care if you are eighteen, sixteen, or twelve, the fact of the matter is that you would have already gone through your permit and your provisional license before you get an actual license. Everyone is equally prepared, despite the age gap. Which is why someone in Sweden getting their license at 21 (who has gone through extensive training) and someone in the US getting their license at 18 (having gone through the previous two stages of driving) would have the exact same experience, the exact same knowledge, and the exact same skill. I'd much rather have students get their permit at 16 so that they can have two years of driving before they get their license.

[i]You also assume that a person, an American, who goes to college will never drive anywhere.[/i]

The fact of the matter is, if you are dorming at an out-of-state college, you [b]do not[/b] bring a car, and in some cases, you aren't even allowed to bring a car. If you at a college for four years, and you are dorming each year (or even living in on-campus housing), chances are everything is walking distance; all of your classes, all of your restaurants, all of the facilities. It is stupid to think that a majority of college students drive or even have cars at college, when the exact opposite is true. I'm not saying people don't commute, but the majorty of first and second year college students don't have cars with them at college, and don't use cars during their first few years in college.

[i]explicitly said that most car accidents he saw involved people under eighteen[/i]

And if the license age was then twenty-one, I can assure you that most car accidents would involve people under twenty-one.

That argument is retarded when you think about it carefully. If the license age is forty-five, let's say, it is obvious that people forty-three and forty-four have the least experience out of all drivers on the road, and therefore will be involve in statistically the most accidents. So that is not an argument for increasing the age to twenty-one, because I can just say that most accidents happen with twenty-year-olds, and we can infinitely increase the driving age.

I am not telling Europe to decrease their driving age, nor do I give a damn what you guys do. But eighteen is the correct license age for America, and sixteen is the correct driving age for America, so anyone telling me otherwise, especially with such faulty arguments, is dead wrong.
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Umbra Newbie

Umbra

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Then yes, I misunderstood. I can accept a driving age at 16 with a provisional license. Thanks for the clarification.

(Also, for a clarification of my own: A person in Sweden would start their training at 16, and be able to get a license by the time they turn 18. I'm not entirely sure about this, but I believe that until then they are required to have someone else, with a license, in the car with them.)

You are assuming that being dependent on cars is a good thing. Being practically forced to travel by your own means and support your own vehicle entirely may be appealing to the Land Of The Free, but it doesn't make sense to me. The commuter trains - and buses, for that matter - are far from irregular, and actually quite reliable unless the winter is too severe. Not everyone here has a job that's a walkable distance away, but we still have alternate means of transportation.

I like to have options, but America has thrown those options aside to force their people to drive.

Also, advice: Directly insulting the opinions of your opponent in a debate is just plain disrespectful. Sure, you may disagree with what I say, but calling my arguments "retarded"? (Frankly, I'm not sure what you mean.)
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Icy Newbie

Icy

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[quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1299216446' post='5049954']
I like to have options, but America has thrown those options aside to force their people to drive.
[/quote]

It doesn't? As Dark said, for some people driving is somewhat preferred because of the sheer distance and traffic. And then bus routes seldom cover more than the main streets or detour to the government buildings. We have just as many options as far as mass transit goes as the rest of the world (with the exception of Hawaii where Trains are outlawed for the most part, and traveling underground is dangerous). Just they really aren't handy for a variety of reasons.
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Dark Newbie

Dark

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[i]Also, for a clarification of my own: A person in Sweden would start their training at 16, and be able to get a license by the time they turn 18. I'm not entirely sure about this, but I believe that until then they are required to have someone else, with a license, in the car with them.[/i]

A permit requires you to have someone eighteen or older in the car with you, a provisional license means you cannot drive out of state and between the hours of midnight and 6 am (or something close to that), and a license at eighteen gives you unrestricted driving rights. We don't expect people to be perfect drivers at sixteen, which is why America has taken such good precautions to limit the amount of pre-license accidents and get the most experience out of a person before they go to college. But still, accidents involving newbies still [b]inevitably[/b] happen, much like any other country.

[i]I like to have options, but America has thrown those options aside to force their people to drive.[/i]

In New York City, where the public transport reaches all the far corners of the city, very few people actually use cars. Icy almost completely covered what I was going to say in response to that. In Boston the situation isn't as good as New York City, but we still have a lot of people walking or biking or subway-ing to work, and America doesn't force anyone to drive unless your place of work is explicity in another state or really far away. And even then, my uncle who lives in New Jersey and works in New York drives to the train station every day and takes a train to New York, as to save fuel and make use of our awesome public transportation.

[i]but calling my arguments "retarded"[/i]

I called your argument that many teenagers get into accidents [i]faulty[/i], not retarded.
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Dark Newbie

Dark

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[quote name='Nu.' timestamp='1299281944' post='5051300']
Driving age should be lowered to 12.
[/quote]

Drinking age should be lowered to negative six months (as in, three months into a pregnancy).

Not a bad idea, but the logistical problem is trying to force-"feed" the baby alcohol.
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Clair Newbie

Clair

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[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1299289942' post='5051535']
Drinking age should be lowered to negative six months (as in, three months into a pregnancy).
[/quote]

FETUS RAAAACERS

...
I already can drive, so the debate doesn't affect me personally.
However, judging by the way some classmates at school drive, it wouldn't hurt to raise the age.
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Dark Newbie

Dark

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[quote name='GenzoTheHarpist' timestamp='1299442142' post='5056052']
Raise it to 18... fits international standards better.
[/quote]

You're talking to the country who refuses to convert to metric even though, for everything except speed and weight, metric is so much cooler.

SCREW INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS!
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MarbleZone Newbie

MarbleZone

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[quote name='Lance Corporal Atlas' timestamp='1299501318' post='5057686']
Metric is the more efficient system, not the cooler one.
[/quote]

A Royale with cheese is much cooler than a Quarter Pounder, mind.

OT: over here, the driving age is 18, and I agree with that. It's not exactly the same thing to be handed a car at 16 or 18, and while it's fairly obvious that, in many cases, people are responsible enough at 16, there are several other instances in which they aren't.
Of course, when debating over a 2-year gap when individual differences are so obvious (concerning maturity), both sides will always find arguments.

I'm more comfortable with having an 18-year-old on the wheel rather than a 16-year-old, and it's a relatively safer bet that somebody at 18 will drive more responsibly, but if there isn't a frankly marked difference between the two groups concerning accident and mortality rates (assuming such studies have been made), then changing that law really isn't a priority in my perspective.
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'tyleR Newbie

'tyleR

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[quote name='MarbleZone' timestamp='1299508572' post='5057809']
A Royale with cheese is much cooler than a Quarter Pounder, mind.
[/quote]

Pulp Fiction reference, ftw.

Dark & Josh have pretty much said all that needs to be said.

Seriously, the age and maturity level of a person doesn't affect their natural ability to drive. It has to do with the amount of practice they have. :// I get so f***ing mad when I'm driving and someone just barely if front of me switches into my lane without using a turn signal. Usually, it's someone older. I have seen very few young drivers who neglect turn signals and such. Of course, that's personal experience only. It also may be just because of where I live.

Still, 18 driving age? No.
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Dark Newbie

Dark

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[quote name='Lance Corporal Atlas' timestamp='1299501318' post='5057686']
Metric is the more efficient system, not the cooler one.
[/quote]

That was implied, especially since all but 300 million of the world's inhabitants use metric, so we are kind of taking a stupid offshoot route.

But not only is metric more efficient, many metric measurements (except a few) even [b]sound cooler[/b] than American measurements?

Centimeter? Hell yeah! Inch? Ew.

Then again...

Pound? Cool! Kilogram? Meh.
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Nu. Newbie

Nu.

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[quote name='Tom.' timestamp='1299619460' post='5060907']
16: Start your driving training or whatfuckingever it's called.
18: You're allowed to get your licence.
[/quote]

17: Start your driving training --> Learn to drive --> Get licence --> ??? --> Profit

BRITAIN. F***YEAH.
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~/Coolio Prime\~ Newbie

~/Coolio Prime\~

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[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1299542395' post='5059026']
That was implied, especially since all but 300 million of the world's inhabitants use metric, so we are kind of taking a stupid offshoot route.

But not only is metric more efficient, many metric measurements (except a few) even [b]sound cooler[/b] than American measurements?

Centimeter? Hell yeah! Inch? Ew.

Then again...

Pound? Cool! Kilogram? Meh.
[/quote]
I was debating the usability, but it's clear that you're unaware of the stories behind the measurements used.
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