Cold Wave...an Intelligent Discussion.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1343286577' post='5989184']
No prio doesn't change anything. You still can't use any of your spell and trap cards to get anywhere if this is played.

Hand Traps existed before Cold Wave was banned. To bring it back because "the format is s*** so people run a lot of hand traps" can't be your argument.

It's broken, only enables OTKs, even decks that shouldn't be OTKing, and discourages conservative play, it shouldn't come back. The few formats between its ban and now has not changed a thing about that.
[/quote]

Did you miss the part where I said OTK decks should not exist? Or the part where I said only OTK decks can abuse it? Or the part where I asked if this is the problem or are the OTKs the problem?

I don't think Cold Wave is the problem, the problem is the fact that OTKs exist. If the game removes OTKs...or decks that gain massive advantage from little investment, playing a Cold Wave just simplifies the game state for 2 turns.

[Master Hyperion]

If you really think Cold Wave is just solely used for OTKing, then you're horribly underestimating the card.

Yes, it does make OTKs easier like with Trunade and Heavy because its backrow hate, but the fact that it also locks down alot of options down for the opponent by shutting down alot of monster hate/draw cards/search cards only rewards mindless overextension that can't push for game and can push for game next turn anyway, because your opponent cant use anwsers during your turn, during their turn, or set an anwser for your next turn.

The only anwser to Cold Wave is Veiler, but you can only run 3 of them and people still run alot more Spell & Trap cards.

Yes, there are decks that OTK that get the job done by using Heavy and Trunade alone, but it would be pointless to bring Cold Wave back because it only gives power to any swarm deck that can't OTK immediatly.

[Miror B]

[quote name='Miror B.' timestamp='1343266820' post='5989006']
Suddenly Veiler becomes the ONLY out rather than AN out.
[/quote]
You missed this.
Yes we have Veiler. But Cold Wave makes it so that we rely only on Veiler. I don't see how that's anything but bad at all.

[Legend Zero]

Hand Traps existing is no excuse for one card being able to shut down 2 important types of cards completely.

[Expelsword]

I was shocked when I was able to use Hieratics to OTK [i]without using any magic or trap cards the entire [s]game[/s] turn.[/i]
The two things can't coexist, and that's only [i]one[/i] of the myriad of decks that will increase in lethality and decrease in vulnerability.

[This Account is Unplayable]

Might've just missed it. But did no one actually mention how it also shuts your opponent down on their next turn too?

[~Brian~]

Most top decks run only Solemn Judgment for negating Spells and Traps. If you play this card, you're guaranteed to either get ~4000 LP off your opponent, or gain 2 turns and overextend fearlessly.

It should not come back. Also, it was designed 1. for the anime and 2. almost 10 years ago, when the monsters couldn't do so much themselves.

[El Majishan]

Ok, all valid points...but I'm sure we all agree that the OTKs/cards that grant massive advantage with little investment should not exist in the first place...that is the main argument here....with a meta where OTKs and "herp derp I play two cards and win" situations don't exists...what can really abuse Cold Wave?

It shuts down Spell/Traps on both turns....so in this "perfect" meta...I would be able to make my play under the protection on your Cold Wave...Back in Saber format....people would Cold Wave and try to go off and I would just Vieler then proceed to go ape s*** with my own Saber play under their Cold Wave....bad example because it was a stupid format, but I think you get the point.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1343315756' post='5989382']
Ok, all valid points...but I'm sure we all agree that the OTKs/cards that grant massive advantage with little investment should not exist in the first place...that is the main argument here....with a meta where OTKs and "herp derp I play two cards and win" situations don't exists...what can really abuse Cold Wave?

It shuts down Spell/Traps on both turns....so in this "perfect" meta...I would be able to make my play under the protection on your Cold Wave.
[/quote]

A "perfect meta" can no longer exist.

In an [i]ideal[/i] meta, this card wouldn't exist anyway, because it shuts down your opponent, and you can essentially do what you want for 2 turns.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Vengevine' timestamp='1343315822' post='5989383']
A "perfect meta" can no longer exist.

In an [i]ideal[/i] meta, this card wouldn't exist anyway, because it shuts down your opponent, and you can essentially do what you want for 2 turns.
[/quote]

It shuts you down as well.

[~Brian~]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1343316110' post='5989384']
It shuts you down as well.
[/quote]

It kills player interactions. Besides, you'd not really play this card while you're depending of Spells and Traps, obviously.

Even on an ideal meta, this would just delay the OTK, making it a 2TK or 3TK. Unless you mean that, in the ideal meta, hundreds of cards had to not exist, which well, is kinda impossible.

[Expelsword]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1343316110' post='5989384']
It shuts you down as well.
[/quote]
Monsters are becoming more powerful.
Are you a bad enough dude to fight against them?

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1343316110' post='5989384']
It shuts you down as well.
[/quote]

That's as stupid as saying running Rai-oh in Heroes shuts you down.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Expelsword - 黎明' timestamp='1343316268' post='5989386']
Monsters are becoming more powerful.
Are you a bad enough dude to fight against them?
[/quote]

[img]http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/457/challenge.jpg[/img]

Yes, yes I am.

[Expelsword]

[quote name='Vengevine' timestamp='1343316429' post='5989391']
That's as stupid as saying running Rai-oh in Heroes shuts you down.
[/quote]
Just like Duality shuts decks down.
Card Car shuts you down moreso than Cold Wave yet it's still used. The benefit it provides in return is great (and for Cold Wave [i]too great[/i]).

[El Majishan]

@Sword and Chris


Not really, take the Saber example I gave.....as much as you guys don't want to accept that hand traps are relevant to this discussion...they are. We do not have to rely in Spell/Traps to stop plays, we have more options as players because the game has evolved. Also you have to accept the state of the meta determines how good a card/deck is to some degree. For example LS...they have arguable the most broken boss monster at their disposal....but they are not doing jack s*** in the meta because the game has evolved to the point where LS just cant compete. Another example is Summoner Monk...I remember having an argument right here in the TCG section with Ctrl on its usefulness and the general direction the discussion went in was that Veiler makes Monk not as good as it once was.

So having these hand traps available to us actually makes a difference, playing Cold Wave leaves both plays open if the play is stopped by an alternate method.

[Expelsword]

Veiler alone cannot stop OTKs all the time.
Unless you know a secret to magically start with one every game.

[Master Hyperion]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1343317455' post='5989405']
as much as you guys don't want to accept that hand traps are relevant to this discussion...they are.
[/quote]

But they did bring it up in the discussion as a relevent subject. The problem is that there a few hand traps that actually do a good job actually preventing your opponent from winning and they still dont do as much as a good job as most Spell & Traps in this game, because you still have to deal with monster(s) itself. Cold Wave still locks your opponent down, so even if they do Veiler it, they still cant do anything about the monster(s) on the field, since his/her Spell & Traps are still locked by Cold Wave, unless they burn through all through their monsters resources.

Oh, and good luck always drawing Veilers at the right time in every duel and using Veilers against every deck.

[This Account is Unplayable]

So you still want to force us to use hand traps?

Well, your ideal format is f***ing horrendous, then.

[Toffee.]

[quote name='Expelsword - 黎明' timestamp='1343317884' post='5989407']
Veiler alone cannot stop OTKs all the time.
Unless you know a secret to magically start with one every game.[/quote]
Which is what the video on Page 1 implied.
Cold Wave gets played~
Do you have Veiler/Maxx? Yes -> Gg, You win
Do you have Veiler/Maxx? No -> Gg, you lose.

[mido9]

The only way for this card to really come back would be to make you get punished less for being left wide open with wave by slowing down the meta to a grinding halt(like goat control slow),and even then cold wave would probably suck afterwards.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Vengevine' timestamp='1343318626' post='5989414']
So you still want to force us to use hand traps?

Well, your ideal format is f***ing horrendous, then.
[/quote]

It its not forcing you to play hand traps....but it is available. And guys lets be honest....we are not forced per say to play hand traps...we play them because they are good...even if the format did not require us to main 3 Veilers...we would still run 1-2 because it is a good card and it can hit first turn plays which spell/traps can't.

In the ideal format OTKs and free massive advantage do not exist....I'm looking at you Expel...because you keep bringing up OTKs. The ideal format would be slow...no massive advantage off derp plays ect ect. Yes you may be locked down for 2 turns...but with no massive advantage to be gained....how can cold wave be abused?

Hyperion's point is interesting...While dealing with their monster is an issue, they also have to deal with yours as well.

[This Account is Unplayable]

So, setting up a play, you then proceed to drop this. Your opponent can no longer influence the duel outside of their monsters as you proceed to finish all of their LP over 2 turns.

f*** yes, fairness.

And no, in an ideal format, you don't need hand traps, because they're not that amazing. You can actually use other cards to stop plays and you don't absolutely need to stop everything your opponent does.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

[quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1343318744' post='5989415']
Which is what the video on Page 1 implied.
Cold Wave gets played~
Do you have Veiler/Maxx? Yes -> Gg, You win
Do you have Veiler/Maxx? No -> Gg, you lose.
[/quote]
What are you going to do with all those useless spells and traps you draw with Maxx C? Your deck would have to be monster-centric to recover from whatever the opponent managed to pull off. Especially considering most traps people use only activate when a monster is Summoned.

[~Brian~]

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1343329302' post='5989507']
What are you going to do with all those useless spells and traps you draw with Maxx C? Your deck would have to be monster-centric to recover from whatever the opponent managed to pull off. Especially considering most traps people use only activate when a monster is Summoned.
[/quote]

I'd obviously draw into 3 Reckless Greed to KEEP DRAWING CARDS