evilfusion Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Wind-Ups do have plays other than the loop. The point I made earlier was that when given the decision to make a solid opening (non-loop) play, or go for the hand loop that nearly guarantees victory early game, there's almost no reason to do anything but the loop, unless the player running the Deck despises that strategy (like me). It's like Infernity with several Launchers. You COULD run it solidly without the loop, but the loop is so overwhelming that you're running the Deck inefficiently to ignore that strategy. Wind-Ups hit the same thing, but with the weakness of having several huge flaws in its combos that could strip its abilities in a long-term game. Inzektors and Rabbit can fight a long-term fight and they strip away the opposing resources via control and destruction. Wind-Ups threaten the hand much more than the Field, so the smaller the opponent's hand relative to their Field presence, the less Wind-Ups can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSektor Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1340819613' post='5963112'] Ok, so me saying that you're trying to defend everything you say by saying it's an opinion, when the thread, and what I said, is based around actual fact is being a******-ish? [/quote] Trying to be polite =/= Defending Your ego is overflowing. OT: I wonder how fun must be a match between Chaos Dragons and Wind-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 [quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1340839233' post='5963232'] Trying to be polite =/= Defending Your ego is overflowing. OT: I wonder how fun must be a match between Chaos Dragons and Wind-up. [/quote] "in my opinion" doesn't change how polite something is. The use of the opinion is basically saying "This is what I think so you can't say otherwise" when in the game of yugioh - guess what? I can! I haven't even been flaunting my ego, but what relevance does that even have? It's more fun to just watch Wind-Ups, at least they take legitimate skill to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synchronized Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Wind-Ups are an interesting Deck. They have a lot of decent combos, despite being awful to play against. I absolutely hate playing against them because there's such a lack of player-player interaction. You pretty much just sit there while your opponent goes through the loop, and that's insane. Plus, Tour Guide makes the loop all the more consistent. Outside of the loop, though, it's a skillful Deck that does have a lot of plays. It's just too susceptible to Veiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 I'm happy to see people saying the deck takes skill to play.. As to the Wind-Up vs Dragon question....Wind-Ups have a hard time when facing down turn after turn of 2500atk+ beaters. Even if I loop you...chances are I'm helping you set up your grave to OTK me in a few turns....so you're usually forced to go super aggro game 1 and win before they set up then play defensively game 2-3 and make a big push when you have the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synchronized Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 The Deck takes skill, but don't get me wrong, the loop takes 0. The loop is the reason the Deck is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 I know what you meant, the deck is skilled, the loop is derp. The thing is most people believe the deck is just the loop and nothing else...so they believe its a skill-less deck. Thats why most bad players using Wind-Up lose unless they get the loop off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 It's like how a lot of people think all Dino Rabbit can do is drop Rabbit, or how all Inzektors does it summon Dragonfly, use Hornet and +4, or how all DWs does is discard Grapha. If anything, it proves how little knowledge they have of a deck and how they dislike those decks for virtually superficial reasons. Heck, imo, lose Chaos Dragons from the game and you have a pretty ok format, not a great one but it's a ton better than the current mess we have, they're the truly skill-less deck, but even they actually take knowledge and skill in how they have to play out some of their moves. Problem is that doesn't really go for most of their moves, but I'm getting off-topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1340842924' post='5963249'] It's like how a lot of people think all Dino Rabbit can do is drop Rabbit, or how all Inzektors does it summon Dragonfly, use Hornet and +4, or how all DWs does is discard Grapha. If anything, it proves how little knowledge they have of a deck and how they dislike those decks for virtually superficial reasons. Heck, imo, lose Chaos Dragons from the game and you have a pretty ok format, not a great one but it's a ton better than the current mess we have, they're the truly skill-less deck, but even they actually take knowledge and skill in how they have to play out some of their moves. Problem is that doesn't really go for most of their moves, but I'm getting off-topic... [/quote] I agree, The one deck I can honestly say I hate playing against is Chaos Dragons. The level of sack they have is pretty amazing. Its funny...because I saw a Youtube video of that Dragon Duelist Girl person...who is supposedly one of the better dragon players saying the deck was going to suck when it first came out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Everyone thought the deck was going to suck. No one came up with the idea of the Lightsworn engine and stuff till later. DDG is a disaster player. Anyone who's known for being a good dragon player probably looked at the deck based on if it had legitimate control strategies like Disaster. That's why they said it sucked. And Chris, don't even lie, if Chaos Dragons didn't exist, you'd still be complaining about Rabbit and Inzektors. Just like before Chaos Dragons showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1340847032' post='5963265'] Everyone thought the deck was going to suck. [b]No one came up with the idea of the Lightsworn engine and stuff till later[/b]. DDG is a disaster player. Anyone who's known for being a good dragon player probably looked at the deck based on if it had legitimate control strategies like Disaster. That's why they said it sucked. And Chris, don't even lie, if Chaos Dragons didn't exist, you'd still be complaining about Rabbit and Inzektors. Just like before Chaos Dragons showed up. [/quote] But the deck COMES with a LS engine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1340847032' post='5963265'] And Chris, don't even lie, if Chaos Dragons didn't exist, you'd still be complaining about Rabbit and Inzektors. Just like before Chaos Dragons showed up. [/quote] Maybe you didn't notice, but I was one of those people defending the format before Chaos Dragons came along. I actually enjoyed the Rabbit/Inzektor big 2 (you can't really count Wind-Ups, but if you want then go ahead and call it a big 3) with a couple of lower decks (Heroes and Dark Worlds, specifically) thrown in. It was a lot better than the bs Chaos Dragon crap flying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1340847177' post='5963267'] But the deck COMES with a LS engine.... [/quote]Solar Recharge did not come with that deck. And no one thought of actually using it till later. The deck came out in the TCG in February. You didn't see any of these Chaos Dragon decks doing anything until April when Petter Gross won YCS Toulouse. That's two whole months of absolutely nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1340863524' post='5963319'] Solar Recharge did not come with that deck. And no one thought of actually using it till later. The deck came out in the TCG in February. You didn't see any of these Chaos Dragon decks doing anything until April when Petter Gross won YCS Toulouse. That's two whole months of absolutely nothing. [/quote] I never said it came with GOOD Lightsworn engine. And the deck took 2 months to make a splash because everyone was still riding Rabbit's and Inzektors' dick. But the fact the deck did well in 2 different countries (winning Toulouse and taking 2nd in Chicago) in the same weekend proves the deck was seeing play a relative amount of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1340869750' post='5963354'] I never said it came with GOOD Lightsworn engine. And the deck took 2 months to make a splash because everyone was still riding Rabbit's and Inzektors' dick. But the fact the deck did well in 2 different countries (winning Toulouse and taking 2nd in Chicago) in the same weekend proves the deck was seeing play a relative amount of play. [/quote] It was nowhere else in Toulouse at all and only like 3 people ran it at Chicago. I think the point that you're missing here is that in yugioh some decks just take a while to find their real use or optimal build. I mean look at Dark Worlds, when we first got SDGU people were slapping random cards like Into the Void in, and running multiples of Sillva/Goldd and even Ceruli. It took time for an actual concrete deck to be built, because a lot of the time this game is all about trial and error, it just means that trial and error took a while with Chaos Dragons. You are also right in that people were dickriding Rabbit and Inzektors, because of this people just didn't feel like testing out a new deck, naturally slowing the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1340870054' post='5963357'] It was nowhere else in Toulouse at all and only like 3 people ran it at Chicago. I think the point that you're missing here is that in yugioh some decks just take a while to find their real use or optimal build. I mean look at Dark Worlds, when we first got SDGU people were slapping random cards like Into the Void in, and running multiples of Sillva/Goldd and even Ceruli. It took time for an actual concrete deck to be built, because a lot of the time this game is all about trial and error, it just means that trial and error took a while with Chaos Dragons. You are also right in that people were dickriding Rabbit and Inzektors, because of this people just didn't feel like testing out a new deck, naturally slowing the process. [/quote] I guess I should clarify what I mean by "relative amount of play." I was speaking on more of a small scale level (lolocal, small regionals, lolDN) Because I remember being OTK on DN by the deck while it was still OCG only....so the deck was around. But as we agreed...people just had more confidence decks that were already proven to be capable of winning/topping. Then that weekend happened and everyone hopped on the dragon wagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Guys. Wrong YCS. It was Dallas, not Chicago. Chicago was two/three weeks later when everyone started running it. And it's just that it seemed like Chaos Dragons took so much longer to come out and fight. It really didn't take that long to figure out Dark Worlds, but Chaos Dragons took two months, which in Yugioh terms can actually be considered a notable expanse of time. But yes to the dickriding thing. Even so, it wasn't that deck that everyone saw coming from a mile away. Dark Worlds were really expected to top and do so much up until the first YCS. It took about a week after the Chaos Dragon's announcements for people to stop talking about them. Sure, it may have been the meta slowing the process down, but it could also be attributed to how bad the cards looked. Also should note that Chaos Dragons became much much better once the banlist came into effect. LPD and REDMD don't really give a s*** about a double TT format. Also... what were we arguing again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1340870777' post='5963360'] Guys. Wrong YCS. It was Dallas, not Chicago. Chicago was two/three weeks later when everyone started running it. And it's just that it seemed like Chaos Dragons took so much longer to come out and fight. It really didn't take that long to figure out Dark Worlds, but Chaos Dragons took two months, which in Yugioh terms can actually be considered a notable expanse of time. But yes to the dickriding thing. Even so, it wasn't that deck that everyone saw coming from a mile away. Dark Worlds were really expected to top and do so much up until the first YCS. It took about a week after the Chaos Dragon's announcements for people to stop talking about them. Sure, it may have been the meta slowing the process down, but it could also be attributed to how bad the cards looked. Also should note that Chaos Dragons became much much better once the banlist came into effect. LPD and REDMD don't really give a s*** about a double TT format. Also... what were we arguing again? [/quote] You're right....it was Dallas. The thing with DWs was that... people ran bad builds when they first came out AND For their 1st YCS EVERYONE sided for them...so the players running it would win game 1 (maybe) then just lose games 2 and 3 to the side deck. I think we were taking about Wind-Ups then it just turned into a meta discussion...now its a deck evolution discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiithepeople Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1340760636' post='5962892'] 1. People don't like wind-ups because of the loop 2. People therefore don't play wind-ups 3. Wind-ups get beaten up on by other decks 4. People therefore don't play wind-ups 5. A Deck no one likes to play doesn't win tournaments What was the question again? Oh, right, then here's a better argument. Final Countdown is fun outside of Final Countdown. It tops and wins international WCQ. Why doesn't it ever win in the US? [/quote] Because an 11-year old beat it in Philly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Windups actually have a respectable amount of representation here at the wcq at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted July 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 [quote name='byakksmodeus' timestamp='1341109740' post='5964593'] Windups actually have a respectable amount of representation here at the wcq at the moment [/quote] Really? Thats good. What are you running by the way? And how did you do day 1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 [quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1341118769' post='5964703'] Really? Thats good.[/quote]lol, look at the top tables https://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=9919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted July 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1341119638' post='5964705'] lol, look at the top tables [url="https://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=9919"]https://www.konami.c...oh/blog/?p=9919[/url] [/quote] Lol, I died at the lack of Dragons. I really hope they win....they need at least one US win before the list hits them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=10033 Top 16: 9 Dino Rabbits 5 Wind-Ups 1 Chaos Dragon 1 Anti-Monster What was that about not doing anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 People stopped preparing so much for Wind-Ups, when they're still incredibly volatile. Simple. Also, I doubt a lot of people even considered the possibility of playing them so they didn't test for them. And Chaos Dragons are awful, but we already knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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