Tic Tac Toe

[Bob the Rainicorn]

[IMG]http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/t/tic_tac_toe-13746.png[/IMG]
I'm fairly certain many have played this game, where both players fill the board with symbols in order to get their symbol, 3 in a row. Also, I'm fairly certain most games end up like this:
[IMG]http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb478/Red_W_Mage/TicTacToe-1.png[/IMG]
ideally, Tic Tac Toe usually ends in a draw, with neither player winning.

The reason for this is when, if both players try to stop the other player from winning, they cancel each other out with their one move.

In the above example, the first 2 turns weren't coordinated, just putting symbols on the board. By the 3rd move, however, the opportunity for the “X” to win arises if they are not interrupted during the next turn, since they have 2 spots available. Therefore, “O” comes in between, thus defeating “X”'s chance. now, “O” has 2 in a row, so “X” must interrupt “O”. When done, “O” realizes it has only opportunity to possibly win, which is to select a position vertically. “X” intercepts this move, and “O” intercepts “X”'s last attempt of victory. with one spot left, the game is destined to draw as all possible ways to get 3 in a row have been blocked.

In all situations in Tic Tac Toe, if both players are at maximum skill level, the game always ends in a tie. Therefore, the “good” tic tac toe player is someone who either wins, or draws. This is the “good player”, who is perfect and does not misplay and makes every play reach the fullest potential.

In yugioh we define “good” players, but they too make misplays. Therefore, they are not actual good players. But, we do have this concept of “the good player”, she does exist in thought. But, clearly I have never met a player, or even heard of one, who does not misplay and always makes the correct plays. The reasons for this is most likely because we are destined for human judgment errors, but also because we are not omniscient. We cannot tell what we will draw, what the opponent has, and all the variables (what the opponent has face down, what comes up next in my draw, what the opponent will draw, what will happen when I shuffle, etc.) filled in so that you can mathmatically/logically determine the best course of action.

As mentioned previously, we have some notion of who the best player is, because she exists in thought. In a very platonic view, we humans are only imitations of the “good player”, and thus are destined for fallacy. When these players teach other players, they become imitations of an imperfect imitation of the good player, and thus are distanced even further, so that down the line, players become less and less competent. Therefore, to become a good player, we must ignore experience, and use reason to bypass the long line of copies and directly imitate the “good player”
Because we are not omniscient like the “good player”, we must use probability, and reason to make actions similar to the “good player”. For example, in a meta where everyone plays the same build for Agents, you will know what your opponent will most likely do for an opening move, and if they don't make an opening move, you know they don't have anything to do, unless they use something like Tragoedia. When someone does something different against the probability ratio, the other player cannot determine what you are doing, and thus are thrown into mental chaos. This is how you can actually turn a player who is close to good, and distance them.

Therefore, the key to success in yugioh for the individual, skill wise, is to destroy your opponent's reason and their idea of what is probable.

Tl;dr
I like Plato
I dethrone Nauske
The way to be as close to good as possible is to use reason

And clearly, the funnest part of yugioh is to watch someone's rational mind be torn apart. This is what makes fun decks fun

[Agro]

It's a nice idea. But they don't compare. There is too much luck involved in Yu-Gi-Oh! to be able to compare it to a game based solely on logic.

[Bob the Rainicorn]

that's why I said the true good player is omniscient, so that the luck factor of the game does not matter. The reason why humans are subjected to never being truly good is because we do not know all variables of the game, therefore cannot make the best decisions.

[evilfusion]

So this topic essentially says that "real" good players do not exist because we're all human and therefore are doomed to make mistakes at some point? That the definition of good players are not the competent players, but the impossible standard that surpasses luck?

This topic makes no sense.

[Legend Zero]

All I got was that nobody is perfect and play smart/using common sense. Not sure if that's the point, but w/e.

[Bob the Rainicorn]

Essentially thats what it is, but its a definitive and rational answer to the question of what makes a good player in skill. Obviously, it does not answer the question of what makes the best deck, which I will do later.

Also, most of this is based on Plato's concept of the World of the Forms.

[byak]

tictactoe is not yugioh discussion you scrub

[Bob the Rainicorn]

/ok

[evilfusion]

I just don't see what point, if any, you're trying to make. What is there to discuss? That Yu-Gi-Oh players are imperfect and will never reach Yusei-level skill?

[Bob the Rainicorn]

essentially, my point is that good players don't exist in the physical realm.

The practical point of this is finding out where the idea of skill comes from, and also that you can destroy other peoples skill level by destroying their reason.

Ever noticed how players like Jeff Jones can win simply because they are intimidating? That would be because they scare the opponent, and when you are scared, your thoughts tend to become reptilian, and therefore cannot be rational or use reason.

[Dr. Cakey]

tl;dr there are no good poker players.

[evilfusion]

Then you simply used a terrible analogy. Tic Tac Toe has a finite number of game states, with no element of luck. Yu-Gi-Oh has essentially infinite game states, luck being a major factor, and draws are extremely difficult to create under normal circumstances. Someone has to win, someone has to lose.

Good players exist. Perfect players do not.

[Bob the Rainicorn]

Good players are usually those with a lot of experience then. That way, they can determine probability, and make reasonable conclusions. When a new element is introduced that they do not expect, they are suddenly torn from good to bad in a matter of seconds, thereby making the concept of "good player" very situational. This is also why players who were previously good at the game and come back are usually bad.

Also, Tic Tac Toe was only to demonstrate the existence of "best moves".

[Airride]

@OP: Tic Tac No.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

Topic's Point: Everybody is a scrub.

[Bob the Rainicorn]

Yes, Everyone is a scrub.

[quote name='Dr%2E%20Cakey%26amp%3B%23045%3Bchan' timestamp='1318716916' post='5581687']
tl;dr there are no good poker players.
[/quote]

the closest to "good" a poker player can get is when they are accurate in their guessing, and also interaction with other players to throw off their reason.

[BehindTheMask]

Skill definitely exists in yugioh.

I was playing at my locals, and it was the finals. It was game three, and it was my turn. I knew my opponent would go off next turn, but I had mirror force. I checked his grave, and Heavy storm was gone. His only out to Mirror Force was MST. I knew that if he had it, I would lose, so I decided that I needed him to MST my dead Pot of Avarice. I confidently set my Pot of Avarice, and then "debated" to play Mirror Force. I checked his grave again, and said out loud "Oh man, Storm is gone." Then I with less confidence had set my Mirror Force, and bluffed that I really didnt want to play the card.

Sure enough, he has the MST and goes right for the Avarice. He over extends and goes into 3 Utopia + Zenmaister thanks to Ultimate Offering + Gadgets. He swings and announces game. I flip mirror force for the blow out and he's like "WOW I thought that was a bluff. Why wouldnt you play that first?" I am able to win because I was able to bluff.

My point is this, a "good" player has and utlilizes a set of skills like Bluffing, Knowledge of the Game, Making Reads, etc. The better players are better able to utilize these skill sets to their advantage. And yes, a good player wins a fair amount of time, but I have seen bad players top deck 1 outs and win over skilled players.

[CDDRodrigo]

Then I wonder why BehindTheMask is underrated.

Owait

YCM

[-Lightray Daedalus-]

[quote name='Konoe A. Mercury' timestamp='1318718218' post='5581711']
Then I wonder why BehindTheMask is underrated.

Owait

YCM
[/quote]

And still believe that no one remember that he made one of the best GB guides in this site when he/she barely had any posts...XD

OT: I don't care about it really...if it is true that no good player exist then better that means that I still have hopes to beat people with my really undermeta deck *Points to sig*

[Bob the Rainicorn]

[quote name='BehindTheMask' timestamp='1318718110' post='5581709']
Skill definitely exists in yugioh.

I was playing at my locals, and it was the finals. It was game three, and it was my turn. I knew my opponent would go off next turn, but I had mirror force. I checked his grave, and Heavy storm was gone. His only out to Mirror Force was MST. I knew that if he had it, I would lose, so I decided that I needed him to MST my dead Pot of Avarice. I confidently set my Pot of Avarice, and then "debated" to play Mirror Force. I checked his grave again, and said out loud "Oh man, Storm is gone." Then I with less confidence had set my Mirror Force, and bluffed that I really didnt want to play the card.

Sure enough, he has the MST and goes right for the Avarice. He over extends and goes into 3 Utopia + Zenmaister thanks to Ultimate Offering + Gadgets. He swings and announces game. I flip mirror force for the blow out and he's like "WOW I thought that was a bluff. Why wouldnt you play that first?" I am able to win because I was able to bluff.

My point is this, a "good" player has and utlilizes a set of skills like Bluffing, Knowledge of the Game, Making Reads, etc. The better players are better able to utilize these skill sets to their advantage. And yes, a good player wins a fair amount of time, but I have seen bad players top deck 1 outs and win over skilled players.
[/quote]

Clearly defining my point that the closest you can get to the form of the good player is through using reason and probability, and that to destroy your opponents ability to be rational/get rid of reason is how to play efficiently.This is only about skill, which means what is the best you can do with the resources you have. When both players are at maximum reasoning potential, the outcome is definite. When a bad player top decks the nuts, if they don't play it they won't win, but common sense says to use it, so they do. If they don't have the rational mind to come up with the conclusion that "DERP REKINDLING VS. OPPONENT WITH NO FIELD/HAND = GAME", they won't win. It does not mean you did not play to the fullest potential, just that by nature of variables they are to win in "the perfect game".

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='Bob the Rainicorn' timestamp='1318717566' post='5581695']
Yes, Everyone is a scrub.



the closest to "good" a poker player can get is when they are accurate in their guessing, and also interaction with other players to throw off their reason.
[/quote]
Okay, let's get something out of the way:

The definition of the word "good" is not "unable to lose". The definition of "[i]perfect[/i]" is not "unable to lose".

This is just one of the many flaws in your argument. The example of Tic Tac Toe is also poor, both because Tic Tac Toe has, after the first few essentially random turns, only one possible move for each player, and because it has no concealed information. If Tic Tac Toe had, say, two or three times as many spaces, "fog of war", and the potential for different methods of play i.e. playing on two spaces at once, or having the ability to destroy opposing X's. But if this keeps up, it stops being Tic Tac Toe and starts being [i]Starcraft[/i].

[Canadian]

One example that supports this hypothesis would be how decks like gravekeepers and TGs were able to take YCSs. This was because nobody knew how to play against them and all their logic and reasoning went out the window. Some players dont even know certain cards existed like horn of the phantom beast.

Though, the suprise factor is only a factor, it will not always win you games. When six sams had triple gateway it didnt matter how good you were or if you knew what your opponent had, what mattered was that if they could flood the field before you had a chance to set up some defense or flood it yourself.

I think a good yugioh player is one who is able to adjust accordingly to the format by making innoative deck choices which compensate for new cards/strategies/rulings. But most importantly a good yugioh player must be able to make reads an know when to go off or play defensively. This skill can only be aquired through lots of playing and testing, but once mastered, a person will generally be able to make the most of a situation based on their cards and the gamestate.

[Bob the Rainicorn]

[QUOTE]Okay, let's get something out of the way:

The definition of the word "good" is not "unable to lose". The definition of "perfect" is not "unable to lose".

This is just one of the many flaws in your argument. The example of Tic Tac Toe is also poor, both because Tic Tac Toe has, after the first few essentially random turns, only one possible move for each player, and because it has no concealed information. If Tic Tac Toe had, say, two or three times as many spaces, "fog of war", and the potential for different methods of play i.e. playing on two spaces at once, or having the ability to destroy opposing X's. But if this keeps up, it stops being Tic Tac Toe and starts being Starcraft. [/QUOTE]

My definition of good in this sense has never been "unable to lose". It is simply that you make all the correct choices, and that if both players make the correct choices, they reach "perfect game", which does have a definitive win or loss for one of the players.
Sadly, language is a very poor way to communicate information, its one of the reasons why truth cannot be spread efficiently.
Yes, indeed, in Tic Tac Toe perfect game can be achieved almost all the time, but that is because the need to know variables only occurs after the first few random turns. You are omniscient when you play Tic Tac Toe. However, I suppose you can say then, that there is the good player in tic tac toe. This could be true since both players are omniscient, unlike in yugioh where they are not, however by human nature we are destined to make a fluke, thus stripping us the title of "good player".

And, I am supposing that you mean to say that Tic Tac Toe is also a bad argument because the contradiction of the presence of omniscient players. This could be the case, but I'm only defining the concept of "perfect game".

In all honesty, the best argument against me would be Chess. in Chess, all players know the conditions and variables, except for intentions. I do not know what the perfect game for Chess would be, but it would probably have to do a lot when the opportunity arises that your play will determine the outcome of the game, in correlation with the actions the opponent will make.

[quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1318719228' post='5581731']
One example that supports this hypothesis would be how decks like gravekeepers and TGs were able to take YCSs. This was because nobody knew how to play against them and all their logic and reasoning went out the window. Some players dont even know certain cards existed like horn of the phantom beast.

Though, the suprise factor is only a factor, it will not always win you games. When six sams had triple gateway it didnt matter how good you were or if you knew what your opponent had, what mattered was that if they could flood the field before you had a chance to set up some defense or flood it yourself.

I think a good yugioh player is one who is able to adjust accordingly to the format by making innoative deck choices which compensate for new cards/strategies/rulings. But most importantly a good yugioh player must be able to make reads an know when to go off or play defensively. This skill can only be aquired through lots of playing and testing, but once mastered, a person will generally be able to make the most of a situation based on their cards and the gamestate.
[/quote]

Yes yes, But as I hope that I'm making clear, this article is only about the good player in regards to gameplay skill. the ability to make good decks is slightly linked here, in that you use reason based on probability.And by the way, making reads is essentially "using reason based on probability". But, I'm glad that you understood what I meant here.

[-Lightray Daedalus-]

We Know that the player that goes with this definition of good player is

[img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100210144706/yugioh/images/thumb/4/47/Andore.jpg/743px-Andore.jpg[/img]

[Solemn Silver]

Am I the only one thinking OP is ser?