Wind-Ups, Why Are They Failing To Win a Major Event.

[El Majishan]

So I've been playing this deck about a month into the current format (end of March, early April) and I can honestly say it is the only deck I actually ENJOY playing (Outside of HERO Beat of course). Yes the loop is super derpy but other than that the deck is amazingly versatile and flexible allowing it to play out of seeming unwinnable situations (except a face up Skill Drain as the deck just auto loses to anti-meta unless you get a hand the allows you to deal with it).

As we saw, the deck is capable of going to distance as it has won many international WCQ (see BehindTheMask's Link in the "Effect Veiler, is maining 3 Smart" Discussion) So why has it not won a U.S event to date? I mean IMO it has the tools to do so just as Inzektors..so what is holding them back?

So give your opinion on the deck and discuss why they haven't won a Major event in the U.S.

[Lonk]

Like Inzektors, Wind-Ups are pretty easy to stop. Unfortunately for Wind-Ups, outside of the loop, they don't have much to fall back on if anything at all. Because of that situation, Wind Ups can't really take anymore tournaments.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Koloktos' timestamp='1340732995' post='5962726']
Like Inzektors, Wind-Ups are pretty easy to stop.[b] Unfortunately for Wind-Ups, outside of the loop, they don't have much to fall back on if anything at all[/b]. Because of that situation, Wind Ups can't really take anymore tournaments.
[/quote]

I would have to disagree with this point. I have won many games without looping the person I'm playing by generally out playing the other guy. The deck has insane plays with Magician and Shark, a Strike Ninja on crack and when played right...they can end with an insane field after only playing 2 cards.

[Resident Fascist]

because they suck?

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Јordan' timestamp='1340734014' post='5962731']
because they suck?
[/quote]

ITT: Decks that suck win French WQC among others.

[This Account is Unplayable]

They lack firepower unless you open insanely well. Players are running 3 Veilers. Priority is no longer a thing so they're much easier to stop.

They underperform against Rabbit and Chaos Dragons, and still struggle against Inzektors. Heroes and Dark Worlds pose huge legitimate threats to them too.

[Dementuo]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1340733735' post='5962729']
I would have to disagree with this point. I have won many games [b]without looping[/b] the person I'm playing by generally out playing the other guy. The deck has insane plays with[b] Magician and Shark[/b], a Strike Ninja on crack and when played right...they can end with an insane field after only playing 2 cards.
[/quote]
Magician + Shark = Hand drop loop
??????

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Dementuo Black Sun' timestamp='1340739462' post='5962767']
Magician + Shark = Hand drop loop
??????
[/quote]

Or you know....A Rank 4 with a Rank 5, or a Rank 4 with 2-3 Rank 3s or Shock Ruler and Random Shark....stuff like that.

If you set your entire hand trying to avoid the loop or burned out you resources.....why would I go for the loop?

[Agro]

1. People don't like wind-ups because of the loop
2. People therefore don't play wind-ups
3. Wind-ups get beaten up on by other decks
4. People therefore don't play wind-ups
5. A Deck no one likes to play doesn't win tournaments

What was the question again?

Oh, right, then here's a better argument.

Final Countdown is fun outside of Final Countdown. It tops and wins international WCQ. Why doesn't it ever win in the US?

[HSektor]

IMO Wind-Up not winning is a good thing. It's like Gishki Hand Control, some people like this deck, some people hate it, but nobody(YMMV) wants it to be meta.

And why nobody wants it? Because a format dominated by Hand Control = NO FUN ALLOWED

[This Account is Unplayable]

It has nothing to do with how fun the deck is. That's a f***ing moronic accusation.

[evilfusion]

Having both played with and against the Deck plenty of times, the biggest reasons the Deck doesn't perform well is...

1- The hand loop nearly guarantees victory, but will leave it sitting if stopped.

2- The loss of Priority weakens some of its key plays in the face of Bottomless Trap Hole. Zenmaity being Bottomlessed will hurt the plays immensely, whereas Wind-Ups shrugged it off when Priority was around.

3- Effect negation, ESPECIALLY Skill Drain, greatly hurts the Deck. The individual monsters have low ATK, and aside from Shark, they don't have much swarm capability that wouldn't fall prey to Veiler or Skill Drain. They are VERY reliant on Xyz Summoning and even their Xyz have low stats.

So while they can work, until Hunter is banned, the only playstyle worth heavy investment into is the hand loop. When I played the Deck, I could often Hand loop on the first turn, but my personal hatred of that combo made me use it infrequently in the hopes of enjoying the Duels. The Deck could still win, but I always had that awareness that I could have essentially won already by using the hand loop. If the only way to play a Deck is a game of solitaire, the Deck is dragged down if the player isn't willing to pursue it.

Now, elaboration on another thing of note:

Most of the top performing Decks can play the long-term game MUCH better than Wind-Ups. Rabbit Decks can drop big monsters with control effects with just one card, and the individual monsters are at least decent stats. With combo cards like Tour Guide and Rabbit within easy reach, and usually backed up with a strong S/T lineup, Rabbit Decks can overwhelm the opponent quickly, or stick around to trade blows for a longer haul.

Inzektors have constant access to Hornet in the Graveyard. If Hornet is not eliminated quickly, almost any card an Inzektor draws and plays could lead to massive card advantage. A topdecked and uncountered Dragonfly with Hornet in Grave can lead to a +4, a HUGE shift in equilibrium for an Inzektor player. In addition, Inzektors tend to run a disruptive S/T lineup to protect Inzektors that have been committed to the Field, further adding pressure onto the opponent. Any cards the opponent commits can be wiped out and give Inzektors advantage, and if they save the cards, they can't get anywhere. Even Gorz and Tragoedia tend to be useless.

What do those Decks have in common? They're able to bring around a huge shift in advantage and pressure with almost no resources. Wind-Ups specialize in combos that require some resource investment to get going, and individually, the combo pieces aren't enough to get going. Inzektors have a Special Summoner in Dragonfly and an excellent archetype searcher in Centipede, both triggered by a Hornet or Ladybug, and can grab the missing piece if you dont have one yet.

Inzektors and Rabbit are CONSTANT threats throughout the game. Wind-Ups lose power if they can't get rolling immediately. Therefore, pressure is always on the opponent to counter every curve the Inzektor/Rabbit player throws, whereas Wind-Ups can be neutralized with just one or two solid, timely counters.

My Photon Sanctuary Deck often noted that in the face of Galaxy-Eyes Photon Dragon, a Wind-Up player was fighting a losing battle if they couldnt get Dark Hole or similar.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1340770425' post='5962955']
Having both played with and against the Deck plenty of times, the biggest reasons the Deck doesn't perform well is...

1- The hand loop nearly guarantees victory, but will leave it sitting if stopped.

2- The loss of Priority weakens some of its key plays in the face of Bottomless Trap Hole. Zenmaity being Bottomlessed will hurt the plays immensely, whereas Wind-Ups shrugged it off when Priority was around.

3- Effect negation, ESPECIALLY Skill Drain, greatly hurts the Deck. The individual monsters have low ATK, and aside from Shark, they don't have much swarm capability that wouldn't fall prey to Veiler or Skill Drain. They are VERY reliant on Xyz Summoning and even their Xyz have low stats.

So while they can work, until Hunter is banned, the only playstyle worth heavy investment into is the hand loop. When I played the Deck, I could often Hand loop on the first turn, but my personal hatred of that combo made me use it infrequently in the hopes of enjoying the Duels. The Deck could still win, but I always had that awareness that I could have essentially won already by using the hand loop. If the only way to play a Deck is a game of solitaire, the Deck is dragged down if the player isn't willing to pursue it.

Now, elaboration on another thing of note:

Most of the top performing Decks can play the long-term game MUCH better than Wind-Ups. Rabbit Decks can drop big monsters with control effects with just one card, and the individual monsters are at least decent stats. With combo cards like Tour Guide and Rabbit within easy reach, and usually backed up with a strong S/T lineup, Rabbit Decks can overwhelm the opponent quickly, or stick around to trade blows for a longer haul.

Inzektors have constant access to Hornet in the Graveyard. If Hornet is not eliminated quickly, almost any card an Inzektor draws and plays could lead to massive card advantage. A topdecked and uncountered Dragonfly with Hornet in Grave can lead to a +4, a HUGE shift in equilibrium for an Inzektor player. In addition, Inzektors tend to run a disruptive S/T lineup to protect Inzektors that have been committed to the Field, further adding pressure onto the opponent. Any cards the opponent commits can be wiped out and give Inzektors advantage, and if they save the cards, they can't get anywhere. Even Gorz and Tragoedia tend to be useless.

What do those Decks have in common? They're able to bring around a huge shift in advantage and pressure with almost no resources. Wind-Ups specialize in combos that require some resource investment to get going, and individually, the combo pieces aren't enough to get going. Inzektors have a Special Summoner in Dragonfly and an excellent archetype searcher in Centipede, both triggered by a Hornet or Ladybug, and can grab the missing piece if you dont have one yet.

Inzektors and Rabbit are CONSTANT threats throughout the game. Wind-Ups lose power if they can't get rolling immediately. Therefore, pressure is always on the opponent to counter every curve the Inzektor/Rabbit player throws, whereas Wind-Ups can be neutralized with just one or two solid, timely counters.

My Photon Sanctuary Deck often noted that in the face of Galaxy-Eyes Photon Dragon, a Wind-Up player was fighting a losing battle if they couldnt get Dark Hole or similar.
[/quote]

I'll have to agree with pretty much every thing you said. While the deck is versatile, the individual cards themselves are sub-par on their own. Unless you get your combos to go off (loops, Xyz pushes ect ect)..you're just sitting there spending resources trying to make it to the next turn to try again. The longer the game goes on..the deeper the hole you're in unless you finally draw into the "nuts" and the person you're playing can't stop your push for some reason.

And yeah...they kinda just auto-lose to Skill Drain.

[Resident Fascist]

Thier only redeeming feature is a hand drop loop. Most of the cards are utter freaking garbage, only made 'Good' by a loop stopped really easily by everything running effect veiler or drain. Which FYI, everyone's running veiler @3, DWs and HEROs have Drain, Chaos Drags probably don't care unless you drop thier BLS, and we all know how much chaos drags love to sack. Rabbit will just negate with Dolkka if they have it, and if not they'll use Laggia. And even if they don't have it, all the generic counters in a no prio format hurt it. Summon zemaity, evac. what do? Summon zenmaity, torrential, what do? You get the idea. And yes, I'm expecting "being counterable is never a good argument" in a moment.

[HSektor]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1340761395' post='5962903']
It has nothing to do with how fun the deck is. That's a f***ing moronic accusation.
[/quote]

Yeah, it does. Please try to imagine a scenario where Gishki Hand-Control, Wind-up Loop and some Lockdown decks are somehow the best decks, I doubt that it would be a good meta.

Wind-up, Gishki and any kind of Hand Control or Lockdown MUST say out of the meta because they would just make the game too frustrating.

Is just my opinion anyway.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Јordan' timestamp='1340798760' post='5963024']
Thier only redeeming feature is a hand drop loop. Most of the cards are utter freaking garbage, only made 'Good' by a loop stopped really easily by everything running effect veiler or drain. Which FYI, everyone's running veiler @3, DWs and HEROs have Drain, Chaos Drags probably don't care unless you drop thier BLS, and we all know how much chaos drags love to sack. Rabbit will just negate with Dolkka if they have it, and if not they'll use Laggia. And even if they don't have it, all the generic counters in a no prio format hurt it. Summon zemaity, evac. what do? Summon zenmaity, torrential, what do? You get the idea. And yes, I'm expecting "being counterable is never a good argument" in a moment.
[/quote]

Ok...now I actually believe you're an idiot. The deck is not just the loop...I still don't understand how people can't see the deck has other legitimate plays.

So what you're saying is....if the guy I'm playing sets his hand....I have no plays and I should auto-lose right?

And yes "being counter-able" is not a good argument and never will be. I can Veiler a Rabbit, does dino Rabbit suck? I can counter a BLS...is it all of a sudden not broken?

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1340814608' post='5963079']
Yeah, it does. Please try to imagine a scenario where Gishki Hand-Control, Wind-up Loop and some Lockdown decks are somehow the best decks, I doubt that it would be a good meta.
Wind-up, Gishki and any kind of Hand Control or Lockdown MUST say out of the meta because they would just make the game too frustrating.
Is just my opinion anyway.
[/quote]

Oh look, it's the opinion card in a discussion based on actual facts.

The thing is, we're not talking about a good meta here, we're discussing why Wind-Ups aren't topping.

First of all, they're not just a hand loop deck, if they were then they'd never even have been hyped because dropping a hand then sitting on 1500 beaters won't win anyone any games, seeing as even Kabazauls is bigger. Second of all, how fun a deck is doesn't make its position any different. Countdown is a legitimate threat now, and no one in their right mind finds it fun to play. The thing is it's an actual good deck and because of that it sees play, and it tops.

Oh and don't be a dumbass and use Wind-Ups and Gishki in the same sentence, Wind-Ups are actually good in games where they can't loop.

[Resident Fascist]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1340815430' post='5963085']
Ok...now I actually believe you're an idiot. The deck is not just the loop...I still don't understand how people can't see the deck has other legitimate plays.
[/quote]

But 90% of the wind-up cards are horrible outside the loop. You basicially play a sub-par deck for a loop that sometimes wins you the game. Rabbit and shark are the only 2 legit good ones I can name other than Zenmaines and Zenmaity. Zenmaio maybe, but he has nothing to do with durr-ups so yeah. It's another combo deck that just dies to anything that stops the combo, which if you hadn't noticed there is a ton in this shitty ass format. Sure it has legit plays, but they arn't as good as other decks and basicially the deck has to loop or lose.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='Јordan' timestamp='1340816263' post='5963088']
But 90% of the wind-up cards are horrible outside the loop. You basicially play a sub-par deck for a loop that sometimes wins you the game. Rabbit and shark are the only 2 legit good ones I can name other than Zenmaines and Zenmaity. Zenmaio maybe, but he has nothing to do with durr-ups so yeah. It's another combo deck that just dies to anything that stops the combo, which if you hadn't noticed there in a ton is this shitty ass format.
[/quote]

Stop being an idiot.

[Resident Fascist]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1340816408' post='5963089']
Stop being an idiot.
[/quote]

What other plays can wind-ups do except the loop other than making Xyzs with shark and whatever?

[HSektor]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1340815879' post='5963087']
Oh look, it's the opinion card in a discussion based on actual facts.[/quote]
>Try to be polite and civil
>Get an a******-ish answer
Oh, dear Lord.

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1340815879' post='5963087']The thing is, we're not talking about a good meta here, we're discussing why Wind-Ups aren't topping.

First of all, they're not just a hand loop deck, if they were then they'd never even have been hyped because dropping a hand then sitting on 1500 beaters won't win anyone any games, seeing as even Kabazauls is bigger. Second of all, how fun a deck is doesn't make its position any different. Countdown is a legitimate threat now, and no one in their right mind finds it fun to play. The thing is it's an actual good deck and because of that it sees play, and it tops.

Oh and don't be a dumbass and use Wind-Ups and Gishki in the same sentence, Wind-Ups are actually good in games where they can't loop.
[/quote]

I know that they aren't just a hand loop deck, I'm just saying that I hate that Hand Control gameplay of them and that I hope that they don't top and stay undermeta/Tier 2...well, unless that Konami bans Hunter and release more XYZ spam Wind-ups for them, then I'd love to see the deck topping.

And why Wind-up isn't topping? People on this thread already stated the reasons: no priority, underperforming against rabbit and inzektors, lacks firepower, etc.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Јordan' timestamp='1340816263' post='5963088']
But 90% of the wind-up cards are horrible outside the loop. You basicially play a sub-par deck for a loop that sometimes wins you the game. Rabbit and shark are the only 2 legit good ones I can name other than Zenmaines and Zenmaity. Zenmaio maybe, but he has nothing to do with durr-ups so yeah. It's another combo deck that just dies to anything that stops the combo, which if you hadn't noticed there is a ton in this shitty ass format. Sure it has legit plays, but they arn't as good as other decks and basicially the deck has to loop or lose.
[/quote]

So every wind-up deck that has ever topped an event looped 2 out of their 3 games every time? Every game that I won where I didn't loop, or the loop was stopped was because I got lucky?

Yes it is a combo deck, and like all combo decks if you stop a key play the player is put into a tight situation, But a good player with a well built deck can play out of it unless its an absolutely, positively unwinnable situation.

And the individual Wind-Up cards are good. Rat is a one card Rank 3 (Or Rank 4 if you main Warrior), Shark is a great swarming card, Magician nets you a +1 on any Wind-Up effect that can lead to a field of big Xyzs and Rabbit is a Strike Ninja on crack. The only bad thing about the Wind-Up Monsters is the fact that they are very small and can be easily ran over by just about anything.

[Resident Fascist]

Well I don't play wind-ups so I know little about them so I had best shut my mouth. Still, after winning like 85% of the time after being looped. Idk? The other player was obvs just bad.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1340817871' post='5963098']
>Try to be polite and civil
>Get an a******-ish answer
Oh, dear Lord.
I know that they aren't just a hand loop deck, I'm just saying that I hate that Hand Control gameplay of them and that I hope that they don't top and stay undermeta/Tier 2...well, unless that Konami bans Hunter and release more XYZ spam Wind-ups for them, then I'd love to see the deck topping.
And why Wind-up isn't topping? People on this thread already stated the reasons: no priority, underperforming against rabbit and inzektors, lacks firepower, etc.
[/quote]

Ok, so me saying that you're trying to defend everything you say by saying it's an opinion, when the thread, and what I said, is based around actual fact is being a******-ish?

Rest of your post said virtually nothing important anyway, so I'll just leave it at that.

[Resident Fascist]

So I went and looked it up. They do have other legit plays other than the loop. I was wrong, I apologize. Also Chris's posts have a point, yours was just a opinion, lol.