U wanna destroy it? U sure? Aw well, then you can have it. Oh yea, and you have to feed it...

[Guest Relius Clover]

o.0 forgot that scrap dragon exists. Should I change it to "opponent's card effect" or would that be making it lame? Personally, I think that if somebody makes a nice combo with scrap dragon then kudos to them and let them do it.

 

I think it hurts wind-ups more than you are accounting for. They usually MST out the arse before they loop. Yea, the problem with inzektors is they will just proceed to kill it a second time. Maybe it should banish the card that would have destroyed it or something. And then I should change it to "opponent's card effect." IDK.

Everything you've proposed is "The Huge Revolution is Over" + token ._.

 

And I meant they would kill it with their Scrap Dragon...

 

But there's nothing really wrong with the card, as three existing cards cover it better =/

[Rest in Piss YCMaker]

The day when I agree with ragnarok is the day when hell freezes. Guess what temperature hell is at now? No, really, the card is pretty damn near broken because the only removal that could remove this is mass removal cards (ie Dark Hole, TT, BRD etc. etc.), one of which is limited, second semi'd next format, and the third could spring another one of these.

 

So basically, don't call other peoples posts wrong without saying why their post is in fact, false.

 

 

He's wrong saying Drop Off is similar is what I meant. I should have pointed that out >.<

[Sander]

But there's nothing really wrong with the card, as three existing cards cover it better =/

 

How do they cover effect destruction negation better when this is easier to activate than the 3 cards that you've listed?

[Guest Yuzuru Otonashi]

How do they cover effect destruction negation better when this is easier to activate than the 3 cards that you've listed?

This only negates MST or whatever if it's specifically chosen, and blind MSTing is generally bad.

 

It can negate storm, but I'd rather run starlight given it's a +1 that gives me a beater. I see no reason this is better than Starlight, even if it's "Easier to activate". It can also stop Mobius or w/e, should they run it, where this may not.

 

Huge Revolution Reversal has the perks of banishing and hitting Scrap Dragon, just like this thing. Same as Starlight, except it's a +0 that is set off more easily than Starlight.

 

Anubis activates to Storm and MST, the main S/T destruction, and is a +0 that robs them of field presence and can set their plans back. It's not even good, but it's the best comparison to this, and is easier to set off, in a sense, given 3 MST and 1 Heavy being mained by a lot of people. This only stops BRD and Scrap Dragon, both of which aren't really used in Meta decks this format, and Grapha.

 

This is "Set off easier", but it's completely inferior in effect, use, and activation, in every way. With Torrential @2 and Dark Hole @1, this won't see a lot of use in meta play, and in the undermeta it's even more easily countered given the Synchros that lurk there.

[thekazu4u]

Just saying: I know this is power creep on Judgment Of Anubis and The Great Revolution is over (well Stardust Road is debatable). However, that is sorta what I was going for, and I believe that people using those cards NEED a more powerful option anyway. The only question is: is the card TOO much more powerful? I do not know.

 

Also, I highly doubt that this card comparable to judgment of anubis. This card is a +0 that can give a +1 on each turn. I am not saying it is game changing or anything (although it probably can be in some situations) but I believe you are not accounting for all the power it has.

[Guest Yuzuru Otonashi]

Just saying: I know this is power creep on Judgment Of Anubis and The Great Revolution is over (well Stardust Road is debatable). However, that is sorta what I was going for, and I believe that people using those cards NEED a more powerful option anyway. The only question is: is the card TOO much more powerful? I do not know.

No, this card is bad =|

[thekazu4u]

You summon Inzektor Dragonfly, drop hornet, I use this. No prob, you say. Dragonfly effect. I chain Ojama Trio. Problem?

[Guest Yuzuru Otonashi]

You summon Inzektor Dragonfly, drop hornet, I use this. No prob, you say. Dragonfly effect. I chain Ojama Trio. Problem?

Yay for Situational Combos that involve 2 trap cards, includign a semi'd one ._.

 

Seriously, that means you dedicated 5 cards to a 2 card combo that is situational as can be =/

[thekazu4u]

Yay for Situational Combos that involve 2 trap cards, includign a semi'd one ._.

 

Seriously, that means you dedicated 5 cards to a 2 card combo that is situational as can be =/

 

That was just an example. If you think about it as a single card, 99% of non-boss cards would be useless. In fact, most cards with good card design would be useless according to that theory. It works good for (1) protecting traps (2) discarding from their hand (3) filling up their field. Any card that can make any of these aspects shine will make this card shine. Ojama Trio happens to make all (or at least 2) of these aspects shine, thus it is a particularly good example. It also combos well with Skill Drain, as it is not the token with the effect but the trap, or just any monster with trample as it will essentially be a direct attack. While the card is not completely stand-alone and awesome, I think that in the hands of a good player many good combinations could be found and exploited.I would even think that this card would get a crazy amount of hate from much of the playerbase if it was released on the grounds that it is TOO op'd and causes a yata-lock. To put it plainly, I am just WAY more worried about it being too OP'd than it being too UP'd. At least currently.

[Guest Yuzuru Otonashi]

That was just an example. If you think about it as a single card, 99% of non-boss cards would be useless. In fact, most cards with good card design would be useless according to that theory. It works good for (1) protecting traps (2) discarding from their hand (3) filling up their field. Any card that can make any of these aspects shine will make this card shine.

1. This only stops Heavy... Any other destruction would be MST or some other single targetting card...

2. That doesn't do anything ._. That doesn't harm a single meta deck, atm, and can even be abused by Dark Worlds, provided Skill Drain isn't out, so maining this is bad. Rabbit just laughs and discards something it does not need at that moment, Wind-ups Shrug and search with Factory and such, Inzektors ditch Hornet or something dead then kill you.

3. You take up one slot. The only thing this truly hurts is Wind-ups, as DW can abuse, sans Drain being out, it then kill it, Rabbit, again, doesn't care, and Inzektors would just abuse it.

 

The other 3 I listed do this card's job better, but you seem to not really listen to anything I say, and just try to beat your thoughts into my skull. your card does nothing except clog the field in the case of Wind-ups, and I'd rather just Veiler or Maxx "C" them than run this on the off chance they blind MST it ._.

[Guest Hatcher]

Honestly, the fact that it discards is just meh

Are you seriously insinuating that discarding one card every turn at the start of the draw phase is 'meh'? Are we even playing the same game?

 

and this screams please abuse me with Scrap Dragon

By the time you get out Scrap Dragon, the card's already gone off at least once and you discarded a card in your hand. And this is assuming you can run a deck that can consistentally summon Scrap Dragon at a moment's notice, otherwise you're looking at even more discards.

 

and similar cards of the sort

Such as... what? It can't be used for Synchros and it can't be used as a tribute. All that's left is either mass desruction (Torrential, Dark Hole) or using your own effects against you (Tribute some other monster to summon some random monarch. Target the token.)

 

So, why is everyone harping on this as if those 3 cards don't exist?

No one cares about the fact that it negates MST or Heavy Storm. We're harping on the fact that it's a -1 to your opponent, every single turn.

 

Also, interesting tidbit- This does nothing to any of the top 3 decks at the moment.

If someone made a card back in Autumn 2007 that said 'Remove from play all Earth, Fire, Wind, Water and Heart attribute monsters from your opponents hand, deck, and field' would your response be "Oh, but it doesn't even effect Tele-DAD or Lightsworn. Why is everyone getting so upset?" or would you realize that the card only further centralized a meta where only a small handful of decks win?

 

And that's not even getting into whether or not your claim is accurate. The very reasoning behind it is god awful.

[thekazu4u]

No one cares about the fact that it negates MST or Heavy Storm. We're harping on the fact that it's a -1 to your opponent, every single turn.

 

So you are saying that it needs to be hit? This at least makes a bit of sense to me :) As I was saying, should it be changed to a cont. trap-monster so at least it is MST vulnerable? I think that would go a long way to balance it. Or do you have some other balance in mind? Or are you just saying that it is good the way it is?

 

Nice to finally have something I can work with :)

[Guest Yuzuru Otonashi]

Are you seriously insinuating that discarding one card every turn at the start of the draw phase is 'meh'? Are we even playing the same game?

"Discard" was the point, here, not the every turn.

 

By the time you get out Scrap Dragon, the card's already gone off at least once and you discarded a card in your hand. And this is assuming you can run a deck that can consistentally summon Scrap Dragon at a moment's notice, otherwise you're looking at even more discards.

Not really, given how easy it can be to get Scrap Dragon out. It's not hard at all, modern day, in the right decks.

 

Such as... what? It can't be used for Synchros and it can't be used as a tribute. All that's left is either mass desruction (Torrential, Dark Hole) or using your own effects against you (Tribute some other monster to summon some random monarch. Target the token.)

And those are @2 and 1. That's 3 outs to this, and this only goes off when someone blind MSTs, and there are better ways to stop storm than this.

 

No one cares about the fact that it negates MST or Heavy Storm. We're harping on the fact that it's a -1 to your opponent, every single turn.

But other stuff does the same job as this card better ._. Nothing cares about the bad token

 

If someone made a card back in Autumn 2007 that said 'Remove from play all Earth, Fire, Wind, Water and Heart attribute monsters from your opponents hand, deck, and field' would your response be "Oh, but it doesn't even effect Tele-DAD or Lightsworn. Why is everyone getting so upset?" or would you realize that the card only further centralized a meta where only a small handful of decks win?

Yes, because that was such a diverse meta, as opposed to the current one, which has 4 different decktypes going around on top representing how this affects the majority of the game. 11/10.

 

And that's not even getting into whether or not your claim is accurate. The very reasoning behind it is god awful.

Thank you, come again

[thekazu4u]

Thank you, come again

So far, all you have done is made me believe it is good for the game (although I still think it is super powerful). If there were no ways to counter it, then it would be just stupid. All you have said is tht there is a multitude of ways to counter it, and all that says is that it COULD possibly be balanced. (The whole classic thing of o.O just Magic Drain that PoG.) My view is, that the card, once it gets out, can be quite hard to kill (aside from Inzektors) and that makes it a viable choice in many decks. The fact that it can completely torture somebody that "blindly MSTs" is just a bonus, as IMO those people deserve to die. Slowly.

[Guest Dworkin]

"Nothing cares about the bad token"....really? If I am correct and tokens can be used to Xyz, it is a very good token. They either Dark Hole/TT/Scrap Dragon it, and currently two of those are limited. Unless you already have it, by the time you get any of those you have discarded at least one card. Plus that the token cannot be tributed or used as a synch materieal, and being Lvl 1 makes it a crappy Xyz material.

 

Even if it's just one card, its quite good to make your opponent discard if they dont replace it with the same eff.

 

And a meta where only a few decktypes are worth playing is bad. That kinda goes without saying.

[thekazu4u]

If I am correct and tokens can be used to Xyz, it is a very good token.

you are not correct.

Even if it's just one card, its quite good to make your opponent discard if they dont replace it with the same eff.

I don't get it. Were you not just arguing that it is UP'd, but now you are saying it is OP'd? Or is this just trying to say it is balanced...

And a meta where only a few decktypes are worth playing is bad. That kinda goes without saying.

Yup, and this card if anything makes MORE decks playable. (Or at least pushes them in that direction).

[Guest Hatcher]

"Discard" was the point, here, not the every turn.

Are we talking about individual points of the card or are we discussing it as a whole? Because if you ask me, the whole 'except "Frog the Jam"' part of Substitoad isn't the part that makes it bannable.

 

Not really, given how easy it can be to get Scrap Dragon out. It's not hard at all, modern day, in the right decks.

It's a two card involvement, at the minimum for many decks outside of something like Rekindling. And again, this is assuming you instantly have an out for this card on your very next turn.

 

And those are @2 and 1. That's 3 outs to this, and this only goes off when someone blind MSTs, and there are better ways to stop storm than this.

The problem isn't that it negates Storm or MST. The problem is that it's an infinite discard.

 

But other stuff does the same job as this card better ._. Nothing cares about the bad token

What other card does a better job of discarding from your opponent's hand?

 

Yes,

That wasn't a yes-or-no question.

 

because that was such a diverse meta, as opposed to the current one, which has 4 different decktypes going around on top representing how this affects the majority of the game. 11/10.

Your argument: "This card doesn't effect the top 3 decks in the meta"

My counter-arguement: "A card that banishes all non-Darks and non-Lights wouldn't have effected the top 3 decks in the meta back in 2007, but you'd have to be an idiot to suggest that makes it okay."

[Guest Yuzuru Otonashi]

So far, all you have done is made me believe it is good for the game (although I still think it is super powerful). If there were no ways to counter it, then it would be just stupid. All you have said is tht there is a multitude of ways to counter it, and all that says is that it COULD possibly be balanced. (The whole classic thing of o.O just Magic Drain that PoG.) My view is, that the card, once it gets out, can be quite hard to kill (aside from Inzektors) and that makes it a viable choice in many decks. The fact that it can completely torture somebody that "blindly MSTs" is just a bonus, as IMO those people deserve to die. Slowly.

How the hell did I say it was good for the game? I said it's bad.

 

There's more ways yo counter it than normal stuff, and it's benefits don't outweigh it. Most decks just shrug and move on. It's not hard to kill, given multitudes of effect destruction. In the meta there's Grapha, Inzektors, 3x mass removal, and Rabbit that just dpons a idgaf face. In the undermeta, 3x mass removal, Synchros galore, and all sorts of other removal in addition. Sure, this does not make it worthless because it can be count

 

The only thing this card is good against is swarm, and punishes them if they give up hand advantage for their big plays. Other deck

types don't mind and will just ignore it and then move on from it. So, sure, side against swarm. Old style Blackwings, Fableds, Wind-ups, etc. for the clogging factor, mostly, occasionally the discard.

 

We have a diverse meta atm, so IDK what you're on about, considering I was countering Pika's point of Tele-DAD ._.

 

Are we talking about individual points of the card or are we discussing it as a whole? Because if you ask me, the whole 'except "Frog the Jam"' part of Substitoad isn't the part that makes it bannable.

You're great and changing arguments, aren't you? Cards that discard aren't half as good as cards that send, when used like this. The fact that Dark Worlds and Fableds exist was the point. Send > Discard

 

It's a two card involvement, at the minimum for many decks outside of something like Rekindling. And again, this is assuming you instantly have an out for this card on your very next turn.

Play more decks. Karakuris, Fableds, anything with Rekindling, and most modern Synchro decks can get it out with little to no effort, and not neg themselves. There's also Black Rose, should Scrap not be ready.

 

 

The problem isn't that it negates Storm or MST. The problem is that it's an infinite discard.

Except, it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. It won't last long at all, and might not last. It'll be used in YOUR turn, more often than not, so you have a whole turn to come back.

 

What other card does a better job of discarding from your opponent's hand?

Hunter, Spirit Reaper, etc. But this card is outclassed by Starlight, Anubis, and Revolution, all of which have similar activations, but can be set off when they're not gonna die. Metagame has very little non-Spell destruction, besides hornet that doesn't care, and Grapha who only sorta cares. Undermeta has other stuff, but in those cases, Starlight, Revolution, etc. are superior to this. There's no reason to run this in case you're dueling an idiot who blind MSTs outside of an OTK that'll kill you anyways, and the only other way to set it off is storm.

 

That wasn't a yes-or-no question.

You're sublime with sarcasm, my dear.

 

Your argument: "This card doesn't effect the top 3 decks in the meta"

My counter-arguement: "A card that banishes all non-Darks and non-Lights wouldn't have effected the top 3 decks in the meta back in 2007, but you'd have to be an idiot to suggest that makes it okay."

No

My argument: The current meta reflects a variety of decks. Inzektors, Dark World, Rabbit, and Wind-ups. 4 different decktypes with different goals and work mechanics, only one of which remotely CARES. And that's the one that swarms.

Your argument: If A=B, then d=xyz

[thekazu4u]

How the hell did I say it was good for the game? I said it's bad.

You said it was a bad card, but the argument you made for it being a bad card seemed to argue more (to me) that it was good for the game. You said that a reasonable number of things could counter it, and that it is dependent on what your opponent does (i.e. it encourages player interaction). None of this changes that it causes them to discard EVERY TURN if they fall into it and cannot counter it, and that is powerful. Thus, a powerful card that encourages interaction but can still be countered. Sounds good for the game to me.

We have a diverse meta atm

Uh... no? There are 3 meta decks: Wind-Ups, Rescue Rabbit, and (even this is a slightly lower tier) Inzektors. This is not a diverse meta. I cannot understand how you can possibly think this is a diverse meta. If you want to see a diverse meta, look MTG legacy. Do not look at this terribad format - it is a perfect example of a meta that is not at ALL diverse.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

Uh... no? There are 3 meta decks: Wind-Ups, Rescue Rabbit, and (even this is a slightly lower tier) Inzektors. This is not a diverse meta. I cannot understand how you can possibly think this is a diverse meta. If you want to see a diverse meta, look MTG legacy. Do not look at this terribad format - it is a perfect example of a meta that is not at ALL diverse.

Wind up

Rabbit

Inzektor

Agents

Sams

Dark World

Heros

 

Tier 1 isn't the entire meta.

[thekazu4u]

Wind up

Rabbit

Inzektor

Agents

Sams

Dark World

Heros

 

Tier 1 isn't the entire meta.

 

Agents no longer have a chance against most of these decks. Thus, you found 3 more decks that still fail consistently to the top 3. If you think 6 decks in the top 2.5 tiers is diverse, Yugioh is obviously the only TCG you have played.

[Guest Yuzuru Otonashi]

Agents no longer have a chance against most of these decks. Thus, you found 3 more decks that still fail consistently to the top 3. If you think 6 decks in the top 2.5 tiers is diverse, Yugioh is obviously the only TCG you have played.

You wanna talk 2.5? He was talking 1.5-2

 

Wind up

Rabbit

Inzektor

Agents

Sams

Dark World

HEROes

Lavals (OCG)

Vayu.dek

Fableds

Gem-Knights

Gishkis

Sacreds

Karakuri

 

And some others.

 

anyways, this is going off topic, and nothing productive is coming of it, sans Pika's arguments, so I'm done with this.