Kingdom Xathers Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 So, earlier this morning, I was contemplating on possible ways to get around Laggia's effect outside of Effect Negation. One of these ways was by using a card that would send the card being negated by Laggia to the Grave before it got destroyed. Say for instance: With opponent's Laggia on the field, you activate Monster Reborn to revive whatever. Laggia decides to negate, detaching both of its materials. You then activate Emergency Provisions, sending Monster Reborn to the Grave (since Normal Spells/Quick-Play Spells/Normal Traps/Counter Traps remain on the field during a Chain until they resolve or destroyed). ... the reason this doesn't work, I would realize minutes later, is that Monster Reborn's [i]effect[/i] resolves on the field, where it can still be negated by Laggia, even when the [i]card[/i] is no longer on the field. Sure, you still get 1000 Life Points from your Provisions, but that'll do you no good in the long run. ... boy, am I glad I came to this before going into a Duel and making a fool of myself. Anyways, discuss Evolzar Laggia. You guys should know what he does by now, so I'm not bothering with posting the effect/card image here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medivh Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 He's an instant Solemn Judgement, abliet a slower one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 So terrible card design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Super Polymerization Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 He is good card design. He's just abused by Rabbit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='Darkplant - VENOM' timestamp='1335129797' post='5922692'] So terrible card design.[/quote] [img]http://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/81270XzibitRabbit2.png[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I actually think both this AND Rabbit are bad design. Rabbit is bad because it supports a fricking ton of decks that it allows to be born consistently. It's also JUST LIKE RESCUE CAT. Card that make +0 Synchro/Xyz are generally bad design, though this can be subverted with cards like HC Double Lance or Junk Synchron. Needs to be fairly (Loose term) restrictive in what it can grab to he good design, and it's easy to tip the scale here, Debris being a good example. Laggia is bad design because of the fact it's a walking NO attached to a fairly solid body. As opposed to Rabbit, it's not so horifically badly designed, especially given the DINO restriction. Without Rabbit, only a few decks can get him out consistently, namely lolmacrodino and Evols, neither of which really pose a threat. Evols are Tier 2, but they're not even the best Tier 2 with DW and HEROes running about, and that is, once again, a problem within the cards themselves, not Laggia's. It's bad design, but it's not even remotely comparable to Rabbit in design, and there's no reason to hit this before Rabbit. And don't try the excuse "Rabbit supports the undermeta, too, and makes a lot of fun decks playable". If that was the case, Glow-up should be unbanned, but God knows that's really not the case, sadly. Yes, Rabbit DOES do the aforementioned, but that just means he's eventually gonna find another volatile opportunity to unleash hell on a format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 My amazing counter-argument that doesn't need to be a wall of text in order to be persuasive: If Laggia goes to 0, no one will run Rabbit in tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Darkplant - VENOM' timestamp='1335166792' post='5923177'] My amazing counter-argument that doesn't need to be a wall of text in order to be persuasive: If Laggia goes to 0, no one will run Rabbit in tournaments. [/quote] Except that's terrible logic because Rabbit is still an exploitable mess of a card that will just lay dormant waiting for abuse. Seriously, I even already covered this argument in my post, so it's kinda sad if that's all ya got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Okayokayokayokay. Before anything. What is this argument between us trying to prove? If it's that Rabbit is terrible card design, yes, it is, and I agree perfectly with that (I'm just saying it's terrible [i]and[/i] fun card design). But if it's that Rabbit should be restricted, I say no hell no. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Darkplant - VENOM' timestamp='1335167304' post='5923181'] Okayokayokayokay. Before anything. What is this argument between us trying to prove? If it's that Rabbit is terrible card design, yes, it is, and I agree perfectly with that (I'm just saying it's terrible [i]and[/i] fun card design). But if it's that Rabbit should be restricted, I say no hell no. Which is it? [/quote] It's both, Rabbit needs to go to 1 at least. Laggia's not the extremely broken, it's the abused. Without rabbit your best chances at getting it out are Guaiba and Evols. Laggia also is also support for a not-so-abusable type, sans Rabbit. Guaiba, Evols, Hydrogeddon, and lucky double dinos. it's not as consistent or omfgbroken outside of anything except Rabbit. For example, look at Gem-Knights. They may not be top tier material, but look at how much Rabbit does for the deck. It turns Lavalval Chain into a search for G-K Fusion, it easily makes a +0 Fusion (that can go: +1 pop a card, go nou to effects, pierce for massive damage or double attacking flame wingman), not to mention all the Xyz combos it can set up. Rabbit is much more potent than Laggia is in the current game, and it is clearly the root of the problem as opposed to a Solemn Judgment that is fairly easy to play around if it's not spammed out every turn, which is in part thanks to Rabbit. Laggia becomes an Absolute Zero. Yes, killing Rabbit kills more decks than killing Laggia, but it also prevents constant abuse that will rise up thanks to Rabbit existing. It's just like Rescue Cat, it will always be an issue if it's allowed to exist freely, maybe even at 1. I'd rather kill the cancer than the symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Third option: Leave Laggia and Rabbit, and just put Tour Guide to 1 and Leviair to 0 All. Problems. Solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Darkplant - VENOM' timestamp='1335169861' post='5923202'] Third option: Leave Laggia and Rabbit, and just put Tour Guide to 1 and Leviair to 0 All. Problems. Solved. [/quote] Except no, because banning broken stuff doesn't make other broken stuff less broken. Refer back to Gem-knights again. they don't use Tour Guide or Leviair, they do use Rabbit. They're not meta, but something else could stroll along. Rabbit is plain broken and will always be a problem. This is broken but on a seperate scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Ya know, I honestly think that your argument sorta contradicts with itself, because I think the Gem-Knight Lavalval Chain thing is a very good example of how Rabbit can be good for the game despite being bad card design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 TBH, it would have been great card design if it limited itself to Evolsaurs only, same with Dolkka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 As the dust settled, no one seemed to remember that Lavalval Chain is bad for the game. OT: Laggia to 1, Dollka to 1, Rabbit to 1, TGU to 1, Leviair to 0 PROBLEM. SOLVED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1335188161' post='5923286'] As the dust settled, no one seemed to remember that Lavalval Chain is bad for the game. [/quote] Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1335188881' post='5923291'] Why? [/quote]...besides the "I topdeck BLS"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1335189168' post='5923294'] ...besides the "I topdeck BLS"? [/quote] BLS is a problem in and of himself anyway and most decks dont just end their turn and leave their opponent's field untouched just to get stomped by it one second later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1335189442' post='5923299'] BLS is a problem in and of himself anyway and most decks dont just end their turn and leave their opponent's field untouched just to get stomped by it one second later. [/quote]The problem isn't simply that you can topdeck BLS specifically. It's that you can topdeck basically anything you need. JD, DAD, Inzektor Dragonfly, Rescue Rabbit, Tour b*tch, Chaos Sorc. And hey, if you already have those, then just drop whatever you need in your Graveyard into your Graveyard. Put simply, it has the ability to eliminate luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1335189712' post='5923302'] The problem isn't simply that you can topdeck BLS specifically. It's that you can topdeck basically anything you need. JD, DAD, Inzektor Dragonfly, Rescue Rabbit, Tour b*tch, Chaos Sorc. And hey, if you already have those, then just drop whatever you need in your Graveyard into your Graveyard. Put simply, it has the ability to eliminate luck. [/quote] All of the listed cards bar sorc are broken and hitworthy in their own right,and stacking a sorc for 2 level 4s isnt that broken of a play. Is losing two level 4s and not doing anything else in your turn enough to justify the minor luck elimination from chain? And doesnt loss of luck entail skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1335191091' post='5923310'] All of the listed cards bar sorc are broken and hitworthy in their own right,and stacking a sorc for 2 level 4s isnt that broken of a play. Is losing two level 4s and not doing anything else in your turn enough to justify the minor luck elimination from chain? [/quote]ITT: Just because many of the cards that this card can abuse are broken means that only they are broken. This is basically the same argument we were having with Laggia v Rabbit. Both are broke, including Chain. And minor? Luck is the only thing keeping this game from becoming worse than a pile of dog feces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Frankly, I think Konami should ban everything that's bad design. Then, I'd fire the entire design and development team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1335191276' post='5923312'] ITT: Just because many of the cards that this card can abuse are broken means that only they are broken. This is basically the same argument we were having with Laggia v Rabbit. Both are broke, including Chain. And minor? Luck is the only thing keeping this game from becoming worse than a pile of dog feces. [/quote] Difference is that rabbit is very unrestrictive,fast and free in making things and goes off well practically any time in a game,which makes him muuuuuch more likely to be problematic,lavalval chain has restriction of two level 4s,not being able to do anything in the turn you summon it and generally being too slow past early game,which makes him at least slightly better design. Searchers are only as powerful as what they search in conjunction with how they search,lavalval chain's search or dump is only broken if what he's searching is BLS calibur or what he's dumping is hornet. Not saying that chain is perfect card design,but he's only as stupid as what he searches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1335192739' post='5923325'] Difference is that rabbit is very unrestrictive,fast and free in making things and goes off well practically any time in a game,which makes him muuuuuch more likely to be problematic,lavalval chain has restriction of two level 4s,not being able to do anything in the turn you summon it and generally being too slow past early game,which makes him at least slightly better design. Searchers are only as powerful as what they search in conjunction with how they search,lavalval chain's search or dump is only broken if what he's searching is BLS calibur or what he's dumping is hornet. Not saying that chain is perfect card design,but he's only as stupid as what he searches. [/quote]The problem is that there will always be something stupid to search. :\ Remember, I'd said how luck is important. Being able to eliminate luck from the game is one of the stupidest things you can do in card design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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