Canadian Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 So we're about halfway through our junky format and the meta is starting to define itself as a rock paper scissors format (which most of us knew would happen 3 months ago). But, there is a light at the end of the tunnel in which the September 2012 Banlist can help put our beloved Yugimonz on the right track again. Most of these changes I feel are feasible and encourage feedback from the community. [b]Banned:[/b] Future Fusion Card Destruction Wind-Up Hunter Black Luster Soldier Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon Monster Reborn Inzektor Hornet Final Countdown? Heavy Storm? [b]Limited:[/b] Grapha, Dragon Lord of Darkworld Evolzar Laggia Tour Guide from the Underworld [b]Semi-limited:[/b] N/A [b]Unbanned:[/b] This is not really important at all. I can put things here if it matters that much to you though. Some reasoning: First off, I would like to say these are feasible predictions, not wants. So you will not see me banning Brionac or unbanning Magician of Faith and the such. My main approach was to take the top decks of the format an address issues with each of the decks that give them an unfair advantage (this is why heroes aren't up there... yet) and then deal with the generic cards which hurt the game more than help it. [u]Dragons:[/u] Konami can't avoid the problem cards of this deck anymore since its topping now. Future Fusion: OTK device, nothing more. Sets up massive plays for Chaos Dragons early game (usually first turn) and makes it very hard to lose once played. Also allows access to deck dumping from Chimeratech Overdragon for more OTKing potential. Not to mention other decks such as being a super charged Foolish Burial with Generic E-hero fusions. Its been needing a ban for a while now, and now that Dragons are topping, it can get the boot! Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon: A 2800 beater that creates advantage every turn it is on the field. No summon requirements means it can be summoned by anything that allows it, causing for lots of abusability. Limiting it is not enough of a hit to this card IMO, it is still searchable via Wyvern, it still can be looped back with Lightpulsar Dragon, and it can still be Summoned by Hieratic's Atem only to keep combos going and OTK. Hitting this will also prevent future issues with the release of Gustav Max (an efficient Extra Deck burner) in sight. [u]Rabbit Dino:[/u] Arguably the best deck right now in the TCG. We see this deck all the time at top tables and its not hard to figure out why. Evolzar Laggia: This card is the card that needs to get hit, not Rabbit (that is my opinion). Rabbit is a fairly balanced card in the sense that priority is gone, you need to run vanillas, and have them in your deck for it to be useful. Just because he has one broken target does not make a balanced generic card broken and it does not need to be hit. Taking the approach Samurai had when Shi En was at 3, hitting the main boss monster of the deck makes Rabbit less explosive and easier to get over. No longer will you need to worry about facing down double Laggias and once you get over one, its clear sailing from there making the deck a lot more balanced to face while not stripping all the power from them away (hence, dollka). [u]Darkworlds:[/u] Another one of these structure decks providing players with most of the cards needed to go around destroying people. Card Destruction: Another card much like Future Fusion, this card, once played can usually end games. Allowing players to combo off of every DW monster in their hand for massive advantage with one card is incredibly overpowered. Not only is it used in DWs but it is also the win condition card for Empty Jar, another bad OTK/FTK deck that exists in the game. So we can effectively kill 2 birds with one stone; yay! Grapha: Also known as 'Grapha the Immortal', Grapha, once in the graveyard, can create so much advantage off of each of the DW's monsters its just not fair. In addition to destroying any card your opponent controls when discarded, this guy is a walking 3k beatstick under their field spell that can almost never die unless removed from the game (hence, immortal). I've seen too many games end with a field full of Graphas beating down the opponent which were all summoned in one turn. Also, by limiting grapha its makes the deck a lot more fair to play against, since once you've banished and dealt with the one plus machine, their fun ends (by fun, I don't mean win condition either, they can still control the field with Virus Traps and othet DW beaters). I will classify this as more of a want since DW’s do not top with majority at YCS’s although the deck does need to be addressed and the argument that “the deck loses G2 and G3” does not make it fair at all. [u]Wind-Ups:[/u] Oh, you don't have Veiler / Maxx 'C' / Crow? Well, say goodbye to your hand. Wind-Ups can still top, wind-ups can still loop your hand away with incredible ease, wind-ups are not fun to plays against. Period. Wind-Up Hunter: Ban it. End the loops. There is no excuse for this combo to exist in the game especially when Konami acknowledges it. Here in the TCG, wind-ups are significantly stronger in the OCG due to the plethora of TCG exclusives crammed into this deck to ensure your hand gets looped. Konami is able to hit TCG cards (see tengu) but they just have to give a s***. Also, the deck can still be a very fun and fast swarm deck without the loop, capable of dropping 3-4 Xyz monsters in one turn while still being a balanced deck. [u]Inzektors:[/u] Simply existing in the metagame does several things: decks now main/side all 3 veilers in total, continuous spell / field spell decks do not exist, a favouring on chainable traps to not get picked off and create advantage for your opponent. Konami knows of the problem they have created and there are numerous ways to fix it with or without killing the deck. Inzektor Hornet: This one is my choice and I am sure many of you will disagree. Without Hornet, the deck is not competitive anymore since you can't +4 and destroy your opponents’ entire field in one turn. I like this one the most other than hitting Dragonfly or Centipede and still having the deck exist only less consistently because of what it does to the meta (said above). The deck simply turns into an Xyz based deck with Ladybug and can still get out fast beaters, which IMO is still a fair deck (much like taking out the loops from a wind-up player). I am open to change, but I just dont like watch as my opponent summons a Dragonfly, equips a Hornet and proceeds to win. This is more of a want than a prediction as I can’t see Konami doing this to Inzektors although I feel it is what they should be doing. IMO, Konami will most definitely limit Dragonfly and think that’s enough. If I am wrong, great, if not, we’ll have more Inzektors in the format(s) to come. [u]Final Countdown:[/u] Stall 20 turns and win. Thats sounds like so much fun for me to play against, oh boy can we play like 10 games in a row? Well no, you can't. You'll probably go into time by game 3 at which point, I will side in Golden Ladybug or Burn cards so I can win because I have higher LP. Doesn't that just sound fair and completely legit? Final Countdown: Hey, if this tops some more it can get banned! Konami already said they don't like these kinds of decks and now its winning thanks to the brokenness of One Day of Peace. But why ban this instead? Because getting rid of these alternate win condition decks is good for the game and will increase more player interaction and skill which is what we need (same thing goes for burn, exodia, empty jar, and decks of that sort). [u]Generic Changes:[/u] Staples and overpowered cards go here. They fit into many decks and are unfair or bad for the game. Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning: Whose idea was it to ever unban this? Fire them. Where to start with why this card needs to go? The fact it can be teched into anything with Veilers and TGU's? The fact you can Reborn / CotH it after it has been summoned and destroyed (which rarely happens since 80% of the time when he's dropped he'll win you the game), the fast OTK's it has with Honest / Armory Arm? And thats just a few of them... Monster Reborn: Way too powerful in our format with all these OPed monsters. Aside from being a topdeck monster lategame, people mainly use it to OTK or push through Warnings and such. I'd even rather have Premature Burial back if brionac leaves instead of ths; or both gone really. Konami has bounced this around from 0 to 1 for a few formats, but this one is too good for it nowadays, especially with the increasing amount of Xyzs we are going to be seeing. Tour Guide from the Underworld: I suppose you could say this is more of a want then a prediction, but Konami logic makes me feel otherwise. For starters, it is getting a reprint so it will be worth less (still quite a bit I think), it is being used in almost everything (a big no-no in Konami books), and TCG exclusives can in fact get put on the list. Now, as for why I want it at 1, TGU is an instant Rank 3 and a card that combos with itself, meaning it is still abusable even at 2. With the increasing number of Rank 3s to our already powerful arsenal of Rank 3 monsters, we can’t have a 1 card toolbox capable of having 5++ options in every deck. At least at 1, it will lose a lot of consistency since you need to have other fiends in the deck to use it other than itself meaning it is not always live. Decks could still get creative in the engines they would want to use in order to fit in this powerful card, but at 3, it has gotten too powerful and would only continue to get more so. (I have also considered the removal of Sangan, but this does not solve the problem TGU presents as well as Sangan not deserving it). Heavy Storm: Basically, you pick a side. Either have Heavy present or not. This is a massive issue as it completely changes the game either way and is not really fair about to discuss as whether or not a single card should be banned or not without looking as what that cards’ presence or lack of impacts the mindset of every player. So having Heavy Storm gives us cases where you can +0 to +4 off of it and win from that advantage or proceed to OTK your opponent. Without Heavy Storm we get a more control based skilful format. Maybe it will be a summon, set 3 to 4 format, but at least its more defensive, slower and skilful (I also took out hornet too in this format btw). We also have 3 MST which we didn’t back in the day as well as many other S/T hate that wasn’t a generic kill everything. And even now we have a lot more Hand Traps and that brand new Night Beam. I feel as though this is worth at least a test for a format at least. There is no correct answer here though. I encourage you all to debate over these choices as well as post your own with reasoning or logic behind them. I know there are very big topics to address like backrow removal, unbanning no longer OPed forbidden cards, and how to deal with the obviously OPed big decks of the format, so all viewpoints are welcomed in order to make the best decisions on what we want as a yugioh community for our banlist. ~ Canadian EDIT: Some choices on here I have pointed out are not entirely predictions of what will happen using 'Konami-logic' and therefore have been stated as 'wants' more or less in the descriptions. Please note this before bashing that this will not all happen, I know it wont, and I don't need to hear that in every other post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I honestly believe Laggia isn't worthy of a limit. Even if it is gone, Konami can always print a Rank 4 Xyz that can be even more broken than him. Besides, outside of Rabbit, Laggia takes skill and dedication to run. With the exception of the Battle Recruiters Dinosaurs have and Evols, Laggia is actually quite slow outside of Dino Rabbit. Even then, it isn't guarenteed that you will go into Laggia on turn 2 or 3 with those decks. There is also a future of Xyz, and with it can come even more broken Rank 4s that Rabbit can make. Rabbit adds consistency to a few decks that need it, but I'm going to quote Pika here: "If a Deck relies on a broken card to live, then that Deck deserves to die". Rabbit is a broken card and can multiply like rabbits even more in the future. Laggia wouldn't be easy to summon without Rabbit, and Laggia is fine card design. I also don't agree with Heavy Storm's banning. It promotes conservative playing (Unless if all of your cards can be activated in any kind of situation such as Chain Burn, then set away) and keeps other decks that can be potentially broken at bay because they need the set 3+ and end to win. This would only encourage even further decks to be hated with Heavy's banning. I agree with Hornet though. That is the one of the cards that needed an abortion in the idea stage. Its only purpose is to abuse Damsel and Centipede's +1 and add even further +1 by destroying the opponent's field. Inzektors would be fun and playable without him because Ladybug is basically a balanced Hornet. Yep, I said it. Now don't crucify me for that little comment, ok YCM? In fact, don't use any methods of death or torture for my post if you guys don't agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazooie Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Kanade's opinion on banlists: [img]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/20758890.jpg[/img][img]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/20758989.jpg[/img] In all seriousness, I honestly don't agree with tons on here. Dragons, Inzektors, and alt wins, are pretty much the only ones I agree with. Dark Worlds: The deck is pretty dead with only one Grapha. He's bad design, sure, but he's not that hard to take care of. The biggest problem I've seen when I've played Dark Worlds is how Snoww grabs anything they really need. Limit Snoww and the deck loses constancy while still remaining a viable deck, since it can't just grab whatever it might need. Card Destruction I agree with. Wind-Ups: The Boat is terrible design. Looping is generally bad for the game, even the bad ones. I remember people complaining about even the BAD Infernity loops, so why are people wanting this decent one to exist? Even if you don't rape the opponent's hand, the Boat is still bad design and should be Limited, but Konami won't do that cause they want to make money. They're a business, you have to accept it. Dino Rabbit: I honestly believe Rabbit is the bannable one here. It just restricts what design Konami can make in the future, kinda like Rescue Cat. Don't get me wrong, I ADORE Rabbit's idea, but the thing is so restrictive in design terms that they can't really make Type or Attribute Limited Xyz without having to think about how Rabbit might affect it. Laggia is kinda... EEeeeh, but Rabbit keeps making things HAVE that Eeeeeh potential. I wouldn't mind of BLS was banned again. Monster Reborn: It's hardly the biggest threat anymore. Is it sketchy? Yeah, but I hardly ever see someone win from topdecking Reborn unless they were already winning. I would never want Premature back, a searchable monster reborn is not gonna be fun to have around. Tour Guide: At one it remains a viable option for Dark World and Fableds, without being ran everywhere because LOL FREE RANK 3 GUYS. I agree with this. Heavy Storm: Do not ban this. Those set 4-5 formats are some of the least fun formats I have ever been in. If you go second and they do that, then YAY HAVE FUN GETTING STUFF DONE. Not to mention, if someone set down +4 cards on the field and get Heavy'd, that's probably their fault. Heavy promotes thinking, but not in the same way stuff like Gorz does. The game doesn't need more help creating mind games. I know during the Set 4-5 formats I always hate trying to make a move cause I'm always thinking about what they have to counter me. It isn't fun. With Heavy Storm formats, hey, "might not want to set everything straight away." It's a lot simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiithepeople Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1337650972' post='5944561'] Some reasoning: My main approach was to take the top decks of the format an address issues with each of the decks that give them an unfair advantage (this is why heroes aren't up there... yet) and then deal with the generic cards which hurt the game more than help it. [u]Dragons:[/u] Konami can't avoid the problem cards of this deck anymore since its topping now. Future Fusion: OTK device, nothing more. Sets up massive plays for Chaos Dragons early game (usually first turn) and makes it very hard to lose once played. Also allows access to deck dumping from Chimeratech Overdragon for more OTKing potential. Not to mention other decks such as being a super charged Foolish Burial with Generic E-hero fusions. Its been needing a ban for a while now, and now that Dragons are topping, it can get the boot! [b]I very much agree with this. After we saw Pulsar-centered decks winning in Toulouse and now Top 2 in Philly, let them get hit. Also, ONE CARD FTK.[/b] Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon: A 2800 beater that creates advantage every turn it is on the field. No summon requirements means it can be summoned by anything that allows it, causing for lots of abusability. Limiting it is not enough of a hit to this card IMO, it is still searchable via Wyvern, it still can be looped back with Lightpulsar Dragon, and it can still be Summoned by Hieratic's Atem only to keep combos going and OTK. Hitting this will also prevent future issues with the release of Gustav Max (an efficient Extra Deck burner) in sight. [b]I can agree with this but to a lesser extent than FuFu. REDMD makes 2 Dragon-centric Decks competitive as opposed to FuFu having its own ONE CARD FTK.[/b] [u]Rabbit Dino:[/u] Arguably the best deck right now in the TCG. We see this deck all the time at top tables and its not hard to figure out why. Evolzar Laggia: This card is the card that needs to get hit, not Rabbit (that is my opinion). Rabbit is a fairly balanced card in the sense that priority is gone, you need to run vanillas, and have them in your deck for it to be useful. Just because he has one broken target does not make a balanced generic card broken and it does not need to be hit. Taking the approach Samurai had when Shi En was at 3, hitting the main boss monster of the deck makes Rabbit less explosive and easier to get over. No longer will you need to worry about facing down double Laggias and once you get over one, its clear sailing from there making the deck a lot more balanced to face while not stripping all the power from them away (hence, dollka). [b]When the next wave of Gem-Knights roll in, then there will easily be even more attention to Rabbit as he and Lazuli will help break them. For now, I agree. The removal of "Priority" changed the landscape of the TCG and Rabbit got the worst of it. No need to hit a profitable card anyway. This is a free Solemn on legs, so sure it's a fine hit. I wouldn't expect it to be hit for long.[/b] [u]Darkworlds:[/u] Another one of these structure decks providing players with most of the cards needed to go around destroying people. [b]Konami's not gonna ban any of these cards. Let's move on.[/b] [u]Wind-Ups:[/u] Oh, you don't have Veiler / Maxx 'C' / Crow? Well, say goodbye to your hand. Wind-Ups can still top, wind-ups can still loop your hand away with incredible ease, wind-ups are not fun to plays against. Period. Wind-Up Hunter: Ban it. End the loops. There is no excuse for this combo to exist in the game especially when Konami acknowledges it. Here in the TCG, wind-ups are significantly stronger in the OCG due to the plethora of TCG exclusives crammed into this deck to ensure your hand gets looped. Konami is able to hit TCG cards (see tengu) but they just have to give a s***. Also, the deck can still be a very fun and fast swarm deck without the loop, capable of dropping 3-4 Xyz monsters in one turn while still being a balanced deck. [b]Konami is still making top dollar off this thing. They're gonna put it to 1 and then also limit Zenmaity for the lulz. Just you watch. But if anything, the smart choice would be to limit or even ban Rat. By hitting it, you cut the hand drop to 2 cards at most. Even better is the fact that the hand drop loop focuses entirely on Rat being able to bring back Hunter. Dropping 2 cards out of your hand is much more agreeable than dropping your entire hand.[/b] [u]Inzektors:[/u] Simply existing in the metagame does several things: decks now main/side all 3 veilers in total, continuous spell / field spell decks do not exist, a favouring on chainable traps to not get picked off and create advantage for your opponent. Konami knows of the problem they have created and there are numerous ways to fix it with or without killing the deck. Inzektor Hornet: This one is my choice and I am sure many of you will disagree. Without Hornet, the deck is not competitive anymore since you can't +4 and destroy your opponents’ entire field in one turn. I like this one the most other than hitting Dragonfly or Centipede and still having the deck exist only less consistently because of what it does to the meta (said above). The deck simply turns into an Xyz based deck with Ladybug and can still get out fast beaters, which IMO is still a fair deck (much like taking out the loops from a wind-up player). I am open to change, but I just dont like watch as my opponent summons a Dragonfly, equips a Hornet and proceeds to win. This is more of a want than a prediction as I can’t see Konami doing this to Inzektors although I feel it is what they should be doing. IMO, Konami will most definitely limit Dragonfly and think that’s enough. If I am wrong, great, if not, we’ll have more Inzektors in the format(s) to come. [b]Konami's getting top dollar again with this jewel. No need to ban it. As you have already known and seen from past YCS results, there's not a snowball's chance in hell this will even be touched.[/b] [u]Final Countdown:[/u] Stall 20 turns and win. Thats sounds like so much fun for me to play against, oh boy can we play like 10 games in a row? Well no, you can't. You'll probably go into time by game 3 at which point, I will side in Golden Ladybug or Burn cards so I can win because I have higher LP. Doesn't that just sound fair and completely legit? Final Countdown: Hey, if this tops some more it can get banned! Konami already said they don't like these kinds of decks and now its winning thanks to the brokenness of One Day of Peace. But why ban this instead? Because getting rid of these alternate win condition decks is good for the game and will increase more player interaction and skill which is what we need (same thing goes for burn, exodia, empty jar, and decks of that sort). [b] What's wrong? You don't like troll decks? The main problem around decks like these is consistency, but of course you're gonna have that ONE crazy deck that defied all odds and topped because of both consistency and sheer luck. You guys went nuts when Empty Jar pulled it off, even more so when Gallis got three(?) spots in the top 24 at some YCS.[/b] ~ Canadian [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Crouton Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 A tad early to start the flood of "banlist prediction" threads... I pretty much agree on everything (that I understand) except: Heavy Storm: It's a good card because it punishes players for setting all their backrow cards instead of just setting the ones they think they'll for the opponent's turn, and hang onto the rest. It encourages the player to think more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jord200 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1337650972' post='5944561'] So we're about halfway through our junky format and the meta is starting to define itself as a rock paper scissors format (which most of us knew would happen 3 months ago). But, there is a light at the end of the tunnel in which the September 2012 Banlist can help put our beloved Yugimonz on the right track again. Most of these changes I feel are feasible and encourage feedback from the community. [b]Banned:[/b] Future Fusion sure. Card Destruction probably. Wind-Up Hunter YES. Black Luster Soldier doubtfull Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon probably. Monster Reborn why? Inzektor Hornet I actually see it limited. Final Countdown? I doubt it. Unless in wins the WC Heavy Storm? NO. [b]Limited:[/b] Grapha, Dragon Lord of Darkworld NOOOOOOO. Evolzar Laggia Rabbit is the problem. Tour Guide from the Underworld As long as it isn't banned I don't care. [/quote] A bit early for this, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 It's way too early, but since this isn't locked yet, I'll just state my opinion: [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1337650972' post='5944561'] [b]Banned:[/b] Future Fusion [b]If REDMD is gone, then very well.[/b] Card Destruction Wind-Up Hunter [b]Wind-Ups have fallen off the map, but Wind-Ups play with themselves for too long, so that's a reason to kill it.[/b] Black Luster Soldier [b]God I hope so.[/b] Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon [b]I still think Konami will be Konami and put it to 1 instead.[/b] Monster Reborn [b]I don't see it.[/b] Inzektor Hornet [b]The most Konami-esque move you could have thought of.[/b] Final Countdown? [b]It's topped in two different countries. There's a chance they may finally kill it.[/b] Heavy Storm? [b]What I just said about Reborn, though I'd actually like this one.[/b] [b]Limited:[/b] Grapha, Dragon Lord of Darkworld [b]Semi'd at best, dude.[/b] Evolzar Laggia [b]Rabbit is the problem that they'll look at, nothing else.[/b] Tour Guide from the Underworld [b]If they'll allow it. Based on Rabbit's success, it would not surprise me.[/b] [b]Semi-limited:[/b] N/A [b]Unbanned:[/b] This is not really important at all. I can put things here if it matters that much to you though. [/quote]Not even gonna look at what they may take off, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manjoume Thunder Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 That can't be a "prediction" because it is ridiculously unrealistic and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Just gonna lay it out there: The Heavy Storm debate shouldn't have one argument saying that it promotes conservative play. Either player's going to be forced to hold back on something because they're not sure whether or not they can break through. Almost every archetype has S/T destroying cards and suddenly people will have to realize that they can't go around blatantly wasting their 3 MST's. There will be conservative play whether or not Heavy Storm is around. All that people are arguing is whether the conservation involves you setting cards to defend yourself. I do believe Canadian is right about a no-Heavy format being more skillful. Hell, TeleDAD is considered the most skillful format and it only had 1 MST! This is a ridiculously fast format, being able to set cards to combat it is healthy in my opinion. I should also point out that hitting Hornet may not kick Inzektors out of Tier. We ARE talking about hitting many other decks. Just because Hornet would be gone doesn't mean that the rest of the Meta is staying up on the same bar. Also two points I wanted to expand on: 1. REDMD will be limited instead of banned. This is Konami we're talking about. They want to address what they see as an issue. REDMD being able to OTK with Hieratics is bad, but they won't want to kill off Hieratics almost completely, so they'll limit it to eliminate the main problem. In Chaos Dragons, sure it can still combo at 1 and it can be searched by Wyvern, but it's extremely susceptible to a variety of banishment cards and the deck itself will have lost quite a bit through the rest of your predicted banlist. Plus this is a mainly TCG deck, so there's that too. Yes, REDMD is a broken-ass card. Yes, it should probably be banned. No, I don't think Konami will send it all the way to hell. 2. Rabbit IS the problem. Verz Rabbit is a deck in Japan, I truly don't believe having one less Laggia will stop it OR Dino Rabbit, and I think Konami actually understands that. The only argument you should be making AGAINST banning Rabbit, is that Dino Rabbit is old, Heroics are new, Artirogius is a card, and Konami likes making money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 >Wants to limit Grapha and Laggia >Completely ignores Gorz >Completely ignores Rescue Rabbit's broken card design >Completely ignores the cards that could realistically come back >Predicting almost 4 months early I'm not even gonna bother reading the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337673432' post='5944770'] I'm not even gonna bother reading the OP. [/quote]but you said... [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337673432' post='5944770'] >Wants to limit Grapha and Laggia >Completely ignores Gorz >Completely ignores Rescue Rabbit's broken card design >Completely ignores the cards that could realistically come back [/quote]Question mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337673432' post='5944770'] >Wants to limit Grapha and Laggia >Completely ignores Gorz >Completely ignores Rescue Rabbit's broken card design >Completely ignores the cards that could realistically come back >Predicting almost 4 months early I'm not even gonna bother reading the OP. [/quote] But you clearly read at least part of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 They won't ban Rabbit because they want to support XYZ. They won't touch Gorz because it stops OTK's, they see it as a necessary evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 You're gonna be so nitpicky that I didn't include "the rest of" in my sentence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted May 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337673432' post='5944770'] >Wants to limit Grapha and Laggia >Completely ignores Gorz >Completely ignores Rescue Rabbit's broken card design >Predicting almost [b]3[/b] months early I'm not even gonna bother reading the OP. [/quote] Well I appreciate your thoughts and opinions. Thank you for the contributions... [quote name='Manjoume Thunder' timestamp='1337663466' post='5944719'] That can't be a "prediction" because it is ridiculously unrealistic and you know it. [/quote] I guess so. For the most part, I feel like these are all things that Konami could do to improve the metagame. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [size=3]As for YCM's general thoughts I am feeling like this is something along the lines that they want: [b]Banned:[/b] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Future Fusion[/background][/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Wind-Up Hunter[/background][/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Black Luster Soldier (this is a must if TGU doesn't go to 1)[/background][/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Inzektor Hornet or Limit Centipede?[/background][/font] [b]Limited:[/b] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon[/background][/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Rescue Rabbit[/background][/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Tour Guide from the Underworld (may stay at 3 still)[/background][/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I am not opposed to the idea of hitting Rabbit, I have also considered it a lot and think it would be alright too.[/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I do doubt Konami will not Ban REDMD because that would be really extreme of them to do something that different.[/font][/size] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I know Konami will probably not touch DW's at all, and I see how wanting Snoww limited instead of Grapha is a viable option. I suppose this one was just my preference. Plus nobody disagrees that Grapha is a terribly-designed broken card (even at 1 I might add). Same thing goes for Card Destruction unfortunately[/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Monster Reborn, like I said, doesn't really matter too much, but I would not have a problem to see it go as our formats are just boss monster / combo pieces one after another with it. If it stays limited, not much will change, it will be a staple and continue to do its stuff.[/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]As for the Zenmaity vs Hunter argument. Hunter is definitely the one that needs to be banned here, not limit Zenmaity. I honestly can't think of more ways to say this other than go test the deck out for yourself without Hunter.[/font] [font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Final Countdown also wont get hit. I just threw it on there for fun to create discussion. Maybe Konami might do something proactive and hit One Day of Peace? Not sure, but the fact remains that those decks are not good for the game.[/font] [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337673432' post='5944770'] >Completely ignores the cards that could realistically come back [/quote] Maybe you should have. If you did, you would know that I was addressing issues of the format's meta. I was not trying to bring things back or figure out what could go from 2 to 3, because they are not the much of an impact right now. Maybe you should get off your high was hell ego-horse and not be so condescending? Especially when you don't contribute what-so-ever it makes you look like an a******. Which I know you aren't, cause you're a pretty cool dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1337692209' post='5944847'] Maybe you should get off your high was hell ego-horse and not be so condescending? Especially when you don't contribute what-so-ever it makes you look like an a******. Which I know you aren't, cause you're a pretty cool dude. [/quote] Hey, YCM don't know that. A'ight, ideas time: Banned: BLS-EotB (Sacky boss, decides games just by being summoned etc etc) REDRUM (Smashes both the TCG and OCG) Rescue Rabbit (They HAVE to take some consideration of the TCG in at some point) Inzektor Hornet (Still consistent enough @1 that it's dumb not to ban) Wind-Up Hunter (If they care about the TCG) FuFu (More of a want than what will happen) Morphing Jar (Maybe I'm bias towards DWs too much, but banning this means you don't really need to ban Card Des) Gorz (Again, possibly more of a want, but who can say they enjoy having Gorz randomly dropped against them?) Final Countdown (s***'s stupidly good now) Might have forgotten something, idk Limited: Zenmaity (Still causes Xyz loops, and have fun stopping 3 of these with Limiter Removal, they just create unneeded OTKs) Tsukuyomi (Because it's fine, and they can at least test it @1) Spore (I can see this coming back without Glow-up because it's not as generic, Lonefire's only limited, Tengu's not so abusable, the obvious stuff) TGU (Do I need to explain this?) Snoww (It's what makes DWs so consistent, without it DWs have to think outside of the box to constantly get the Grapha plays and overall just balances the deck a ton) Again, probably forgot something. Semi-Limited: Call of the Haunter (Makes for really dumb combos in a lot of decks, tbh) Book of Moon (If Morphing Jar is banned, I can see this easily going to 2, if not 3) Agent of Mystery - Earth (May be poor judgment on my part actually with the other ideas for the list, but it seems ok at 2 to me) T.G. Striker (If not @3, honestly the T.G. engine is good but I don't see it being a problem to have it restricted) Blackwing - Gale the Whirlwind (What the f*** is a Blackwing?) Unlimited: Level Limit Area B (What's a level?) Summoner Monk (I don't see how it's too bad to have @3 right now) Miracle Fusion (Cos f*** Hero format, this could even deserve to go to 1 if Heroes became too dominant) Like I said, I probably have forgotten somethings somewhere, but I rushed it and I guess it reflects my idea of the list better than going over all of your decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted May 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337693458' post='5944857'] Banned: Rescue Rabbit (They HAVE to take some consideration of the TCG in at some point) Morphing Jar (Maybe I'm bias towards DWs too much, but banning this means you don't really need to ban Card Des) Gorz (Again, possibly more of a want, but who can say they enjoy having Gorz randomly dropped against them?) Limited: Zenmaity (Still causes Xyz loops, and have fun stopping 3 of these with Limiter Removal, they just create unneeded OTKs) Tsukuyomi (Because it's fine, and they can at least test it @1) Spore (I can see this coming back without Glow-up because it's not as generic, Lonefire's only limited, Tengu's not so abusable, the obvious stuff) Snoww (It's what makes DWs so consistent, without it DWs have to think outside of the box to constantly get the Grapha plays and overall just balances the deck a ton) [/quote] Highlighted stuff thats different than my post. Banning Rabbit? Not limiting it? Why is a single rabbit so problematic? With 1, you'd still need to run 3x vanillas, and the only way to search it would be Gold Sarc (which isn't abusable without TGU > Leviair) and Sangan (TGU is @1). Plus, a single Laggia/Dolkka to come from it isn't a problem. And at least at 1, you could still splash it into deck like Gem-Knights for instant Lavalva Chain. Thoughts? Morphing Jar. I think you care too much about Card Destruction, but I can let this slide as Morphing Jar is another stupid card that is too slow for out current game and is only used for OTK/FTKs. Gorz should go only if we can have Trag @3. I do not like the mentality Gorz creates, and the comebacks from "you should have lost but put a monster with 3k+ attack points on board" gamestates. He probably won't get banned, but I would be happy to see if it did. Zenmaity to 1 [i]alongside[/i] Hunter at 0 and TGU at 1 is a fair idea. The main reason I said Zenmaity to stay at 3 was in terms of dealing with the hand loop. But I can see that even without it, we all know that deck will try to blow up the opponent's field as fast as possible than swing for OTK's. I can agree with this, but if Konami can only choose one thing to do to the deck, I am saying that Hunter is the problem card from it. Tsukuyomi wouldn't do much at 1. Or even off the ban list for that matter. It is essentially a vulnerable-to-monster-removal smashing ground for monsters with 1000 DEF or less that costs you a NS for that turn. Last time I checked, I can't see this being game-changing at all (this really goes for most of the things on the ban list like Tribe-infecting Virus, Magician of Faith, Time Seal, ect... hence why I don't bother to include them, because if they change, who cares?) Spore is once per duel, so it doesn't matter if it is 1 or 3. I think it should stay banned to avoid issues with future plant cards being released. It still fairly abusable +1 with Foolish, One for One, Lonefire. Why try and bring something like that back. Snoww could go to 1. But all you are doing is reducing consistency of an incredibly silly deck, hell, you even let them keep their own Future Fusion. What this does, is like letting Inzektors keep their Dragonflys. It will not be as fast, but will still be able to go off and pretty much win. Like I said before, DW's wont get touched so it doesn't matter. Other things that are less important are things like BoM going to 2. That should be at 3. Its such a healthy card for the game, and the Empty Jar arguement doesn't even matter (not because you banned it, but because 2 more books doesn't break it any more than without them). Konami was just being stupid when they ever decided to limit it. Probably wont come off the list but would be gladly accepted. The rest of the semi-limits wont do anything to the game, so its not even worth talking about. One thing I see you forgot however is Formula Synchron to 3. Not abusable any more and we want it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 @Banning Rabbit: My bad, should've been limited, I've been advocating for Rabbit to be limited for ages now, was a "typo," so to speak, banning it. @Gorz, Trag @3 wouldn't be better, Trag @2 and Gorz @0 seems best to me. @Wind-Ups, Konami will likely only hit Hunter, if they hit them at all, but there is still the restrictive design Zenmaity brings. @Tsuku, I know it's virtually useless, but realistically it's unlikely Konami bring it immediately back to 3. @Spore, fair point, but I don't see the issue with Plants without Glow-up or triple Tengu or double/triple TGU. @Snoww, @1 it seriously balances Dark Worlds. I have tested with only 1 Snoww and the deck is far more fair. Curious as to what you mean by their own FuFu though. Problem with limiting Grapha is the deck is entirely useless, whereas limiting Snoww only hinders it and doesn't kill it. I did also say I can see BoM going to 3, and would like for that to happen anyway. Formula Synchron would see little use anyway, so it's pretty unimportant, but I can see it going to 3 easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Rekindling to 0 in order to kill off one old deck type to get people to buy new cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dementuo Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='TheTurtleOnceCalledGod' timestamp='1337696750' post='5944874'] Rekindling to 0 in order to kill off one old deck type to get people to buy new cards. [/quote] Not with Lavals about to get here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I pretty much completely agree with this list, except I think Grapha should be banned instead of limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Amusingly, I still consider this format vastly better than last March. Now, my opinions, which you have all been waiting for with anticipation. - Future Fusion [b]I have no objection. Very few Fusions are considered more playable just because of this, but it's abusable as hell, especially in Dragons.[/b] - Card Destruction [b]Only Dark World and FTK decks use it. It's godly good in DW. It can leave.[/b] - Wind-Up Hunter [b]PLEASE get banned. I feel bad playing Wind-Ups because opening with Magician + Shark has my opponents scoop. Then I realized it's an instant Wind-Up loop and would probably abuse it if I didnt actually have a soul still.[/b] -Black Luster Soldier [b]I dont know why it's still around. It's less OMG broken than it used to be, but even without Priority, it's not exactly BALANCED.[/b] -REDMD [b]I doubt this will get banned. I see it getting Limited, though. Only 1 cuts down the loop a bit, and prevents Gustaph from being played so easily. [/b][b]I also consider that Atum may need to get hit, too, because of Gaia Dragon making the dead Atum a 2600 Piercer.[/b] -Monster Reborn [b]Call is at 3. This can go away.[/b] -Inzektor Hornet [b]Won't happen. It could and would wipe Inzektors out in a heartbeat, but it also cripples the Deck so terribly that the entire Decktype will become terrible, even with Ladybug providing an Xyz engine instead. Limiting it does no good, so it's either a ban or a heavy limit on Dragonfly, but even that won't be enough due to the Hornet + other Equip combo that lets Dragonfly Summon twice, giving Hornet more destruction options.[/b] -Final Countdown [b]Won't happen. Deck's terrible. One Day of Peace is banworthy more than this. One Day supports ALL OTK/FTK stall Decks, including Exodia.[/b] -Heavy Storm [b]GOOD GOD, NO! March 2011 is still possibly the worst format to ever exist, and you know why? ("Because Shi En was at 3?") Because Heavy Storm was banned and people could swarm like hell, including junk like Shi En or the Naturia Synchros, and then set 4 and annihilate you because you can't do anything with their Warnings and Bottomless, or Fiendish Chain, etc. Or just open with Setting a monster and setting 4. It was NOT a skillful format. It was playing a ton of control-oriented Trap Cards and setting them all with absolutely no retribution at all. With Heavy Storm, they can't do that without a Judgment or Starlight Road Set.[/b] Limited: - Grapha [b]I dont really think that's necessary. I know how it's terrible to have 3 around, but DW aren't really that huge of a meta threat anymore. The same argument is that Hyperion at 3 was terrible to have around, but that got untouched while Earth took the hit.[/b] - Laggia [b]And not Rabbit? I can see Laggia taking some sort of a blow, but Rabbit isnt exactly the pinnacle of fairness, either.[/b] - Tour Guide [b]Agreed. The instant Rank 3 makes Rank 3s trivially easy to bring out, making Leviair/etc better than they should be. Also factors into Wind-Up consistency.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Yeah March 2011 was awful. At least you can -play- this format >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Call of the Haunted~ Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 [quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1337715351' post='5945003'] I pretty much completely agree with this list, except I think Grapha should be banned instead of limited. [/quote] That would outright kill the entire deck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuh Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Guys you cant kill Grapha, Hyperion or any other Structure Deck boss Whats the point in buying the deck when you can't even use the main card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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