Canadian's September 2012 Ban List Predictions

[Agro]

Trag is fine @3 if Gorz is gone. Hell, no one runs 2 outside LS. Trag doesn't really reward bad play like Gorz does. It can only run over stuff if you have enough cards in hand, which isn't like you're on your last leg.

[Sunshine Jesse]

[quote name='Inzektor Ladybug' timestamp='1337729656' post='5945116']
That would outright kill the entire deck.
[/quote]
Two things:
1. It doesn't matter. A deck shouldn't be spared if it relies on a broken card.
2. No, it wouldn't. It'd just require the deck to be played and built differently.

[Agro]

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1337741464' post='5945255']A deck shouldn't be spared if it relies on a broken card.
[/quote]But it's fine if it relies on several broken cards!

[Althemia]

TGU can go to 2.
Also Snoww should be hit over Grapha, lol.

[Sunshine Jesse]

[quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1337748146' post='5945324']
But it's fine if it relies on several broken cards!
[/quote]
...
nope.


[quote name='Cat Queen' timestamp='1337748341' post='5945325']
TGU can go to 2.
Also Snoww should be hit over Grapha, lol.
[/quote]
I disagree. I think power should be hit over consistency in most cases.

[Althemia]

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1337756530' post='5945360']
...
nope.
I disagree. I think power should be hit over consistency in most cases.
[/quote]

Hitting Earth was enough to kill Agents. Point proven?

[Agro]

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1337756530' post='5945360']
...
nope.
[/quote]Too bad, since that's how it's been for years.

[Sunshine Jesse]

[quote name='Cat Queen' timestamp='1337756701' post='5945361']
Hitting Earth was enough to kill Agents. Point proven?
[/quote]
I bet hitting Hyperion (and BLS+Sorc) would've done the same. Hitting consistency over power cards is -more- likely to completely kill a deck. Without Hyperion, they could just be spliced into another deck or mixed into one. Without Earth, Agents can't even be used as an engine that well. There's no point in running them on a competitive level in any form. (Do not quote me on this. I'm being hyperbolic and do not know this for a fact.)

Just as no deck inherently deserves to live, no deck inherently deserves to die.

Hitting consistency over power just makes the deck more sacky and reduces the skill involved in playing it, which is pretty much the opposite of what I want in a ban list.

[quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1337756967' post='5945363']
Too bad, since that's how it's been for years.
[/quote]

Theoretical banlist topics aren't based on what will likely or what -will- be, they're what ought to be. "Too bad" isn't the right phrase. I accept the flaws of this game and still manage to enjoy it, but that doesn't mean I can't speak about what I'd prefer.

[This Account is Unplayable]

Have you even played Agents this format? Keeping Hyperion over Earth is what makes them still playable. It would be the exact same with Grapha vs Snoww, hit Snoww and the deck is still usable, but no longer consistent enough to top anything, hit Grapha and the deck just dies. There's absolutely no reason to kill a deck that doesn't have to be killed to stop it from being a good deck.

[Sunshine Jesse]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337757799' post='5945367']
Have you even played Agents this format? Keeping Hyperion over Earth is what makes them still playable. It would be the exact same with Grapha vs Snoww, hit Snoww and the deck is still usable, but no longer consistent enough to top anything, hit Grapha and the deck just dies. There's absolutely no reason to kill a deck that doesn't have to be killed to stop it from being a good deck.
[/quote]
I have indeed not played Agents, hence the disclaimer! They'd still have Kirstya without Hyperion, at least, but I never played the deck so I'm probably wrong there.

I also doubt that hitting Grapha would kill the deck outright. DWs would still have various shenanigans with Gates and would generate great advantage by simply being around. You could still throw the DW engine into a Malefic deck or some s*** like that. Probably awful, but just an example. An infinitely recurring +1 beatstick seems massively more problematic than a searcher anyways.

And, let's be honest here. If a deck can't top post the changes you might have in mind, what's the point in keeping a deck alive? Why keep a deck competitive if it can't win? So bad players can run it and occasionally nab a win that they didn't deserve? So it can act as cannon fodder for better players? I don't think that's acceptable on any level, as neither really accomplish anything positive. But I admit that previous statement might be somewhat of a strawman.

[This Account is Unplayable]

Without Hyperion, Agents wouldn't even be remotely viable as a deck, while they're not tier 1 by any means they're not awful at the moment.

No, without Grapha they would never be run. +s or no +s the deck isn't remotely strong enough without Grapha and Malefics are better off running Geartown and Necrovalley.

You seem to miss the point that a deck should still actually be usable, why should a deck be outright killed instead of just being hindered enough to stop it being too powerful? The Dark World engine atm consists of 10-11 monsters (1 and 2 Beiige, respectively), limiting Snoww cuts this down to 8-9 monsters, which is far from a consistent enough engine that just lost its two searchers, but it doesn't make it so the deck is entirely unusable, which is the problem you create when Grapha is gone. And rogue decks get random wins all the time that they don't deserve, so I don't get your last point either.

[Sunshine Jesse]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337759147' post='5945371']
And rogue decks get random wins all the time that they don't deserve, so I don't get your last point either.
[/quote]
Rogue either lack the consistency required to win, thus resulting in more sackiness and therefore more luck over skill, or they lack the power/control, which could be solved by innovation in the deck itself. To me, if a deck truly requires dominating power cards to be competitive, it's poorly-designed and shouldn't be given a chance to be competitive. This is just my opinion, though.

[size=1]This might actually contradict my previous statement on whether decks deserve to live or die now that I think about it.[/size]

[Canadian]

[quote name='Cat Queen' timestamp='1337748341' post='5945325']
TGU can go to 2.
Also Snoww should be hit over Grapha, lol.
[/quote]
Fantastic reasoning, thank you very much, lol

[Tiger Tracks]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337759147' post='5945371']
Without Hyperion, Agents wouldn't even be remotely viable as a deck, while they're not tier 1 by any means they're not awful at the moment.

No, without Grapha they would never be run. +s or no +s the deck isn't remotely strong enough without Grapha and Malefics are better off running Geartown and Necrovalley.

You seem to miss the point that a deck should still actually be usable, why should a deck be outright killed instead of just being hindered enough to stop it being too powerful? The Dark World engine atm consists of 10-11 monsters (1 and 2 Beiige, respectively), limiting Snoww cuts this down to 8-9 monsters, which is far from a consistent enough engine that just lost its two searchers, but it doesn't make it so the deck is entirely unusable, which is the problem you create when Grapha is gone. And rogue decks get random wins all the time that they don't deserve, so I don't get your last point either.
[/quote]

Ok, first of all, Agents are tier 3 at best. It's unplayable and by any realistic standard it's unplayable.

The main problem with your argument is that you treat Agents and Dark Worlds as essentially the same deck and assume that the need to be fixed in the same manner. While both decks have boss monsters and monster based consistency/plussing engines, that is the end of their superficial differences.

Hitting the monster based engine of the Agent deck was successful at taking the deck's tiered status away from it because of how it played. The deck had big boss monsters that eventually won the game, but the deck would win because of the monster engine. If the monster engine was stopped; monster removal, Effect Veiler, Maxx "C", etc. - the deck would lose. Yes, you could win without a successful Venus play, but it was an uphill battle that usually ended in a loss. The Agent engine was the core of the deck, and hitting it was the best way to get rid of it. If instead Earth was at three and Hyperion was limited or banned than the deck would probably still be seeing play. Venus and company are a self-sufficient engine that fuels so many boss monsters. That deck relied on its engine to win not its boss monsters.


[quote name='Cat Queen' timestamp='1337748341' post='5945325']
TGU can go to 2.
[/quote]

Semi limits are only for cards that have self interactions that are unacceptable at three and are fixed at two. Cards like Dewloren, Malicious, and Tengu.

When TGU is at three: Copies one and two make a one card investment Xyz. Copy three fetches Sangan for a search or, for all intents and purposes, turns Sangan into a fourth TGU and makes another one card investment Xyz.

When TGU is at two: Copy one fetches copy two and becomes a one card investment Xyz. Sangan becomes optional to include and essentially nothing changes

When TGU is at one: TGU becomes a tech for decks that already run sufficient numbers of level 3 fiends. Anyone trying to play it as a generic one card Xyz in an idiot.




@Canadian: I find no problems with the list for the most part but I do have a few questions.

1. Why ban WU Hunter over WU Carrier? Unless there is a loop that doesn't involve Carrier that I'm unaware of than it would be more appropriate to ban Zenmaighty. There would be no reliable way to get rid of more than two cards out of hand without relying on something inconsistent like CotH. I don't see how what is basically a monster version of Drop off is more threatening than a omni-present field presence producer. Don't cop out with "Konami wouldn't do that" either. Konami is unlikely to make half of these changes and you know it.

2. Why ban Heavy Storm. Nothing has really changed since last time. Yes we have gained Night Beam but it is no better than Dust Tornado and that never saw (much) play last year. Heavy Storm isn't a great card to have around but until a suitable replacement comes around it's a necessary evil.

3. Why limit Laggia but not touch Rabbit? I'm not saying the Evolzaurs shouldn't be touched but not touching their biggest enablers is worse. Hitting the big boss monsters for Rabbit.deck doesn't hurt the deck. Rescue Rabbit will just find new guys to chill with. I mean, giving new bosses for Rabbit doesn't really fix anything does it. And again, this is list is what you want to see happen; Konami is just an excuse.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='Tiger Tracks' timestamp='1337783387' post='5945445']
Ok, first of all, Agents are tier 3 at best. It's unplayable and by any realistic standard it's unplayable.
The main problem with your argument is that you treat Agents and Dark Worlds as essentially the same deck and assume that the need to be fixed in the same manner. While both decks have boss monsters and monster based consistency/plussing engines, that is the end of their superficial differences.
Hitting the monster based engine of the Agent deck was successful at taking the deck's tiered status away from it because of how it played. The deck had big boss monsters that eventually won the game, but the deck would win because of the monster engine. If the monster engine was stopped; monster removal, Effect Veiler, Maxx "C", etc. - the deck would lose. Yes, you could win without a successful Venus play, but it was an uphill battle that usually ended in a loss. The Agent engine was the core of the deck, and hitting it was the best way to get rid of it. If instead Earth was at three and Hyperion was limited or banned than the deck would probably still be seeing play. Venus and company are a self-sufficient engine that fuels so many boss monsters. That deck relied on its engine to win not its boss monsters.
[/quote]

So much wrong with this.

First of all, Agents are far from tier 3, as it were. At least, it all depends on how you decide your tiers. Most of the time the general census is that LS are the top deck of tier 3, and anything better would be low tier 2 or higher. As a metagame option, Agents are actually really good, as myself and a few others have tested and found. They aren't as consistent as they were with Earth, which keeps them from being ridiculously overpowered.

Now then, I have also tested Dark Worlds in custom formats, where Snoww is limited. It hurts the deck so hard it's not even funny, but it doesn't prevent them from being a deck. How else do you consistently get Grapha in the graveyard? You have to run inconsistent cards like Armageddon Knight which overall doesn't aid the deck's goal. You've also lost 2 monsters that were discard targets, meaning you have a higher chance of a discard outlet being a dead draw. Again, though, limiting Snoww doesn't outright kill the deck, Dark Worlds have beyond no hope without Grapha, with it they can still be used and are much more an anti-meta option with only 1 Snoww.

[Canadian]

[quote name='Tiger Tracks' timestamp='1337783387' post='5945445']
@Canadian: I find no problems with the list for the most part but I do have a few questions.

1. Why ban WU Hunter over WU Carrier? Unless there is a loop that doesn't involve Carrier that I'm unaware of than it would be more appropriate to ban Zenmaighty. There would be no reliable way to get rid of more than two cards out of hand without relying on something inconsistent like CotH. I don't see how what is basically a monster version of Drop off is more threatening than a omni-present field presence producer. Don't cop out with "Konami wouldn't do that" either. Konami is unlikely to make half of these changes and you know it.

2. Why ban Heavy Storm. Nothing has really changed since last time. Yes we have gained Night Beam but it is no better than Dust Tornado and that never saw (much) play last year. Heavy Storm isn't a great card to have around but until a suitable replacement comes around it's a necessary evil.

3. Why limit Laggia but not touch Rabbit? I'm not saying the Evolzaurs shouldn't be touched but not touching their biggest enablers is worse. Hitting the big boss monsters for Rabbit.deck doesn't hurt the deck. Rescue Rabbit will just find new guys to chill with. I mean, giving new bosses for Rabbit doesn't really fix anything does it. And again, this is list is what you want to see happen; Konami is just an excuse.
[/quote]

1. Zenmaity could also be banned to stop the loops. Though, I guess I like Hunter going to 0 a lot more as Zenmaity would still be a nice card for the deck to have (even if limited afterwards), as opposed to a Hunter who sucks and is only used in looping the hand away. And as for what Konami will do, I said before that I know most of these wont happen, and I should ammend my OP to "wants" more or less. But all of my changes would help YGO.

2. I do agree with the idea that we need a Heavy Storm which isn't used as a green light for OTKs. But until we get one, I really do not like the idea of "Storm > GG". I do like the idea of "oh no, if I set more than 1 S/T, my opponent could gain advantage off of my loss in backrow due to "alternative storm", but at least I can't lose this turn if I do so there is a chance for me to turn this around. For the format it would create, I have said that I would like it to be slower, and more controlled, which is what removing Storm would do.

3. I have agreed that Rabbit could also get Limited, but I also want Laggia to go to 1, as that card isn't exactly "fair" either. I can see something like Konami thinking "lol semi-limit rabbit" and that will be all they would do though.

[Tiger Tracks]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337783737' post='5945450']
So much wrong with this.

First of all, Agents are far from tier 3, as it were. At least, it all depends on how you decide your tiers. Most of the time the general census is that LS are the top deck of tier 3, and anything better would be low tier 2 or higher. As a metagame option, Agents are actually really good, as myself and a few others have tested and found. They aren't as consistent as they were with Earth, which keeps them from being ridiculously overpowered.

Now then, I have also tested Dark Worlds in custom formats, where Snoww is limited. It hurts the deck so hard it's not even funny, but it doesn't prevent them from being a deck. How else do you consistently get Grapha in the graveyard? You have to run inconsistent cards like Armageddon Knight which overall doesn't aid the deck's goal. You've also lost 2 monsters that were discard targets, meaning you have a higher chance of a discard outlet being a dead draw. Again, though, limiting Snoww doesn't outright kill the deck, Dark Worlds have beyond no hope without Grapha, with it they can still be used and are much more an anti-meta option with only 1 Snoww.
[/quote]

I base my tiers on how often I see a deck top. Usually I only pay attention to the top 16 as feel going further away from that leads questionable card choices and/or random stuff got there for no reason. Perhaps I've not been paying attention. If you insist that LS are top of tier 3 than I will continue to say Agents are tier three as they are not much better than Lightsworns.

And I still don't see how the Snoww limit hurts DWs. The deck has so much draw power that you can draw half of your deck in one turn. If you can't find a discard outlet for Grapha, I don't know what to say. You have 3 DWD, 3 Gates, 3 DDitG, and Foolish which should already be in the main. From there just add Trans Archfiend, Dark Smog, and Trade-In (not trigger Grapha, it's just to get him in the grave and find the stuff you're looking for). If you find yourself without stuff to discard you either don't use said card or take out discard outlets. There are plenty of things to get Grapha where he wants to be.


But what really bothers me is that you don't seem to under stand is that if a deck cannot function without a broken card (Grapha) than the deck doesn't deserve to exist. What's worse, your saying that even after being given the luxury of keeping Grapha at one, the deck still isn't good enough.

Dark Worlds were never a good deck to begin with. Gates and Snoww were fantastic support and should be of enough assistance by themselves. If deck can't win without Grapha the deck shouldn't see competitive play at all.

[Mysty]

[quote name='Tiger Tracks' timestamp='1337786065' post='5945470']
I base my tiers on how often I see a deck top. [color=#0000ff]Usually I only pay attention to the top 16[/color] as feel going further away from that leads questionable card choices and/or random stuff got there for no reason. Perhaps I've not been paying attention. If you insist that LS are top of tier 3 than I will continue to say Agents are tier three as they are not much better than Lightsworns.

And I still don't see how the Snoww limit hurts DWs. The deck has so much draw power that you can draw half of your deck in one turn. If you can't find a discard outlet for Grapha, I don't know what to say. You have 3 DWD, 3 Gates, 3 DDitG, and Foolish which should already be in the main. From there just add Trans Archfiend, Dark Smog, and Trade-In (not trigger Grapha, it's just to get him in the grave and find the stuff you're looking for). If you find yourself without stuff to discard you either don't use said card or take out discard outlets. There are plenty of things to get Grapha where he wants to be.

[color=#0000ff]But what really bothers me is that you don't seem to under stand is that if a deck cannot function without a broken card (Grapha) than the deck doesn't deserve to exist. What's worse, your saying that even after being given the luxury of keeping Grapha at one, the deck still isn't good enough.[/color]

Dark Worlds were never a good deck to begin with. Gates and Snoww were fantastic support and should be of enough assistance by themselves. If deck can't win without Grapha the deck shouldn't see competitive play at all.
[/quote]

Konami only pays attention to the top decks too.

The general consensus on the YCM it seems (and in Konami's mind) is that broken cards are okay as long as the decks using them aren't the top-meta. It keeps the game fast and fun for the casual crowd and keeps the banlist to a minimum, which is obviously one of Konami's objectives.

Konami's patterns for limiting cards is about attacking what makes a playable deck competitive: consistency. Limiting Snoww to 1 actually does a lot more to Dark World's consistency than anyone would like to give it credit for, as their testing would state. I've never done this test, so I personally don't know how weak it makes Dark Worlds, but it's readily apparent that the following two are true:
• Snoww is a no-Tribute "Normal Summon Grapha from Graveyard"; two less greatly reduces your ability to always have Grapha out. Not to mention, if your 1 Snoww gets Bottomless'd, then the search engine becomes very stagnant and Grapha gets very dissapointed.
• Snoww and Broww recover card advantage lost from its draw engines; with two less of those cards, you're not guaranteed to have enough fuel to use your full draw engine that draws through half your deck.
Pretty much, you lost 1/3 of the cards that helped you cycle through the deck faster, and now only one of those four remaining cards guarantees you'll draw into the next draw engine.

But it seems this topic has changed into a theoretical ban list discussion as opposed to a prediction, and so I'll try to bring everyone back to earth with my analysis of the unrealistic list in the first post and then my own predictions of changes.

[quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1337650972' post='5944561']
So we're about halfway through our junky format and the meta is starting to define itself as a rock paper scissors format (which most of us knew would happen 3 months ago). But, there is a light at the end of the tunnel in which the September 2012 Banlist can help put our beloved Yugimonz on the right track again. Most of these changes I feel are feasible and encourage feedback from the community.

[b]Banned:[/b]
Future Fusion [color=#0000ff][b]Hopefully, but I won't be surprised either way.[/b][/color]
Card Destruction [color=#0000ff][b]I doubt it.[/b][/color] [color=#0000ff][b]Last I checked, Dark Worlds don't top.[/b][/color]
Wind-Up Hunter [color=#0000ff][b]Either that or limit it. I doubt they'd hit the engine that spams out 3 Zenmaity.[/b][/color]
Black Luster Soldier [b][color=#0000ff]The game hasn't fallen apart since he came back. He's probably here to stay.[/color][/b]
Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon [color=#0000ff][b]For some reason, I think they'll only limit it. It hurts the consistency and power of dragons while weakening the Gustaph Max possibility. They'll probably experiment with it at 1 first. [/b][/color]
Monster Reborn [color=#0000ff][b]Read BLS' reason.[/b][/color]
Inzektor Hornet [color=#0000ff][b]Hmmm... broken card. What can we do to weaken the consistency instead? Limit Centipede. Centipede is the key to both kinds of Inzektor decks.[/b][/color]
Final Countdown? [color=#0000ff][b]Is Final Countdown topping? No? That's what's the problem?[/b][/color]
Heavy Storm? [color=#0000ff][b]I seriously doubt this too.[/b][/color]

[b]Limited:[/b]
Grapha, Dragon Lord of Darkworld [color=#0000ff][b]read Hornet's comment, and replace Centipede with Snoww.[/b][/color]
Evolzar Laggia [color=#0000ff][b]Either that or Rabbit. I'm leaning more towards Rabbit though.[/b][/color]
Tour Guide from the Underworld [color=#0000ff][b]Still an expensive card? Yep. After the Battle Pack? Probably not so much. This is plausible, but on the safe side I'll say semi, since a deck using only Tour Guides and Sangan will only be able to Xyz once while Fiend decks (which, last I checked, don't see play except for Dark Worlds) will get the access of one more Xyz. [/b][/color]
[/quote]

I think I have Konami's patterns figured out, and, as such, here is the most conservative realistic list I can think of.

Banned:
Wind-Up Hunter (or goes to limited)
Future Fusion (or stays at limited)

Limited:
REDMD
Inzektor Centipede
Snoww, Unlight of Dark World (if they even think of hitting Dark Worlds)
either Evolzar Laggia or Rescue Rabbit (whichever one is probably a coin flip to Konami)
Hieratic Seal of Convocation (because it's a search engine of Hieratics)

Semi-Limited:
Tour Guide from the Underworld

And there, I have hit Dino-Rabbit, Chaos Dragons, Hieratics, Inzektors, and Wind-Ups (and even Dark Worlds). Do note that this list is my prediction list based on what I've learned of Konami's lologic; it isn't meant to actually be a good list.

[Canadian]

[quote name='Mysty' timestamp='1337791780' post='5945509']
I think I have Konami's patterns figured out, and, as such, here is the most conservative realistic list I can think of.

Banned:
Wind-Up Hunter (or goes to limited)
Future Fusion (or stays at limited)

Limited:
REDMD
Inzektor Centipede
Snoww, Unlight of Dark World (if they even think of hitting Dark Worlds)
either Evolzar Laggia or Rescue Rabbit (whichever one is probably a coin flip to Konami)
Hieratic Seal of Convocation (because it's a search engine of Hieratics)

Semi-Limited:
Tour Guide from the Underworld

And there, I have hit Dino-Rabbit, Chaos Dragons, Hieratics, Inzektors, and Wind-Ups (and even Dark Worlds). Do note that this list is my prediction list based on what I've learned of Konami's lologic; it isn't meant to actually be a good list.
[/quote]

Convocation? If REDMD does go to 1, then Gustaph is not a problem with Hieratics and I don't think they'll be topping any time soon. Therefore, like with Darkworlds, they probably wont get hit.

However, this list seems really realistic in terms of what Konami thinks is a good move, and that, unfortunately makes me sad, in the sense that we are able to see how they will address problems but not exactly fix all of them.

Also, BLS needs to be banned. That or TGU to 1. You can have both in the format or else BLS + TGU + Veilers will continue to get put in every deck and pull out wins from nowhere, even with priority gone. How has it lost any power? I have no idea. It is still as OP'ed as when it was Forbidden.

[Agro]

I still don't think that the idea of "if a deck needs a broken card, it shouldn't exist" shouldn't be an argument.