WhoAreYou? Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 [IMG]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/magithebadguy/03%2010%2008%20mel/MetamorphosisSuperCP01-EN003yugiohM.jpg[/IMG] Srsly. Discuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 Cyber End Dragon [/thread] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAreYou? Posted April 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 Who plays Level 10 monsters anymore, though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335740387' post='5928818'] Cyber End Dragon [s][/thread][/s] [/quote] Oh, believe me, nowadays there are far more reasons this should not come back than simply Cyber End Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Î’yakuya Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 The moment when I saw Tribute I thought Hieratics. These days its easier to get out a Fusion than a cup of ramen or a scientist related to Kozaky, with no constraints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1335740628' post='5928822'] Oh, believe me, nowadays there are far more reasons this should not come back than simply Cyber End Dragon. [/quote] le true. [quote name='DJVD' timestamp='1335740602' post='5928821'] Who plays Level 10 monsters anymore, though? [/quote] Still a badly designed card, regardless of whether they're used or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manjoume Thunder Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 don't know if there is any good new (released after the ban) fusions except heroes (don't work with this) but the only good ones I can think of are Cyber Twin (would be actually clutch to pop a Scrap Dragon that you used to destroy their field or even a Grapha and go for game) and Balter Coincidentally, Dark Worlds happen to run the best tribute for a LVL8 Fusion, not so hard to summon LVL5 mons and support for Fiends so the card could be decent there. EDIT: there was also that naturia dude but iirc he was level 9 or 10 (good luck with that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althemia Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Cyber Twin Dragon in Dark Worlds, which you can then recover what you Tributed easily. nothanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSektor Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Hierophosis.dek AWESOME, but no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 People please mention something about Elemental HERO Neo Bubbleman. ...Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manjoume Thunder Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [spoiler=All Decent Fusions that can be used with this] Level 12 Barbaroid Level 10 Cyber End Dragon Gaia Drake Naturia Extrio Destiny End Dragoon Level 8 Cyber Twin Dragon Gatling Dragon Stealth Union Jumbo Drill Raptinus Vision HERO Adoration Level 7 Cyber Eltanin Cyber Ogre 2 King Dragun Last Warrior from Another PLanet Level 6 Dark Blade Koalo-Koala Ojama King Level 5 Reaper on the Nightmare Ojama Knight Balter Fiend Skull Dragon [/spoiler] Most are bad. There are some gimmicks like King Dragun and Raptinus that can create new decks. Levels 8 and 10 are fairly cool (big beaters + monster destruction and Extrio) [s]but level 10 is hard to summon[/s] EDIT:forgot REDMD The only problems I see are Grapha being broken (it already is) and Extrio. Ban Extrio and unban this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 And while you're at it, unban Thousand-Eyes Restrict so Piper can stall moar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335740803' post='5928826'] Still a badly designed card, regardless of whether they're used or not. [/quote] Making the game better by making fusions playable competitively = bad design? If a card can add anything positive to the game when it's legal in any way it can be considered good design,a format with polymerization keeping the sacrosanctity of fusioning as it is now at the cost of a million playable decks is not better designed than a format that lets fusions be playable,but in a different way.If anything cyber twin and exterio are bad design in that they're either complete and utter crap when not being morphed out or completely stupid when they ARE morphed out,they're either terror or trash,so what we lose by banning them is 0 competitive cards,and what we gain by banning them is a trillion competitive balanced cards.No really,what's the point of keeping exterio and cyber twin around,what do they add for game that's better than what meta adds for game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1335812535' post='5929437'] Making the game better by making fusions playable competitively = bad design? If a card can add anything positive to the game when it's legal in any way it can be considered good design,a format with polymerization keeping the sacrosanctity of fusioning as it is now at the cost of a million playable decks is not better designed than a format that lets fusions be playable,but in a different way.If anything cyber twin and exterio are bad design in that they're either complete and utter crap when not being morphed out or completely stupid when they ARE morphed out,they're either terror or trash,so what we lose by banning them is 0 competitive cards,and what we gain by banning them is a trillion competitive balanced cards.No really,what's the point of keeping exterio and cyber twin around,what do they add for game that's better than what meta adds for game? [/quote] First of all, Heroes are meta. And... Metamorphosis wouldn't see use without those anyway, so your idea is completely pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1335812535' post='5929437'] Making the game better by making fusions playable competitively = bad design? If a card can add anything positive to the game when it's legal in any way it can be considered good design,a format with polymerization keeping the sacrosanctity of fusioning as it is now at the cost of a million playable decks is not better designed than a format that lets fusions be playable,but in a different way.If anything cyber twin and exterio are bad design in that they're either complete and utter crap when not being morphed out or completely stupid when they ARE morphed out,they're either terror or trash,so what we lose by banning them is 0 competitive cards,and what we gain by banning them is a trillion competitive balanced cards.No really,what's the point of keeping exterio and cyber twin around,what do they add for game that's better than what meta adds for game? [/quote] 'If a card can add anything positive to the game when it's legal in any way it can be considered good design'. lol. Rabbit gave birth to 300 new variants of deck and boosted undermeta tons, it's still crap design. Last time I checked, YGO wasn't completely 100% metagame play, and design isn't just to do with the metagame anyway. It's to do with giving players what they need, not what they want, and balancing both the metagame and undermeta. All you're focused on is that there seems to be no harm bringing it back, so they might as well. It's not a priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 The way rabbit adds to the game is a more broken than the way meta adds to the game. Rabbit is a free +0 xyz at practically no cost,so it can still be considered if slightly bad design if we ignore the ways it can enrich the game. Metamorphosis is a -1,takes a bit of setup and can be inconsistent or not worth using,what makes it impact is the power of the fusions it is tapping into, andadds an entire new dimension to the extra deck and the game in general,so it can at least be considered more worth protecting than rabbit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 ITT: Because one card that should be banned is not banned, everything should be unbanned. That seems to be what I'm getting from this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Metamorphosis restricts card design far too much. You basically aren't allowed to make big showy Fusions which is one of the fun things about using them in case Metamorphosis would break the card. Exterio is good design. Being unplayable doesn't mean it's bad design, it just means its niche isn't within competitive play. It's a card made by Konami for the Johnnys (basically a term for a player who likes to win in style), and considering its niche, it's great design. Hell, if it means stuff like Exterio and other examples of perfectly fine design have to be banned, this ain't coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manjoume Thunder Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335814006' post='5929454'] Metamorphosis restricts card design far too much. You basically aren't allowed to make big showy Fusions which is one of the fun things about using them in case Metamorphosis would break the card. [/quote] "This card must first be Fusion Summoned" Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='Manjoume Thunder' timestamp='1335814692' post='5929462'] "This card must first be Fusion Summoned" Problem solved. [/quote] Plenty of existing well-designed targets though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manjoume Thunder Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 And the only problematic one is Extrio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catterjune Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335814006' post='5929454'] Metamorphosis restricts card design far too much. [/quote] "This monster cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon." Yeah, really restricting cards there. Honestly, Cyber Twin and Cyber End should be banned before this comes back. Possibly a few other cards, but that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='Manjoume Thunder' timestamp='1335814826' post='5929464'] And the only problematic one is Extrio. [/quote] [quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1335815006' post='5929469'] "This monster cannot be Special Summoned except by Fusion Summon." Yeah, really restricting cards there. Honestly, Cyber Twin and Cyber End should be banned before this comes back. Possibly a few other cards, but that's about it. [/quote] 1. Apart from Metamorphosis, any reason those cards should even be considered for a ban? 2. Does the game [b]need[/b] Metamorphosis to exist? Or is it we simply [i]want[/i] it to come back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335814006' post='5929454'] Metamorphosis restricts card design far too much. You basically aren't allowed to make big showy Fusions which is one of the fun things about using them in case Metamorphosis would break the card. [/quote]Metamorphosis on it's own is awful. A -1,takes significant setup,inconsistent as hell,usually win moary,needs extra deck dedication,and etc. Blaming the fusion might be better. Maybe if konami actually designed cards WELL and didnt make fusions that are stupid every time they are morphed or crappy every time they are not morphed,this wouldnt even happen,if konami actually designed good design fusions this wouldnt happen.. [quote]Exterio is good design. Being unplayable doesn't mean it's bad design, it just means its niche isn't within competitive play. It's a card made by Konami for the Johnnys (basically a term for a player who likes to win in style), and considering its niche, it's great design. Hell, if it means stuff like Exterio and other examples of perfectly fine design have to be banned, this ain't coming back. [/quote] That's fine. Do you have any reason why that mini niche is more important for game than competitive diversity or...? Do you have any reason why fun as a whole is more important than balance or diversity? The ideal format is one most people would most likely hate,for ****ty reasons including "I cant play with exterio? This format sucks!!1". There are four cases for a card's design: - It is complete trash that can never see competitive play and cant even fool bad players into thinking it is competitive. - It is competitive trash,but can fool bad players into thinking it is competitive. - It is competitive to a healthy amount,as a tier 1/2,but not gamebreaking. - It is competitive,but shouldnt be. The first option might as well make the card useless since it can never add anything to competitive play,that IS what decides the game and makes it diverse in the only way that matters,noncompetitive diversity and playing your fancy niche is not better for game than competitive diversity,if a card is so useless that your opponent is automatically not a threat to you for using it it might as well not be there and nobody would care. The second option is a goldmine,in that it makes the gamestate "This card sucks,but a lot of bad players can fall for it being competitive and lose more,but good players will win for knowing it is bad",adding skill to the game,but exterio is so damn bad that nobody can be fooled into thinking it is good,so it's flagged off as not possible for it. The third option is akin to duality or forbidden lance,in that the card is good for game when it is competitive and doesnt break anything,cyber twin can probably land here,metamorphing a level 8 is almost always losing a better boss monster or giving up too many resources(tributing a scrap dragon you made on a - makes cyber twin a -2 situational drop,so that can mitigate it). The fourth option brings us to mass driver,which is only competitive when it is stupid or breaking the game,and cant even fool bad players into thinking it is competitive,exterio could file here.If a card cannot be competitive without damaging the game and is otherwise too bad to fool bks into thinking it is competitive,that card is badly designed,hence why people call for cannon soldier and friends to be banned. So at the end we have a card that's either damaging to the competitive game or completely useless for the competitive game,with no incentive to protect it other than "it fills a noncompetitive niche". Is pleasing people who like giant lions and playing with them for fun more important than diversity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote]Is pleasing people who like giant lions and playing with them for fun more important than diversity? [/quote] Okay: Johnny (style) niche = Spike (competitive) niche Money > Diversity Edit: Also, I cannot believe you just sorted every card's design into 4 categories. Blasphemous for design teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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